Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-3: Combat Roles; Carbineer
What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?
The carbineer in the current SWG is the joke combat profession. When people find out their holocron wants them to master it, they groan and complain. It's the least favored, and the least effective of all the fighting professions. The carbineer should be a highly respected class, feared for their abilties to use the most commonly seen weapon in the whole Star Wars universe.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The carbineer should be the single-most deadly blaster class in the game. The carbine is the standard weapon of the regimental armies of the droid corps, the clone troopers, the Rebellion, and the Imperium. These four major players in the Star Wars universe wouldn't keep using carbines unless there was a specific reason for doing so, and my reasoning to that is that they're fast, accurate, and accumulate damage quickly.
What offensive abilities?
The carbineer should excel in offensive ability. Range modifiers should be geared to be best in the mid-range section (32m average), but this shouldn't limit the gun to being almost completely useless at close and far ranges. Our current laser carbines are optimum ranged at about 52m, which is closer to being a rifle than a carbine. Also, at the pointblank range, there should NEVER be a -50 or worse to hit a target. Carbines are designed to fight at mid-range, as well as up close.
What defensive abilities?
There shouldn't be a whole lot of defensive capabilities. Since you're trying to hit a target with a gun, your ability to shield yourself from damage is going to be an afterthought (your primary thought is killing the opposition). So no benficial abilities to resist damage.
What unique abilities?
Carbines should be the fastest weapons in the game. This is due to the fact that they're held very similar to a rifle (butt against the shoulder), which reduces recoil and increases aiming ability, thus allowing you to crack shots off faster. You could compare the carbine to the modern day submachine gun: fast, accurate, and able to transport easily with two hands. Because of their high rate of fire, they should be the lowest damage-per-shot of the blaster weapons.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Yes. A "cover" option should be given to a carbineer to benefit his friends. Since the weapons can fire at a high rate of speed, you could spray an area with fire to cause the enemy to duck for cover. This would allow your friends the ability to advance without taking as much damage, as the enemy is more focused on avoiding getting hurt than trying to attack back.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
As a blaster-wielding class, they should be your standard fighters. They should interact as they have in the past.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The carbineer should be the most independant combat profession, since soldiers from every walk of the Star Wars saga used them either in squads, or when on their own.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
If any class shouldn't be unique, it's the carbineer. Almost humanoid MOB that exists in SWG should be using a carbine weapon unless there's special reason for them not to be.
AzSteve wrote:
*a bunch of stuff in the first reply*
AzSteve didn't just hit the nail on the head, he finely crafted both the nail and the hammer, using 1000 quality materials with100% experimentation, then had a perfect to hit roll, and slammed that nail so far into the carbineer class that I felt it sitting in my chair at home. That is what a carbineer is, plain and simple. Just make sure the specials involved work correctly this time, please?
P.S. If you're reading this post, you've scrolled too far into this thread. Go back and read AzSteve's reply and just stop there!
AzSteve wrote:
*What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?
Based on the in-game and the in-movie descriptions, the Carbine appears to be the average trooper weapon- the assault gun or SMG of the Star Wars universe. The Carbineer is not a casual combatant, as might be said of a Pistoleer, and is certainly not a one-shot one-kill person like a Rifleman. He is your base of fire in a firefight.
*What basic combat elements should they possess?
The Assault Rifle is supposed to provide a base of fire that supports and can be supplemented by your heavy weapons guys (Commandos) and snipers (Riflemen). The Carbineer should be able to generate a large volume of fire, with AoE effects second only to the Heavy Weapons line. Only the highest-level specials should be able to one-shot a typical PC, but a Carbineer should be able to do significant damage to multiple targets simulataneously.
*What offensive abilities?
Crowd Control. Pinning. Slowing the enemy down. Basically, AoE specials that will either do group KDs or group Slows on the targets.
*What defensive abilities?
Suppression Fire. Covering fire that reduces the enemy's chance to hit. Basically, specials that will reduce the ranged to hit modifier on enemies within the AoE.
*What unique abilities?
Honestly, I beleive that the only fire combat AoE attacks should be held through Carbines or Heavy Weapons. The SWG Pistol should be able to shoot VERY fast, but at single targets and with low damage per hit. The SWG rifle should deliver devastating damage on a single hit, but with a slow rate of fire. The SWG carbine should be faster than a rifle, slower than a pistol, and do damage somewhere between the two with a high emphasis on AoE.
Also, things I would love to see for ALL professions would be some more thought about profession-specific gear and weapons. For example, we have the Elite Carbine as something only a Carbineer uses. I think there should be more types of Carbineer-specific Carbines, just as there should be more Pistoleer-specific pistols etc. But there should also be a set of Carbineer-specific armor with a couple of skill mods built in.
*Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
A group with some Carbineers should be able to pin down a crowd of mobs while the snipers and heavy weapons guys pour fire on specific individuals. A group with three Carbineers, a Rifleman and a Heavy Weapons guy should be able to take on a set of 10 white-con mobs, and in the end have the Carbineers drop about five or sixof them, the heavy weapons guy two or three and the rifleman two or three.
