Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-10: Combat Roles; Pistoleer
han solo used it, why shouldnt I? or was Han just a lousy gunfighter? He was obviously an amatuer for using a DL-44 right...right?
/slaps self for crummy memory.
Tavian Brae'Monte
--tempest server
/Signature under revision (Rev. SE-311-DE-MMO-010-B)
/begin rant
Ever see the movie "Equilibrium"? That is a master gunfighters role... barring the lack of emotion...Thunderheart, if you havent watched this movie please do so. maybe youll see why us master gunfighters are so pissed at the devs for effectively neutering our profession. We should be feared for our singularity, not the fact that were all expert bounty hunters/ pistoleers/ smugglers becuase our profession is to gimped to stand alone. heck id settle for adding some more skill points to attain master gunfighter, as long as we could survive in the PvP arena without dabbling.
/end rant
Sorry that was my critical post of the day... /smiley
Tavian Brae"Monte
--tempest server
/Signature under revision (Rev. SE-311-DE-MMO-010-B)
I disagree. We shouldn't be able to shoot faster than anyone. We should be able to shoot fast at high accuracy, and low damage, but not quite as fast as Carbineers. After all, what is a carbine but a machine gun? Compared to carbineers, we should throw down slightly less shots per round of action, at less damage per shot, but at greater accuracy. We should have more defense against specials, and more defensive movement (dodge, shot on the run, etc etc.)
Basically TH, I believe that once you take ALL factors in to consideration, we should ALL be putting out the same damage, say in a minute. Carbineers throw out lots and lots of fire, each shot fairly dangerous, but few likely to hit. Riflemen, far away, low rate of fire, big hits, high accuracy. Pistoleers, close up, hard as heck to hit, very accurate, less shots of lower damage, but over time, they all add up the same.
PvE: Becuase of these changes, a pistoleer would have deminished PvE abilities as most aggro creatures do so at 64meters. I suggest some missions be formed that play to the pistoleers strength in more closed in enviorments. Line of sight, wall dynamics and such need a serious look to make this happen.
*April as the development target: I like many have playing this game since it's June debut. The community has been crying for this balance for months upon months. Please please do not make us wait until next June for a new better-working combat system. It's insulting to those who have been providing postitive feedback and suggestion for the past 3/4 of a year.
I'd like to give my opinion in respect to role interdependency. This necessitates comments on the role of other professions but only as relevant to interdependency.
I think when a group has a target closing on them at 64 to perhaps 50yds they should take huge damage from rifles but dramatically less under 50 (they range numbers are meant strictly as examples. At 55 to 35 yds, they should be pinned down by massive barrages of carbine fire which do only moderate amounts of damage but make it difficult for the enemy to advance, ie-keep them on there bellies.
The caribeener should do moderate damage from 5-64meters giving them the largest range of effective distance, with little penalties confirred at the extreme but the 35-55m range be when their dizzy, knockdown, lower posture shots (if they don't have all of these they should, but i've never played caribeener) really shine. This will allow moderate amounts of damage from the riflemen who's damage has been decreased at this closer range, and small-mod damage from pistoleers who are firing at the upper limits of their range.
Pistoleers should have a max range of around 50-55 meters with low accuracy and low damageabove 35 meters. Under 35meters accuracy and damage should be moderate (not uber, but certainly significant). Then once the target is within 10-15meters pistoleers should give out a pounding.
I think a stationary pistoleer should be easy meat. However, a moving pistoleer should continue to be very accurate and give out damage determined by range but also be very difficult to hit with high def vs. most things. He can be hard to hit, perhaps give him a harrassing shot (which unleashes a flurry of decreased accuracy decreased damage shots that make it difficult for the target(s) to think let alone give out damage (melee or ranged). without this harrassing/flurry shot, they are a little easier to hit but now they have increased accuracy and give out more damage.
You should not want to be inside 10 to 15 meters with a strafing pistoleer unless you are melee and then it should be a battle to see if melee cankd the pistoleer and stay in the 5m range at which point the pistoleer watches helplessly as he dies(perhaps get rid of all of these bonuses at 5m?). And as i mentioned the stationary pistoleer should be a cinch to hit at any range with any skill level (novice marksman) and should have a mod that increases the damage they take (this mod should not be affected by armor).
