CUEmu - Thread Posts

Kiashia

Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:36 pm

I can say the BE crits are very odd. You can crit fail and change a stat your not even experimenting on.

Kiashia [90 Elder Jedi, 90 Spy, 90 Medic, 90 Bounty hunter, 90 Commando] The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi. The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart.

nnn((((((((((~~nnnn]~~9X9ggggggggggggggggggggg)

TroThorns

Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:44 pm

#392

Thunderheart wrote:

Jei_Lightfoot wrote:

You can get a critical success?

Yes - - with the same frequency.

And thanks to everyone in this discussion. This has been not only a great discussion thread but a lot of great info has come up and its been interesting

There are a few different issues, but all of them are being considered for development improvement.

For weaponsmiths there is no way that it is at the same rate... it is close for architects.

Tro Thorns - Master Architect (semi-retired)
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East of Keren, Naboo, Ahazi
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Knocky

Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:28 pm

#393

Thunderheart wrote:

Jei_Lightfoot wrote:

You can get a critical success?

Yes - - with the same frequency.

And thanks to everyone in this discussion. This has been not only a great discussion thread but a lot of great info has come up and its been interesting

There are a few different issues, but all of them are being considered for development improvement.

This a shame those "Amazing Successes" do not mean anything to a Tailor.

We get all the risk...and ZERO reward.

PadreBook

Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:54 pm

#394

Thunderheart wrote:

Jei_Lightfoot wrote:

You can get a critical success?

Yes - - with the same frequency.

And thanks to everyone in this discussion. This has been not only a great discussion thread but a lot of great info has come up and its been interesting

There are a few different issues, but all of them are being considered for development improvement.

If you mean Amazing Success yeah maybe they happen at the same rate, but it doesn't appear that way. If there is actually a 'Critical Success' then your system is totally out of whack, because that is something I'm not familar with, and I've been a Master Artisan/Master Architect (human)for 4-5 months now and I'm not seeing it.

Padre

0smspiff0

Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:08 pm

#395

"I actually do get these in the same frequency, however I feel like when I am at the lower end of the skills I should be getting a ratio closer to 8% Crit Fail and 3% Crit Success, and when I'm at the upper end I should be getting a ratio closer to 3% Crit Fail and 8% Crit Success."

The quality of components should also be taken into account... it should be easier to screw up with bad quality things and easier to do well with good quality things.

Also factor into it the rarity of the item - this fixing the issues of BEs (5 very hard to get DNA samples gone), Jedi issues (5 Pearls gone), and weaponsimts issues (Kyrat tissue gone) etc...

No Sig for now... stay tuned

ArchmagiCaT

Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:42 pm

#396

Thunderheart wrote:

Jei_Lightfoot wrote:

You can get a critical success?

Yes - - with the same frequency.

Uhh… no. Well, ok honestly make the text displayed is the same frequency, but in my experience a critical failure will basically turn the item to 0%, and ALSO will make you unable to experiment on that stat anymore (stays at 0%). If you get "amazing success" it goes up a little bit more than normal. Statistics are nice and all, but theydon't work in real life most of the time. I flip a quarter four times, I'm going to get 2 heads and 2 tails right? Well statistically I will.

The other main problem is the loss of resources. Though by that I mean rare resources. No one really cares of they lose 18 metal or anything. They do care if they lose Krayt tissue, or RIS armor peices, or Krayt Pearls. I am not a Jedi, but I really feel sorry for them. They have the worst crafting system in the entire game. They get 0 experimentation, and when they fail it really hurts. They lose their current weapon, which cost a lot to make, and they lose pearls. Worse than losing factory crated items and other nice rare loot we find. It shouldn't be 100%, that is a bit beyond what one should expect. The game should be fun though. It isn't fun when you lose hard to get items because the -master- crafter you brought it to somehow managed to break it.

---------------
Wizard CaT- Sunrunner (Master Smuggler) (Master Medic) (Master Pistoleer) (Master Merchant) (Master Scout) (Master Marksman) (Master Entertainer) (Master Image Designer) (Master Artisan) (Master Brawler) (Master Rifleman) (Teras Kasi Master) (Master Doctor) (Master Combat Medic) (Master Fencer) (Master Swordsman) (Master Bio-Engineer) (Master Commando)

REvon

Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:48 pm

#397

I was crafting a lot today and I counted failures.

Out of 63 attempts I failed 6 times.

In the 20 before that I failed 3 times.

Not good at all.

\m/
I look out my window and see it's gone wrong
My court is in session and now I slam my gavel down
\m/

Ackeko

Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:37 am

#398

While I appreciate you guys looking into this, I think most of us have noticed things that require much more documentation. There seems to be several variables that affect the success/failure rate. Also, the % increase/decrease rates seem to be out of whack.

Some of the variables that I would like to see tested:

1. Different skill levels. I found I had much better success rates as a novice crafter than I did at master.

2. Class specific. Does any class fail more than others? My experience tells me yes.

3. Tools. This is really sad, but as a master BE, I picked up novice artisan, tried to crit fail my crafting tools for the -15 rating and found a novice architect to do the same with my crafting station. I had WAY better luck with junk tools.

4. Documented % increase/decrease (intended) per experimentation point used. Should a marginal success = +1-2%, should a good = 3%-5% should a critical failure really = -12% per point spent?

5. Resource quality. I found (again) that I did better with garbage materials. That has held true for me in nearly every class I have been.