*How could/should they interact with other professions? What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
I would like to see more done with Squad Leaders in terms of commands that effect specific types of combatants. For example, a command to extend the ideal range for a rifleman, a command to grant a pin or KD bonus for the Carbineers of the group, etc.
*What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Not sure there are any unique abilities specific to the GCW for Carbineers, but I think they need to be seen as the much-needed foot soldier for both sides. An army made up only of heavy weapons guys or snipers should not be able to survive. An army of pistoleers might survive, but almsot die of old age trying to inflict enough damage to kill the enemy. An army of many types should rule.
Alyc Voleslayer of Kauri
Ranger, Carbineer, Bounty Hunter, Scout, Medic
Role in combat - People want a ranged profession to have KD also, and I loved KD as a carbineer even after it was reduced, but melee have a tough time catching ranged as is and this would make it even tougher. Maybe you could make ranged KD ranged, and melee KD melee. That would be fair. Then I could see a KD for carbineer. (sorry bout the double post...posted before I was done...)
What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?
This may sound funny at first, but this is very well thought out.
The carbineer's role is to save the Riflemen and he can do this by reclaiming his military given right of playing the role of "Gunner/Heavy Gunner" that was wrongly given to the Riflemen and prevents the Riflemen from truly being what they are, which isSnipers. Currently the Rifleman is consided to start out as the "basic infantry man", and them move into two advanced roles as a "Sniper" and a "Heavy gunner".
First off, the "basic infantry man" is a master marksman. That is unquestionably what the master marksman is. Those who are experts with a rifle are selected to participate in sniper school, and not gunner or heavy gunner school. This is not questionable.
Carbineers are sub-machine gunners. Submachine gunners and are more related to machine gunners and the act of laying down supression fire than are snipers/riflemen.Since sub-machinegunners are experts in urban/city combat at midrange, they serve very little purpose in open area fightingwhere most PVP takes place.
It wouldmake since to have the carbinees put theirurban fighting weapons (carbs-submachine guns)in their packs and switch toGunner/Heavy Gunner weapons (heavy carbs-heavy machine guns possibly on tripods)when in openareas.
In a offensive situations, the carbineers would lay down suppression fire and cover fire while melee types, flame thrower commandos, bountyhunters,and pistoleers charge the enemy to get close enough to attack. The Riflemen would be behind the carbineers firing at targets of opportunity, specifically ones that are not moving.
In a defensive situations, the carbineer wouldlay down "Suppression fire/AoE" and keep the enemy at bay while Rifleman are firing long distancesas the enemyadvances towards the defensivepositionof the carbineers team. When the enemy breaches the carbineers fire, the melee types, pistoleers, bounty hunters and flame throwing commandos engange the enemy and the rifleman burst run away or put down their riffles and heal their team members with stimpacks.
To sum it up,carbineers shouldbe the unique rapidfiring machinegun/submachine gunners, which allows the Rifleman to hide/conceal themselves, fire muchslower,and actually snipe.
R2DT Transmission: "Carbaneers, you are the riflmens only hope"
Transmission ends:......................................................................
MasterNerfSlayer wrote:I'm sorry all this garbage about making carbines being slow and weak is ridiculous. Machine guns do high damage due to the speed they fire at not the accuracy they have, and therefore should be the fastest firing profession in the game, with probably the lowest accuracy, but dealing high damage to multiple targets.
Carbines are automatic. Pistols are not. Pistols should be the mid range of firing speed, and do much less damage than a carbine. Lots of strange people in this world with no idea of the difference between a colt 45 and an M4.
Except from a game mechanic standpoint, the "speed" of a weapon is really governing how fast you recover from shooting at a particular target. The period of time between when you open fire on one target, and are next able to select another target if you so choose, is what the speed represents. I agree, carbines are automatic -- but I think that from a conceptual standpoint, we fire nothing BUT bursts, which just get reported to us as "middling speed, midrange TOTAL damage." Pistoleers, while firing slower individual shots, are more versatile in that they can choose a target, fire once at it, choose another target, and be ready to fire before a carbineer can do the same. Another surefire indicator that weapon speed represents target acquisition and selection speed is this -- rifles in SWG are almost all automatic, as well.
I agree, though, if that's the choice the devs make, it needs to be reported to us as a burst that does xxxx damage in the chat box.
I'm sorry all this garbage about making carbines being slow and weak is ridiculous. Machine guns do high damage due to the speed they fire at not the accuracy they have, and therefore should be the fastest firing profession in the game, with probably the lowest accuracy, but dealing high damage to multipletargets.
Carbines are automatic. Pistols are not. Pistols should be the mid range of firing speed, and do much less damage than a carbine. Lots of strange people in this world with no idea of the difference between a colt 45 and an M4.