Inside 5m no melee fighter should take any significant damage from a rifle or carbine. Only small amounts from infrequent pistol hits, as at this distance i would imagine they could evade shots, strike limbs, and even restrain arms making melee useless while they continue to knock you senseless. Not the RLrules do or should apply to SWG, but in general, a surpise attack by a person with aknife againstlawenforcement with a holstered weapon, less than 15meters-much less 5m-away results in a dead or seriously injured officer. Though pistoleer that continues to move should continue to be difficult to hit or kd (again decrease or eliminate these bonuses against melee inside 5m?).
I think the Harrassing/flurry shot should be a unique advantage to pistoleers and i ABSOLUTELY AGREE that pistoleers should have a duel wield (masters only) that infer a significant advantage. This should only infer max damage when using identical pistols from a factory crate, as this would allow for the precise balance required to properly duel wield pistols. Not saying duel wield should only work with ident pistols (though i'm not opposed to this), but ident pistols should confer max accuracy and damage IMHO. Dual wield could also, perhaps confer a moderate chance of a posture change (posture down, kd, or dizzy-doesn't matter to me) because i think an extinctive reaction to a dual wield (at least the times i've had some whip out 2 glocks at me :biggrin
has been to hit the floor.
Ok, so alot of these ideas need quite a bit of fleshing out, but to summarize the pistoleer aspects:
Max range 50-55m
mild-mod damage with decreased accuracy above 35m
Mod damage, fair accuracy 10(15?)-35m
Rarely misses and hits fairly hard (but not to near the extreme of a rifle) 5m-15m
reduce bonuses inside 5m making pistol whip essential to survive
Easy to hit with a mod to increase damage (not affected by armor) when standing still
Tons of defensive bonuses, and a nightmare to hit when strafing and attacking.
minimaldetriment or bonusesto accuracy conferred by motion ORposture changes.
DUAL WIELD!!!! (Master Pistoleer only) Perhaps with identical pistols. maybe make it useless at distances over 20meters? confers a periodic chance to posture change (posture down, kd, or dizzy). slight decrease in accuracy that is more than compensated for by doubling your fire rate resulting in an overall increase in damage (though not a increase in damage per hit).
Harrassing shot (Flurry shot?)-That has low accuracy for small amounts of damage but infers whichever state decreases your opponents accuracy (blind?).
Perhaps an evade command-stops returning attack and focuses on not getting killed. To give a chance of surviving a rifle attack while closing a 60meter gap
No other posture change or state conferring attacks besides bleed and those already mentioned.
That's about it. I'm sure some of these suggestions are impractical but it's how i see the pistoleers role in combat and how they should intertwine with other ranged/melee classes
The pistaleer is basically the fast moving, fast shooting, get up close and blast things away person. To start with all the weapons need their range modifiers changed A LOT. The rifles should suck at under 30 or 40m, and the pistals should at more then 30-40m. The basic idea of pistals is that they a short range where they are accurate, but are fast firing, and keep the shooter very mobile. Thusly, the pistaleer should have some good defences, like a fencer, not nearly as high of course, to represent how they are dodging, weaving, rolling, diving around. The pistoleer should be the only ranged profession that hits the fastest weapon speed. Period. A master rifleman or master carbiner should not get that fast.
The pistoleer is the ranged combatant that is up close, almost as close as the melee prof. For this they need some kind of good defences, against ranged attacks not melee ones. They should still be nearly as vuln to melee as the other ranged profesions. The melee defence is a great skill for them and shows how they are used to being up close in combat, and have some minor skills in getting out of trouble there. I see the pistoleer as the ones just behind the melee classes, running around, blasting the targets the melee is on, making for some minor ranged support and close up crowd control. They are moving in and out of the enemies, helping to keep them distracted and annoyed, while the melee pound on them, and the riflemen snipe at from afar.
The pistoleer need some better working specials. Actually the once we have are pretty good as they are titled and their descriptions, but not in functionality. The disarming shots need to do just that. They need to disarm or "represent" disarming someone. I mean in most all westerns, and such shows with some a great "pistoleer" they are shooting the weapons out others hands. They are close enough to see the hand, and accurate enough close up to hit it. What I mean by "represent" disarming is this. Say I hit you with disarmshot1, you get a 5 second delay against making an attack. At disarmingshot2 a 10 second delay. The delay shows that you have had your weapon shot out of your hand, and trying to get it back or get another one out.