6. Schematic complexity. Does a complex schematic 20+ have a higher chance of failure than lvl 5 complexity schematic?

Example: Novice medic grinding away with whatever is handy to make stim A's. Using tools I made myself with whatever was handy yielded less critical failures than my master doctor using great tools/resources.

Food for thought: Most masters don't sit around all day grinding out their wares. Its not cost effective. Most use schematics in thier factories to produce the hundreds of items they wish to make. Therefore,a master is technically doing less crafting than a novice, yet notices the critical failure rate is fairly high. In fact, most plan on it. When crafting a schematic for someone, I ask them to bring me enough resources to make 4-5 schematics. I have the utmost confidence that I am going to fail at least 3-4 times while trying to make that schematic for someone.

Since you have the tools to make this happen, as well as reliable reporting, it would be great if you could undertake the testing and report to us, and perhaps orrect any problems.

Thanks!

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Meplorium

Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:19 am

#399

Thunderheart wrote:

Jei_Lightfoot wrote:

You can get a critical success?

Yes - - with the same frequency.

And thanks to everyone in this discussion. This has been not only a great discussion thread but a lot of great info has come up and its been interesting

There are a few different issues, but all of them are being considered for development improvement.

Critical success in crafting do not exist. Either you make the item you are making or it crit fails and you lose the item. I have never gotten a second item while crafting, ie the critical success. I have only lost items due to crit fails. It isn't balanced in any way, unless you are saying actually making the item that is being crafted is a crit success. When you do craft it tells you this item assemply was a good success, or a great success, all of which is meaningless as it makes no difference on the final product.

Experimenting is different where an amazing success is possible and does show a benefit. However a failure pretty much distroys any item where experimentation maters. The amazing successes are nice, but don't really add that much to it, especially if you are a master and only one stat can be experimented on. For items with multiple stats that can be experiemented on such as food, it is very important to get an amazing success to make that schematic. Keep in mind though that anything less than a great success is a critical failure in those cases, ie you are not making a schematicfor Breath of Heaven after getting a moderate success or even a good success during experimentation. It is either amazing or great success, anything else is crit failure.

The system is high scew toward failure and with crafting critical fails, there is no flip side of the coin. You either make an item or you lose it, there is no critical success where you end up with two items instead of one to make up for all the other items you lose due to crit fails.

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Marstil

Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:54 am

#400

I would like to see the crit fail / success rates change as one progresses from novice to master. It should be just enough that a master knows that they used to fail much more as a novice.

One problem I see in this thread is that from the dev side, a critical failure is when an assembly goes bad.

Whereas, the players tend to think of a critical failure as not only when the assembly goes bad, but also when any experimentation attempt is a critical failure, or just not a great or amazing success.

IMO, resources should continue to be consumed on critical failures (architects too) and that these failures happen about 2% at master, 7% at novice and that similar numbers are used for the experimentationfailure rates (of course if tool/station effectiveness counts, it should modify after the base (7%-2%) chance.)

Taking out the item / resource loss upon failure would hurt the game, the crafting system is quite nice as it stands, making it easier by removing the chance of loss or waste will not improve anything.

**I was an architect in beta and again in the live game, I had to deal with critical failures that consumed the entire structure, I see that architects not only failed to reduce prices to reflect that they no longer loose resources upon failure, but prices have went even higher.

BarneyL

Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:10 am

#401

Chrysalide wrote:

Assembly attempts: 1448
Assembly critical failures: 65
Assembly critical failure rate: 4.49%

Of course Bio Engineers have to do two combines, one to make the DNA template and a second to put the template into a body. This would effectively give us double the faliure rate making it 9% over all.

I know other crafting skills have sub components that can be lost too but these tend to be of lower value compared to the final combine. For a BE you're risking your DNA, the only thing valuable in the process not once but twice.

And this isn't even considering that frequently to produce what we want we then need to re sample the dna from the resulting creature (subject to critical faliure) then use it to make a second creature (subject to two more critical faliures). It wouldn't suprise me if some players going for 4t or 5th generation pets were facing a 50% plus chance overall to get a faliure that wipes out all the work....

Masen

Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:17 am

#402

A master artisan should never lose more than 50% raw resources, and NO one should lose crafted components, or looted ones, in a critical fail. Period.

No I don't have a freakin sig. Just make something up and pretend it's here man. woman. umm...Whatever.

Kiashia

Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:18 am

#403

BarneyL wrote:

Chrysalide wrote:

Assembly attempts: 1448
Assembly critical failures: 65
Assembly critical failure rate: 4.49%

Of course Bio Engineers have to do two combines, one to make the DNA template and a second to put the template into a body. This would effectively give us double the faliure rate making it 9% over all.

I know other crafting skills have sub components that can be lost too but these tend to be of lower value compared to the final combine. For a BE you're risking your DNA, the only thing valuable in the process not once but twice.

And this isn't even considering that frequently to produce what we want we then need to re sample the dna from the resulting creature (subject to critical faliure) then use it to make a second creature (subject to two more critical faliures). It wouldn't suprise me if some players going for 4t or 5th generation pets were facing a 50% plus chance overall to get a faliure that wipes out all the work....

BE's also experiment on 2 stats for each line giving them 2 chances to fail for every attempt.

Kiashia [90 Elder Jedi, 90 Spy, 90 Medic, 90 Bounty hunter, 90 Commando] The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi. The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart.

nnn((((((((((~~nnnn]~~9X9ggggggggggggggggggggg)

Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Crafting Critical Failure Rates