Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Feedback: Jedi Powers
lockder
Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:22 am
#27
hi again (im doing more tests) now i tested much more resists bleed, posion, disease and states from enhancement skill tree, Also i want add they really dont worth. As i can see the skill mods are a % of reduction also 26% at rank 0 isnt enough. If i get this skills its because i dont want get healing skill(remember i have a skill limit points for waste i cant be everything) i really would suggest increase to 45 like armor force 2 or shield force 2 for absorbing/states and 55 for resist( i guess it do they fail when attack) . We NEED alternatives to defender tree, lightsaber skill tree also healing skill tree, if i want be power/enhancement with some lightsaber skills i really will not defender as a guy with defender skill tree and healing but i could survive (atm you cant survive without)
i want add i cant understand why you didnt add a drain force life in power skill tree like there is in jedi outcast, the game, of course i never will heal as a healer but could do some dmg and get a % returned to the jedi( low heal but yes a bit ).
if you want survive in pvp you need, master lightsaber or master defender ( minium 0 0 4 4), you will need also minium 3 0 0 4 healing skill tree and enhancement 0 0 0 4. i tested the regen before the bug and i had 74 regen i think and i needed around 20 min sitting to get all power back and that is too much for a jedi overt, i want suggest meditate keeps at is it now and if you regen without it only need takes 10 min to regen all power. Please give us alternatives to the "pre-build templates"
i want add i cant understand why you didnt add a drain force life in power skill tree like there is in jedi outcast, the game, of course i never will heal as a healer but could do some dmg and get a % returned to the jedi( low heal but yes a bit ).
if you want survive in pvp you need, master lightsaber or master defender ( minium 0 0 4 4), you will need also minium 3 0 0 4 healing skill tree and enhancement 0 0 0 4. i tested the regen before the bug and i had 74 regen i think and i needed around 20 min sitting to get all power back and that is too much for a jedi overt, i want suggest meditate keeps at is it now and if you regen without it only need takes 10 min to regen all power. Please give us alternatives to the "pre-build templates"
DarthMaul73
Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:03 am
#28
Thunderheart:
With the last patch today, Jedi Healing was decimated due to unbelievably high force costs. Let me give you examples.
Total Heal Self : 900 force cost (used to be 500, and worked completely).
Now, total heal doesn't even work completely. It heals a maximum of 1000 HAM off each bar, and doesn't clear all battle fatigue.
Total Heal Self Other: 1500 force cost (used to be 1000, and worked completely).
Same problems as total heal self.
Heal States Self: 325 force cost (used to be 50 force cost)
This force cost was incurred from me healing the stun, blind, and dizzy states.
Heal States Other: 450 force cost (used to be 100 force cost)
This force costs was incurred from me healing another person of the same states as myself, in Heal States Self.
HealAllSelf2 (as well as HealHealthSelf2, HealActionSelf2, HealMindSelf2):
These force costs are reasonable. However, the cap on healing yourself is 500 points on eachHAM bar. Whereas, using HealAllOther2 (and that corresponding line of healing) allows you to heal 750 points on each HAM bar. The HeaOther line still allows you to target yourself as well, which can not be intended.
In addition, Master Healers still can't cure the firedot in Total Heals.
Please, I'm pretty much begging you. Put things back as they were before the 16th. As it is, Master Healer is going to be as worthless as Master Force Powers was last week, and being someone who wants to be a Master Healer, to help others as well as sufficiently PvP in the new FRS, this makes me very sad 
Thanks.
CyberFett
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:21 am
#29
All I really have to say is that I am glad I am only a 4/4/4/4Initiate when this new patch hits live.
I have a specific template I want to do for my Jedi, but as it is now, if I want to be effective in PvP I will have to be Master Saber / Master Defense, and dabble a little in one other tree. That is not the template I want. I am a Dark Jedi, I should be Offensive, not Defensive (defense is for Light Jedi), but unfortunitlly If you want to compete in PvP in the new system you have to have Master Lightsaber/Master Defense.