Fanshot should be fanning out and be an AOE attack against multiple targests. The pistoleer should get a AOE suppression fire shot. This should work just like the normal suppresion fire in Ranged Support, but a AOE so multiple targets. Doesn't need to do damage, just posture change multiple targets. This would fall into the roll of close up crowd control. Either for the melee to get there and get on the targets, or so the targets dont run up on your farther out ranged like the rifleman.
The skill mod for accuracy while moving is great and should stay. Not sure what its max is at master but should be at least +75. To show how the pistoleer fights close up, moving around, dodging, running, diving. The BS 3 need to work better, for it doesn't do as well as Bodyshot 2. At master there needs to be some class definning ability. The disarmingshot 2 with 10 second delay would be good I think, and maybe something else.
Besides changing the rage mods on ALL weapons, the pistoleer needs to have a couple different weapons besides just the DX2. The damage on pistols should not be as high as a carbine, and no where near as high on a rifle. But it will be very fast, with pistoleer, and if you are with in say 30m very deadly and accurate with it. The pistoleer should be about flair and style, up in the battle, where blaster bolts are flying everywhere.
Excellent ideas all around. I'll try to offer one of my own:
Most of us agree that there are basically three foundational in-game functions that distinguish pistols from carbines from rifles:
1. Weapon speed
2. Weapon damage
3. Weapon range
Here is what I think of when I think of pistoleer:
Light weapon that deals out lower damage but very quickly.
Close range, and can be accurate while moving.
Easier to hit moving targets.
Accurate damage, should be able to target specific parts of body/ham pools.
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
I think the Pistoleer role in combat should be the gunslinger profession. With the Rifleman Profession they should have both range and damage with thier speed lowerfor more a'sniper' profession. Careful aiming and precise powerful damage. The carbineer should be more of a shotgun profession. Best at close range and powerful damage but can splash damage and very innacurate.
With the pistoleer they shouldhaveless damagebut remain far more accurate than the carbine.
With the pistoleer they shouldhaveless range but far faster than a rifle.
Since this profession is a key requirement of the smuggler profession Ifeel a thief mentality is key to this line. Not to powerful, butQuick and Precise.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Speed, accuracy, and the ability to affect the pools you want to damage in certain situations.
What offensive abilities?
Head Shot, Body Shot, Leg Shot, Arm Shot, etc. As much as I love health shot I think that would be better for higher damage professions. We should be the class that gets to choose where our damage goes where others get the better damage and less choice of how it is applied. I think that other abilities like blinding, wounding, and more deadly skills should go under dirty fighting for smugglers so that if the gunslinger does wish a darker road he can pick up some skills there.
What defensive abilities?
With a quicker and lighter weapon comes the ability to maneuver. Running and dodging fire should be a part of that.
What unique abilities?
Shooting aweapon from a persons hands would be amazing. Disabling thier ability to use a weapon for a short period. But over all else TWO PISTOLS AT ONCE! ^_^
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
We should be just another hired gun in group combat. Providing light damage to key targets and picking off the weak, but mostly relying on our speed to stay alive while others deal damage and take damage.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
The hired gunslinger should really be a focus. Two pistoleers calling each other out, a light bodyguard where a refinedhand is needed, and living with the knowledge that while that carbine user across the table may kill you with one shot, you can strike first and dodge if you can catch him off guard.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
I think that if you need to take down a powerful force you will need to gather a few pistoleers together to win, but if you have some rifleman taking shots from a distance and carbineers waiting for the charge, the pistoleer can rush in and stike people who are damaged with certain HAM pools.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Introduction
The gunfighter is as much of an icon of the Star Wars universe as droids, bounty hunters, and jedi are. Scenes of blaster fire being deflected by jedi masters, crowded hallways being held down by pistoleers like Han Solo and Queen Amidala’s guardsmen against hordes of stormtroopers and battle droids: this is the stuff of Star Wars legend
The people shooting those blasters are who we are here to look into in this post.
What defines the Pistoleer role in combat?
Quite simply: supremacy in combat from 8m-32m. In my mind, the melee radius should be dominated by the brawlers and their elite counterparts. Beyond the reach of a fist, sword, or pike but still “up close and personal.” This is where the pistoleer should strike fear into the hearts of men.
