Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Weekly Roundtable Discussion (Week Ending 2-9-04)
I would like to sound off on the planned changes to remove stacked defenses from the game. First, I would like to say that I understand the problem that's involved here. Basiclly, I can see how certain profession combinations would give a player such high melee/ranged defense as to be unfair (especially in terms of skill points used). The problem with the proposed solution, as I see it, is that it completely undermines one of the core design features of the game, which is that there are no set "classes" such as fighter/bard/healer/etc. SWG was designed to give the player freedom to create their "own class" of character by experimenting with different professions to find what works best for them. By removing stacked defenses, you basiclly remove the entire advantage of mixing professions to begin with.
I have a compromise solution which I feel is fair to both sides of this issue, which I humbly submit for consideration.
What I propose is simply a cap on ranged and melee defense which will increase only as a player spends more skill points. Basiclly, set the cap at "x" for a new character, and as they train up into the advanced professions, allow that cap to increase gradually. (this is difficult to explain so bear with me)
for example, right now a player which has trained ONLY master marksman will have a ranged defense of +19. Make this the defensive cap for any Novice (read this as a new character) player. A player may be able to get skill tapes, buffs, etc. which would add up to a ranged defense of greater than 19, but if they are only a Master Marksman (or less than that), the added defense will not apply and they will be capped at 19.
Now, add cap increases at the top ofeach line in every combat profession, say +5 to your cap. Basiclly what this does is, no matter which combat professions a character chooses, their defensive cap will remain the same unless they really work at the profession(spending skill points) to reach the top of the line.
Next, add a larger cap increase at the master box, say +20 to the cap.Keep in mind here, I am saying add +20 to the cap, not to this character's actual defense, just to the allowable ceiling. By giving a large cap bonus at the mastery level, you basiclly acomplish two things: the first is that a master of an elite combat profession has a much greater defense than any novice, and second that it rewards those who choose to stay "true" to their profession while still allowing for dabblers exist as viable combatants.
I've thrown out some cap numbers here just as an example. The actual cap numbers would have to be more closely looked at, but basiclly I envision it that a Master Bounty hunter, for example, would get a defensive cap that is much higher than someone who just dabbled in the profession...and that in general, any dabbler would have a difficult time finding a combination that gives them a defensive cap as high as a Master Elite profession.
This is not to say that picking and choosing certain lines from several professions won't give someone an advantage, all that this cap system does is make sure that a player can't just go out and train 4 or 5 skill boxes and have the best defenses in the game.
I hope that I have been clear in the system I proposed here today. I can say that I am against the removal of stacked defenses because I feel that the freedom to experiment is one of the core features of SWG, and without a stacking defense, experimention becomes almost worthless. By capping off defensive maximums until a player moves further into a profession, I believe that SWG can continue to cater to those who wish to be true to a single profession, as well as those who wish to dabble among several combat lines for best result.
Thanx for reading...
DC
Sketh wrote:
So, what does this leave us in terms on non-combat professions? Image designers, and ... Droid Engineers. While Image Designers don't have a lot of market, at least at some point, everyone has a use for them.
Thunderheart, you have stated that Droid Engieners cannot give players extra checkers. Yet DE's are one of only two non-combat classes that cannot do so.
I would like to hear an explanation of why this is.
He said other players can't get these "extra checkers" for free. To use level 10 pets or higher you have to invest skill points into the Creature Handler profession. Anyone can use level 10 or lower. It's been stated numerous times that's how droids will work.Level 10 and lower for everyone, anything higher you have to use skill points to control.
A lot of the examples you provide are temporary bonuses (Doctor, Entertainer, Chefs). I wouldn't classify them as extra checkers since they wear off after a period of time.
I don't see how allowing all players to own houses or harvesters is seen as giving players extra checkers. (Architect)
Bio-Engineers can only provide level 10 pets or lower to the general population. This would work the same with droids. Also Tailor and bio-engineer skill tapes don't add the equivalent of a 2nd player along with you as Pets do, so while this is a bonus, it certainly isn't "extra checkers" material.
Weaponsmith-- Players need certifications which they gain through skill point expenditure.
Armorsmith -- The benefits from armor are substansial, but still I would argue that they don't come near the added bonus of combat pets and/or combat droids.
Just my two cents...
VampireWookie wrote:
Sketh wrote:
So, what does this leave us in terms on non-combat professions? Image designers, and ... Droid Engineers. While Image Designers don't have a lot of market, at least at some point, everyone has a use for them.
Thunderheart, you have stated that Droid Engieners cannot give players extra checkers. Yet DE's are one of only two non-combat classes that cannot do so.
I would like to hear an explanation of why this is.
He said other players can't get these "extra checkers" for free. To use level 10 pets or higher you have to invest skill points into the Creature Handler profession. Anyone can use level 10 or lower. It's been stated numerous times that's how droids will work.Level 10 and lower for everyone, anything higher you have to use skill points to control.
A lot of the examples you provide are temporary bonuses (Doctor, Entertainer, Chefs). I wouldn't classify them as extra checkers since they wear off after a period of time.
I don't see how allowing all players to own houses or harvesters is seen as giving players extra checkers. (Architect)
Bio-Engineers can only provide level 10 pets or lower to the general population. This would work the same with droids. Also Tailor and bio-engineer skill tapes don't add the equivalent of a 2nd player along with you as Pets do, so while this is a bonus, it certainly isn't "extra checkers" material.