I am glad I am only 4/4/4/4 Initiate, because I can do most of the things I want to do while waiting to see what is changed after this goes live, where as the current high level Jedi will have to commit to their skills now, the day it goes live.The bad thing is going to be for them, when these things are changed to make all the Jedi trees more balanced so we do not heve the "cookie cutter" Master Lightsaber/Master Defense Jedi. They will have spent all of their points and very hard earned XP because their template will not be the best for PvP anymore and they will have to drop all those skills to get new ones. There are going to be some very pissed off Jedi when this happens.
The Trees are not balanced. You can not put all the Defenses in one tree and say it is balanced, everyone wants to have the best defenses possible in PvP, so everyone will have to take and Master the Force Defense tree because that is where they all are. You can not put all of the best Lightsabers in the Lightsaber Master Box and say it is balanced, everyone wants to have the best weapon possible in PvP, so everyone will take and Master the Lightsaber tree because that is where the best weapons are.
Weather it be Light Jedi or Dark Jedi, the only members of the counsil will be Master Lightsaber/Master Defenders (more so with Dark because it will be decided with duals) because they will be the best PvPers and will have the points, so once again, if you want to be a high ranking Jedi you have to be Master Lightsaber/Master Defender. This is not balance.
I have said this from day one that TC2 went live, and nothing I have seen has made me change my mind. The system looks great in theory, but when put into live it is going to cause many problems. Either we will all be Master Lightsaber / Master Defense and it will stay that way forever, which will be boring as hell. Or things will be changed after it goes live to rebalance and make the other trees more appealing so we actually do have some diversity in Jedi. Then all of the hard work and massive ammounts of XP the current and future High level Jedi have done will have to be discarded and they will have to aquire new skills. That is when there will be some pissed off Jedi.
I posted a suggestion right after TC2 went up, It did not get one reply. I will post it again here.
I do not know how hard it would be to recode but here is my suggestion to fix this problem.
1) Keep the initiate level, as a Basic profession (Like Brawler or Marksman). Skill points would be the same as any Basic Profession (15 SP for Novice 2,3,4,5 for each skill box) with the same XP for each box it has now. Give The Initiate Profession some Defense Mods,a little better force regen andforce points as you go up the tree. My suggestion would be to give 1/3 of what is given in the current Raise the Lightsaber XP needed per Box and lower the Jedi XP needed per box (Maybe 20K, 40K, 80K, 100K). At the Initiate Level you would only be able to craft and use a training lightsaber. Once you are 4/4/4/4 Initiate you can train Padawan (cost of 6 SP)
2) Once you have reached Padawan then you will be able to craft a 1st Generation Lightsaber of your choice (1-handed, 2-handed, polearm). Then you decide which Elite Jedi Skill trees you wish to persue. There would be 4, Lightsaber, Force Powers, Force Healing, Force Enhancement. A Defensive line would be in each of the 4 skill trees. These Trees would cost the same as the other Elite Professions (6 SP for novice, 5,4,3,2 for each line and 1 for Master)
A) The Lightsaber Tree would basically stay the way it is now. But change the Generation certifications back to 5 Generations and give the certifications for 2-5 Generation Lightsabers in each box of it's tree. Master would get all of the current bonuses it gets now, and is also reserved for the much anticipated Dual Weilding Certification for lightsabers. Also add Meele, Range, and Jedi Toughness Defense Mods to the Techniques line. Jedi Toughness should be added to this tree.
B) Force Powers Would also pretty much stay the same. But since some of the Skills would be granted to initiate, combine it into 3 lines and add a Force Power Defense line to add the Force Defense Line. Jedi Toughness should be added to this tree.
C) Force Healing, as with Force Powers would also give some skills at initiate, so combine the lines to 3 and add the Preternatural Defense line. Jedi Toughness should be added to this tree.
D) Force Enhancement Would remain the same as well, but add Jedi Toughness mods to this Tree as well.