Sure the carbine and rifle toting soldiers are the most accurate and efficient from a long distance – but the pistoleer should absolutely dominate them in all ways in their ideal range.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The Pistoleer first and foremost should shoot faster than any other ranged profession – both at the novice level and at the master level. The bread and butter attack mode must reflect this. If the combat changes involve a new focus on the default auto attack mode of damage dealing, then pistols need to fire faster than other weapons. If the focus shifts to the use of special attacks, Pistoleers need more +Pistol Speed to allow this.
The Pistoleer should be the most accurate in the 8m-32m range. I’m talking Teras Kasi Master level of accuracy up close. Simply: a Master Pistoleer should never miss when they are around 12m away from you. As an aside: a Master Carbineer should hit most of the time, but certainly not near 100% of the time up close. The Master Rifleman should miss most of the time up close with a rifle. There must to be an incentive for carbineers and riflemen to run away from melee range and for pistoleers to close the gap.
What offensive abilities?
Outside of raw speed and accuracy in the 8m-32m range, the pistoleer should be adequate but not nearly as efficient as their carbineer and rifleman counter parts at further distances. This means pistols should not be range capped at 32m or 48m or some other arbitrary range. Instead, the accuracy tables must reflect optimal shooting range for real this time. The fact that riflemen, pistoleers, and carbineers rarely miss PvE and factional PvE targets at all ranges is a sign of something broken. However, this must not be an excuse to arbitrarily hamstring pistoleers from shooting back when fired upon from long range.
The pistoleer needs to have mechanisms in place that allow them to "close the gap" to short range when necessary (discussed below).
The pistoleer should also have a series of special attacks that do exceedily high damage up close. The point blank series of attacks are simply not nearly as good as the full range series of special attacks. Right now a pistoleer should never user point blank single 2. Not only does it do the same damage as the Marksman Point Blank Single 1 (broken since release) it doesn't do as much damage as Stopping Shot which of course is just as accurate for a pistoleer at point blank range!
What defensive abilities?
The 8m-32m is a scary place for ranged professions. You are within the reach of melee attacks which can cripple most. In order to give pistoleers tangible reasons to close the gap and fight this close, they need to have very high melee defenses, state defenses, and high levels of dodge abilities. The current defense setup is appropriate for this.
The Pistol Whip special ability is a short range knockdown. Keep it exactly where it is and extend the range of Pistol Smash (/pistolMeleeDefense2) to 16m, double its damage (right now it is double the pool cost for the same damage as pistol whip and has no knockdown), and add a chance to dizzy or delay the opponent (for say 5 seconds to keep it in line with how long another knockdown would keep an opponent out of combat).
What unique abilities?
A pistoleer needs to be given real incentives to close in so close to the extremely damaging melee specialists. A new focus for point blank attacks should also enter the equation for “bread and butter damage dealing.” Heavy weapon special attacks are EXTREMELY potent but are balanced by the need to be 16m or closer to use. A smart fighter will flee from a Flamethrower toting commando in the battlefield. A Pistoleer's point blank attacks should have this sort of reputation for keeping opponents at bay.
One of the abilities of a pistoleer that drew my attention near launch was the Disarming Shot line of attacks. To this date, they are absolutely useless and do not damage the other opponent’s weapon, disarm them, or anything other than deal out extremely pool-inefficient random pool damage. The disarming shot line needs to add state effects to their victims. I propose:
- DisarmingShot1 has a chance to add the +Stun+ state effect, and
- DisarmingShot2 (one of the two Master Pistoleer shots) has a chance to add the +Intimidate+ state effect.
In addition, if the two shots above are not reliable in their chances to inflict state effects, they need to deal out more damage than they do now for their HAM cost to make them worth using in PvE and PvP scenarios.