What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
A Carbineer is a frontline troop soldier. The carbineer should have thespeed of a pistoleer and the presision of a rifle man. They take the two an balence them into an art, not leaning to either of the extremes. They are powerful in their understanding that a carbine is a toolmade for the purpose of stopping an oncoming rush, or confusing the enemy. At the same time, they havethe weakness that they are not perfect and they as the middle man will take a lot of damage if they intend to hold of enemies. They can't hit from outside an enemies range the way a rifleman canand cannot handle a point blank attack the way a pistoleer probably could.The carbine is used for supression and to pin down enemy troops. Status effects are key here, confusion, stun, dizzy. A carbineer is the master of controling the actions of his opponents. The carbine useris a balence of the two polar opposites of pistol wielding and rifle wielding.
What offensive abilities?
As stated above, carbines are able to create a confusin in the enemy by the presice skill or aiming on the fly. A Carbineer should be able to shot legs if they choose, along with other limbs to hamper the enemies reaction and retaliatory capabilites. Carbine were originally made for use on mounts, an accuracy bonus from mounts would reflect this.
What defensive abilities?
As they take a brunt of attacks, the carbineer would receive a form of
What unique abilities?
None, beyond waht the capabilites of thier skills and training allows. If they have point blank training, then they should be able to hit the enemy, but not with as much power of a pistoleer. Range roles need to be defined.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
They allow the enemy to be pinned andconfused long enough for other group memebers to kill him.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
A carbineer needs support to heal the damage he would take on the front and to attack enemies his weapon cannot allow him. They carbineer has balence, but his range should take balence too. He needs to have a back up if a creature is fast and can remain in point blank range. Carbines can hadle close range, but not everto the extent a pistol or a sword could.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
A carbineer needs a good medic to heal the damge he takes as a frontline troop on the battlefeild.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
They are the frontline troops on the battlefield. They are used to route enemy movements and to fortify troop lines.
Kaffis wrote:
MasterNerfSlayer wrote:
I'm sorry all this garbage about making carbines being slow and weak is ridiculous. Machine guns do high damage due to the speed they fire at not the accuracy they have, and therefore should be the fastest firing profession in the game, with probably the lowest accuracy, but dealing high damage to multiple targets.
Carbines are automatic. Pistols are not. Pistols should be the mid range of firing speed, and do much less damage than a carbine. Lots of strange people in this world with no idea of the difference between a colt 45 and an M4.
Except from a game mechanic standpoint, the "speed" of a weapon is really governing how fast you recover from shooting at a particular target. The period of time between when you open fire on one target, and are next able to select another target if you so choose, is what the speed represents. I agree, carbines are automatic -- but I think that from a conceptual standpoint, we fire nothing BUT bursts, which just get reported to us as "middling speed, midrange TOTAL damage." Pistoleers, while firing slower individual shots, are more versatile in that they can choose a target, fire once at it, choose another target, and be ready to fire before a carbineer can do the same. Another surefire indicator that weapon speed represents target acquisition and selection speed is this -- rifles in SWG are almost all automatic, as well.
I agree, though, if that's the choice the devs make, it needs to be reported to us as a burst that does xxxx damage in the chat box.
Good point. Makes more sense when viewed that way. But then I must complain about the graphical component of the carbine firing. From a programming standpoint that should be all client side stuff... game just says yup, you fired this shot, so execute this animation, and it should be a rapid fire animation, not this slow stuff that's in the game as it is.
Yes, i believe carbine should be the fastest firing weapon, low accuracy, high damage. It is an automatic. Therefore, running really shouldnt affect the accuracy too much, cuz the accuracy is not needed to suppress people from closing in. You just need to send a blastacross their nose to keep them at bay. So bad accuracy to start with, standing still or running.
My main thing about carbineer, is the carbines currently in-game. They suk! Elite carbine is useless. I have seen pistols that blow a carbine away on speed and damage all the way. It is true you can get a laser carbine to a higher damage than pistols, but the ratio is all wrong. A 1.2 speed pistol with 300 max dmg, will maul a laser carbine with 3.3 speed and 350 max damage. Its just all screwed up. Not to mention the special attacks. Pistoleer can snap off about 10 or so special attacks before killing themselves, than does anywhere from 500-1500 damage to a target, where carbineer snaps of 3 special shots that dont even compare to the pistoleer damage, and they fire these shots off slower. HMMMMM, crap. complete garbage. I personally like carbines, just the concept behind them. A Front-Line Troop. I would like to be that. But its just not there. This profession needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. Maybe more that once, lol. I'm sorry but a TKA should have about a 50% chance of getting near a carbineer. He should not want to go near a carbineer, not even in range. Unless he has a carbineer friend laying down suppression fire for him, so he can get close to him.
And another thing, are these posts even monitored at all? There are no replys from any Devs on these threads.Was just wondering if we were just discussioning this with ourselves or it actually had a point. (fixing carbineers)