3) Once you have filled out your template and become Jedi Knight and chose a side (Light or Dark) Light Jedi should get defensive bonuses depending on their rank in the new system, Dark Jedi should get offensive bonuses depending on their rank in the new system (can not really comment because we really do not know what this will be yet). Light Jedi should be more Defensive, Dark Jedi should be more offensive.
The current design looks nice on the surface, but if you really think about it, it is going to cause some major problems. Master Lightsaber / Master Force Defense will dominate in PvP which will cause either everone to go this route or will cause the nerf crys to begin. Defense should be spread out among all of the elite Jedi skill trees, and you should not have to master 3 types of lightsabers to be able to use the best one.
There may be flaws in my idea, I encourage any critisism or corrections, I am only a 4/1/4/4 initiate at the moment, but I have been playing this game since launch and I have seen what happens when things like this are put into the game (Rifleman, Cobat Medics, Fencers, ect.....) everyone will go for the template that will be the most powerful. The trick is to make all possible templates powerful in their own way, and still have balance. I do not see this in the new system.
I posted that on 6/1/04. Do not see it any differently now.
Grimhand
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:35 am
#30
With great regret, I interuppt the topic.
Can someone please tell me whether or not the Force Sensitive skills affect Lightsaber use?Are the melee attack, speed, and defense bonuses from the Force Sensitive line in effect when you have a lightsaber equipped?
Thank you.
Again, sorry to break into this discussion.
CyberFett
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:46 am
#31
Can't edit my post for some reason.
Also I would have to say that once you achieve Padawan and take the Padawan Trials, at this point you would have to relinquish all of your other professions. I also see a big problem coming with Hybrid Jedi. Master Rifleman/Master Lightsaber, Master Combat Medic/Master Lightsaber, ect......
TookyG
Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:25 am
#32
Shouldn't there be some "vanilla" versions of force powers such as force run?
It just doesn't seem "right" that some Jedi will have force run and others won't. All Jedi at least get a training saber so all Jedi should get some very basic common force powers.
Zarathustra
Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:30 am
#33
CyberFett, unfortunately I can only give you 5 stars even though your post deserrves about 20!
DarthMaul73
Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:06 am
#34
Zarathustra wrote:
CyberFett, unfortunately I can only give you 5 stars even though your post deserrves about 20!
I couldn't agree more.
After yesterday's publish changes to Healer, I am convinced now I will NOT be logging in Monday. I'm not sure how long I'm going to wait now...but I'm beyond gunshy right now.
This publish is making good progress, but it is NOT ready for Monday. Not for the existing 4444 guardians now. We are gonna be potentially hosed really bad.
Renairdor
Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:15 am
#35
Zarathustra wrote:
CyberFett, unfortunately I can only give you 5 stars even though your post deserrves about 20!
With Zara on that 
Awesome post CyberFett. Echoes our sentiments exactly.
Given testing 3 templates on Test, and having friends try the 'latest' last night, Master LS/Master Def is a 'must'. So that leaves 2 lines in ONE more tree to be the 'real specialty', since I cannot take 2 lines in 2 trees. Have to say, I actually hate the way skill points are done in the new system.
Meditate/Drain? Force Run? State protects? Heals/Cures? Lightning? Intimidate/Weaken? I can pick only from2 of these that happen to be in the same tree.
Lightsaber Damage seems improved last night, at least there is a chance a dual between master LS/master Def vs another will end within 5 minutes I do like the way the Devs implemented so higher level specials do higher level damage, but it takes force to use the specials so there are tactics to defeat Jedi using force drains. 'Epic' battles of force pool, so to speak.
One partof the problem as I see it- what's happening with Jedi Robes? Live in less then a week, and no testing on jedi robes?
Ren
BeWary
Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:03 pm
#36
Ypiana wrote:Why the hell did you put Jedi in the game if the game's between ep. 4 and 5 anyway? If the whole game is going to be Jedi you guys are going to tank the game. Really high strength with permadeath and blue glowie was a great idea instead of Jedi all over the place. You need to push the timeframe back to KOTOR time if the game's going in this direction.