The pistoleer, like melee professions, need to fight up close to do their best. Unlike melee professions, they cannot be kited. However, a pistoleer should be given mechanisms to “close the gap.” I suggest that Stopping Shot (whose description seems to imply an ability to halt an opponent in their tracks) be given the Posture Down state effect (similar to suppression fire but obviously more damaging). In this way, a pistoleer can “Stop” an opponent and try to close in. Right now a Pistoleer needs to dabble in Smuggler to receive access to Low Blow (a ranged pistol base knockdown special). Keep that ability worth spending skill points for but give pistoleers a usable mechanism in its place... making Stopping Shot force an opponent to kneel does just that.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The pistoleer must be an asset to any group that plans on close quarters combat (that is, dungeons, bases, urban warfare) in addition to a valued member of a well rounded team for other forms of ranged combat.
The pistoleer must be the one of the “go-to” guys when it comes to doing concentrated damage on the health pool cheaply and efficiently.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
The Pistoleer through exceedingly efficient short range attacks and ability to apply state effects at short ranges (knockdowns, intimidation, etc) serve two roles:
- They complement melee professions in damage output
- They serve to distract opponents in near-melee range so Carbineers, Riflemen, and Heavy Weapon specialists can dish out long range damage
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The Pistoleer and Smuggler professions must go hand in hand since they both require the Marksman Pistol line. The current profession setups make it such that smugglers require pistoleer skills to be accurate and fast with their weapon and require that pistoleers take smuggler skills to get useful special attacks. This idea is great in principle. Unfortunately, the benefits are stacked in favor of the smuggler because the pistoleer profession has extremely poor/redundant specials or specials that simply do not function (please see the Pistoleer Top 5 issues list).
This can easily be remedied by making Pistoleers more viable without smuggler and keep smugglers dependent on Pistoleers for the speed, accuracy, and defense.
The Pistoleer, while definitely being the toughest of all ranged elites up close, must still depend on melee specialists for actual prolonged “tanking.”
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Pistoleers should excel in urban warfare, base take overs, and other close quarter combat. The short range capabilities of a Master Pistoleer should rival but not equal the damage capabilities of Master Melee professions while still maintaining the ability to do reasonable damage from greater distances.
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Pistoleers should be renamed "Gunslingers". I just think it sounds cooler IMHO even tho this is one of the titles of the skill tree. Key elements are speed, agility, and accuracy at close range. They should have the best accuracy from 6m to 32m, but they should still hit relatively well (albeit less than carbineers) from 32m-64m.
What offensive abilities?
The skills should be revamped somewhat.Pistolmeleedefense1 shouldlower stance (e.g. stand to kneel) andhave a percent chance (50%?) to do dizzy simultaneously. Pistolmeleedefense 2 should KDenough for2 rounds of shots (who ever heard of someone bouncing right back up after being pistol-whipped?). Disarm shots1 and 2 are a little confusing, but I think that they should have the ability to intimidate w/2 doing higher damage than 1. (If idropped my weapon, i'd feel intimidated by the accuracy of my opponent, wouldn'tyou?). Body shot 3 should obviously be more dmg than 2 or1. Dual wields wouldbe strictly reserved for Master w/ a 25% hit to acc and a 2x for damage if it hits.If we wanted to hit accurately w/ duals, using /aim would be good since it would force us to shoot slower.
What defensive abilities?
Overall I feel that the defense abilities are sufficient. The only thing I feel that should be done is have a percent chance to counterattack w/ a normal shot when dodging, but w/ a 30% reduction in accuracy for that shot.
What unique abilities?
See above 
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
I would think that any melee based combatant should have an advantage over pistoleers @ 5m or less. However, the speed of the pistoleers attack should be able to weaken multiple targets before they come into melee range, giving them the chance to survive a rush. Riflemen would pwn them at +64m, but ,master pistoleers should be given sufficient range mitigation to prevent master riflemen from constant overpowering at long range.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Pistoleers would eventually require to purchase small crates of exceptional weaponry from weap smiths due to the use of dual wield. Perhaps having identical weapons in each hand would give back a 5% bonus in accuracy. Furthermore, more types of pistols w/ varying types of damages should be sprinkled throughout the skill tree, with Master acquiring a pistol at the same relative dmg/spd as a std launcher/scatter.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Due to the likelihood of becoming "cannon fodder" for the rest of the group while wearing little/no armor to maintain speed, pistoleers would require buffs/spices and the occasional healing from combat medics. But a group of pistoleers alone *(as well as any other prof) should not be able to take out a well balanced group of melee and ranged.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
No real unique role, they're just the second line of defense in a battlefield w/ melee up front providing tank support.