Weaponsmith-- Players need certifications which they gain through skill point expenditure.
Armorsmith -- The benefits from armor are substansial, but still I would argue that they don't come near the added bonus of combat pets and/or combat droids.
Just my two cents...
You must realize that I am not talking about combat droids - I am referring to this quote:
Thunderheart said:
Second Link
Here's a real, real, real simple fix for you.
Spraystick is supposed to be Acid damage
Tusken Rifle is supposed to be Kinetic damage
T21 is supposed to be Blast damage
Jedi Padawan
Rebel ColonelWell I have mentioned this in secondary in a few other posts, like the IC Pistoleer post. But I wanted to make a clear post on this one subject, and hopefully this is the right place.
This might be getting changed in the weapons phase of the combat revamp, but I have not heard anything of this at all.
The range modifiers on ALL weapons need to be changed. As I stated in the IC pistoleer roll in combat, each weapon type has a different roll, and a different range of effectivness to go with it.
PISTALS: The pistals should be up close, mobile combat. The should be right behind the meleers, moving, dodging, diving, rollin, blasting. The range of effectiveness for pistals should be 0-30m and start getting serious negative modifiers beyond that. Depending on the pistal, the optimum range can be moved around somewhere in there, or maybe for some special cases ie Republic blaster that seems to have a high range, move its limit to 35m or 40m. But your average pistal should be getting for example negative 10 at 40m, negative 25 at 50m and nagative 40 at 60+m. This is accurate with pistals both in RL and in SW universe. The pistal is fast, and accurate only at closer range. In this game they should be the fastest ranged weapon, with the lowest general damages. The pistoleer should be up close in combat, moving about, dodging weaving, doing some minor crowd control, tangling up the enemy, and keeping them distracted from the other weapons type characters. Already pistoleer has skill bonuses for accuracy while running, and that is great, and should be there. This is what the pistoleers should be doing. kneeling, rolling, diving, running. They need some decent defencive mods, both against ranged and some against melee. Since the meleers will likely be coming after them. If the standard dodge, block, perry? defences work against both ranged and melee then thats fine.
CARBINE: The carbine is the middle ranged weapon class between pistals and rifles. They are a little slower then the pistals, and do a little more damage. They should have good ranges say from 30m to 50m. That is their best ranges with no negative mods. If they go below 30m or above 50m, they start getting nagive mods. Maybe a little higher mods when going above rather then below. I say this because in SW you see carbines being very inaccurate at long ranges, blasting all around the target. So the carbine is a little more powerful then pistals, and a little slower, and the carbineer will stand back behind the pistoleers, moving some, but not as much as the pistoleers. Doing some major crowd control, hitting with some high powered hits at the targets. They have some bonusses to accuracy while running but not much. They should be standing or kneeling for best results, and some moderate ranged defences. Not as high as the pistoleers, but a little more ranged defences, and a little less melee defences.
RIFLES: The rifle is the ultimate long range, ranged weapon. These guys should be able to have no accuracty nagative mods for anything over 50m. They are the long range, take out the larger more troublsome targets, lay prone and snipe. The rifleman should be in the last ranks of combat, picking off single targets, or helping to take down the large ones. They are the slowest of the weapons, but also do the most damage. Idealy, the rifleman should not have to worry about anything other then other riflemen attacking them. The pistoleers are the primary defence for rifleman, and the carbineers being the secondary. The rifleman already has anti sniping skills for making other rifleman vulnerable, so this is already in line for logical combat. The rifleman will start getting some penalties for coming in closer then 50m. Say at 40m negative 10, at 30m negative 40, and 20m or less, negative 50. As I believe they already have, if the riflman is prone, and taking cover, etc. should be the ultimate sniper and concealed. Anyone shooting at them with ranged weapons, should have some pretty hard nagatives to hit that rifleman at that point. The riflman should have some pretty high ranged defences, especially with the above mentioned conditions, and no melee defences.
The basic idea of this post is to point out that the range modifiers for weapons are totally whacked and make no sence at all. Some don't even have a positive one at all. There should be a range of distances, where the weapons does get positive modiers, and outside that range they get negative modifiers.
Thunderheart wrote:
JoahSaett wrote:
The discussions on Stacking Defences seem to be an all or nothing issue. I do understand that balance is nessasary, but why not try hit a middle ground and spread ALL defence and state bonuses in a class throughout the four trees. This was done with the creature levels of the Creature Handler Profession, and I think it was a good fix for that problem, and it may work as well for this problem.
People who wish to play purely combat oriented classes should benefit from it over a person who is a Combat/Crafter (for instance).
A middle ground is being established...
I spoke of the pain of the Combat Balance in my "Art of Combat" post - - we are in that painful phase now.
The big challenge will be to think of professions as they should be and not as they are and to post those ideas in the "Combat roles" posts in In-Concept.
So give some thought to which hybrid combo you want to go with. Ask around and see what works well. Just remember that defence mods won't stack like this when the balance is done (because its caused a lot of unfair combat situations.)
Yeraze wrote:
Any info on how the up/down will work? Will it be a "/moveFurniture up 1" type command? Or will there be true collision detection between objects so we can actually set something ON a table, instead of floating in space conveniently above a table?
Careful... I dont think youre thinking this through. The ability to place objects within other objects in player homes has give birth to some pretty awesome looking fish tanks. Not to mention that one Pod Racer that was crafted (see the home show threads, really cool stuff).
People place things on tables all the time, with the up/down command its going to be that much easier.