^ /forceMoan and /forceBi+ch are working fine I see.^
-Def master is almost too nescisary. No one has seen statted robes, armor is gone, Dying costs so everyone is gonna be extra careful.
-Master Force power box is not worth it. Mind Trick is a once a month special, if that, as it is easily that long between times you meet a player controlled MOB. Choke is limited in it's usefulness to unbuffed or nearly dead targets.
Forcepower in general needs help. It needed to be a viable offensive option for a Jedi who didn't want to go saber, and a second tool for the saber Jedi who wanted to go w/o alot of defense. It's a poor cousin right now. Highly ranked FRS Jedi get some very nice results from their force powers. I've seen lightningsingle2 hit for over 500 in PvP against a master defender, so perhaps just "turning the volume up" a bit will do.
-Sabers are balanced nicely within themselves I think ( saber vs saber, decay rate, force cost/results) and as to how they compare to every other weapon, the CB will tell.
It's too late but I honestly think it could have been done in 4 trees, allowing us the current 2.5 trees worth and putting some skills like forcerun, meditate, the basic heals, and the equiv of nov saber into basic Jedi skills given to all Jedi when they drop their last "regular proffesion" skill.
now to find where I post my opinions on the Knight Trials. /put on ranting hat.
went light side, and used 2 very different builds, master saber/master def,synergy, 1/0/0/0 heal and master power/master enahnce 4/0/0/4 saber.
Chewie101
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:53 pm
#37
Any combat profession especially one with a large death penalty needs defenses. I think it is a big mistake to make defense a seperate tree and make people choose between being the jedi that people imagine from the movies with force powers or being able to survive in this game with the defense tree.
I dont want every jedi to be the same template but every jedi needs defense. Even just picking half the defense tree is not enough defense. Even if the force powers are made 10 times stronger, a jedi without the defense tree will still die if he is fighting more than one person which all knights will have to do by being perma overt.
I dont want every jedi to be the same template but every jedi needs defense. Even just picking half the defense tree is not enough defense. Even if the force powers are made 10 times stronger, a jedi without the defense tree will still die if he is fighting more than one person which all knights will have to do by being perma overt.
Bamoo
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:36 pm
#38
Thunderheart and Devs,
I did not read the other post. So here goes.
As a 4444 Light guardian on kettemoor the first of his kind on that server hehe.
I had access to all the force powers. Force run 2 was really nice Force weaken 1 and 2 because they stacked 1 hand saber frenzy , Total heal all is /was the best.
On Test because of the changes and the seperation of force powers I must choose basically defense/heal/Lightsaber/Enhancement.
I can't get the cool powers of force intimidate2 or Force run 2 just not enough points at padawan level or Knight level in the new system for that matter.
The Animal powers should be completely tossed out and perhaps pushed to JEDI mind trick let the game decide what type of animal or being your trying to control. Just my opinion. The seperation of the saber line was pretty cool but it's way extreame for force powers. Also no one really uses Force weaken that I know of on test a lot of defense and heal types on TC2.
Also as you and most are aware that you get 7200 force pool for mastering 2 full lines and some random skills. You get 6500 force pool for 1 master in a force line and a bunch of random skills that don't or won't help 2 much.
PuntaSur
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:42 pm
#39
1. Both: Light Jedi at first, then went dark, saw no real difference in results.
2. All of them (was Master Force Wielder, 0404 LS, 2004 Enhancer, Some healing and Novice Defender.
3.a) LIKED: I liked all the animations (I'm only Padawan in live and have not seen most of the force skill animations yet).
3. b) DID NOT LIKE:
- I was dead meat against anything tougher than Meatlumps. We are forced to get the Defender tree without armor or any defences in the robes.
- I ran out of force quickly if I used choke or Lightning Cone 2 more than once or twice.
- Damage output in PvE and PvP was too low considering the skill point investment and force pool costs.
NOTE: I will not be taking any force powers in my build on live after this testing. It's a shame a Jedi would not have ANY of these skills, but this tree simply is not worth the investment (even for a Roleplaying and visual perspective which actually do weigh in heavy in my calculations).