Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Feedback: Jedi Powers
kronus909
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:38 pm
#14
In live i have a dark jedi.
Jedi powers should be just as important as having a Lightsaber, lots of ppl sway from the new force power tree , do to the high costs that they are not really as effective . Most of the specials do not work as intended in live , and the only reasons i use force throw and lightning is to get the maximum exp of lairs.
Now since im a Dark Jedi , i think force powers should there main source of power and damage . TickTock is right because sabers now can do the same amount of damage and costs much less , and is more effective. Anybody with over 50 points of any state defense can easily negate one or two uses of lets force knockdown , or mindblast. They should be made so they stick everytime , As of now u can easily spend more than 500 force just to stick a dizzy on someone, then spend another of couple extra force moves to knock them down,
I like the changes to Choke and Lightning they do the damage that are supposed to be doing in TC2 , but choke doesnt work on buffed players it seems?
i guess its a bug and is being addressed,
Lightning Cone needs to be fixed it is very hard to target a group of mobs , as they have to be in a cone area, and u have to aim for the farthest mob . And pray they all get hit . It should hit in an immediate area like 2hand saber phantom
A Force Chain Lighting would be a great addition , just like how Force Intimidate works right now , goin from person to person , and have a range of atleast 20m . That would be an awesome addition .
Jedi powers should be just as important as having a Lightsaber, lots of ppl sway from the new force power tree , do to the high costs that they are not really as effective . Most of the specials do not work as intended in live , and the only reasons i use force throw and lightning is to get the maximum exp of lairs.
Now since im a Dark Jedi , i think force powers should there main source of power and damage . TickTock is right because sabers now can do the same amount of damage and costs much less , and is more effective. Anybody with over 50 points of any state defense can easily negate one or two uses of lets force knockdown , or mindblast. They should be made so they stick everytime , As of now u can easily spend more than 500 force just to stick a dizzy on someone, then spend another of couple extra force moves to knock them down,
I like the changes to Choke and Lightning they do the damage that are supposed to be doing in TC2 , but choke doesnt work on buffed players it seems?
i guess its a bug and is being addressed,
Lightning Cone needs to be fixed it is very hard to target a group of mobs , as they have to be in a cone area, and u have to aim for the farthest mob . And pray they all get hit . It should hit in an immediate area like 2hand saber phantom
A Force Chain Lighting would be a great addition , just like how Force Intimidate works right now , goin from person to person , and have a range of atleast 20m . That would be an awesome addition .
Force Intimidate 2works nicely , but cost to much force almost 750
All the Animal Skills are useless
Jedi Mind Trick is also useless , as no one uses pets anymore or npc faction pets,
Weaken should be tweaked more , hit for more debilitaion , and faster , it takes to long for it to go in effect . it should atleast take 1k off each pool .
ForceRun2 on live or the Forcerun3 on Test - i think that every Dark/LightJedi should have this skill when they hit Knight , i think its one of the best skills to have in the game , but i really dont want to spend the points in getting it at the master box of enhance.
Over all things are getting changed day to day , which is good thing, i would like to be more of a force power user , than a lightsaber user , i have faith in the FRS to increase the skills that are compensated for the Dark Jedi , less cost and more damage . So bring some of these ideas into play , and try to make it more unique and viable to choose as people are swaying now to the master LS/ Defense / 4004 healing line .
Ko-aIri
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm
#15
My TC2 template is Master Lightsaber/Master Force Powers/Enhancement 4/0/0/4.
On Live, I will pursue the path of the Dark Jedi, with the ultimate goal of the same build or similar. Definitely keeping Master Force Powers at any rate.
I'm borrowing format from an above post:
Channel Force - Works well in an emergency, assuming one is buffed.
Transfer Force - Fairly useless in most situations since I don't plan to run with Jedi gangs, but as posted above it would be nice if we could do /transferForce XXXX to specify the amount.
Drain Force - Needs to drain more force to be useful. If one tries to spam this attack, one will die long before the opponent is drained of force.
Lightning Single 1/2 - Decent damage, but the force cost is high compared to a similarly damaging lightsaber special. Also, Lightning Single 2 seems to have an abnormally long delay, I was able to do more damage with multiple Lightning Single 1s.
Lightning Cone 1/2- See above.
Force Throw 1/2 - Ok, but considering how they fall at the same level (box 1/3 of their trees) as Force Lightning they don't do enough damage. These need a damage boost to make them comparable to Lightning.
Mindblast 1/2 - Good, but in many cases it's very difficult to get the states to stick. Should also do mind pool damage, but the pool seems to be random.
Intimidate 1/2 - Works correctly, although Intimidate 1 is equivalent to a novice brawler skill yet costs a significant amount of force it seems. Intimidate 2 works great, seems balanced to me.
Knockdown 1/2/3 - Almost impossible to get to stick compared to the KD associated with Saber Toss. If I had Saber Toss, I would never use these skills, as they are innacurate and usually fail to knock the target(s) down.
Weaken 1/2 - Weaken seems to work pretty well, although in advanced PvE even a 2000 point reduction is pretty negligible (try it on a krayt, it barely notices). Also, in PvP it weakens all stats (as it should) whereas in PvE it only drains the health of the target, making it even more limited in use. I suggest this be made a % of total target HAM instead of a blanket 2K PvE/500 PvP to make it more useful, and make it weaken all 3 bars in PvE.
Choke - Works well in PvE, but should do more since Lightning Single 2 is a comparable amount of damage and Choke is a MASTER skill. Does NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, not even a single point, in PvP if the target is buffed. Don't know if this is a bug or what, but it is totally useless in PvP. It should also inflict stun/intimidate states or something similar and perhaps a posture down, make it a devastating attack worthy of master.
Animal Scare, Animal Attack, Animal Calm - These work, but are difficult to execute. Animal calm only works with a well-timed /peace immediately after it, animal attack requires a lot of creative tab-targeting, and animal scare seems rather limited in practical use. I suppose if a person was really devoted to mastering these skills they might be used in creative ways.
Jedi Mind Trick - Only really seems like it would be useful against an Imperial with an AT-ST (assuming it works in this case) or a Master Creature Handler (pretty rare anymore). For a master level skill, pretty limited-use.
On Live, I will pursue the path of the Dark Jedi, with the ultimate goal of the same build or similar. Definitely keeping Master Force Powers at any rate.
I'm borrowing format from an above post:
Channel Force - Works well in an emergency, assuming one is buffed.
Transfer Force - Fairly useless in most situations since I don't plan to run with Jedi gangs, but as posted above it would be nice if we could do /transferForce XXXX to specify the amount.
Drain Force - Needs to drain more force to be useful. If one tries to spam this attack, one will die long before the opponent is drained of force.
Lightning Single 1/2 - Decent damage, but the force cost is high compared to a similarly damaging lightsaber special. Also, Lightning Single 2 seems to have an abnormally long delay, I was able to do more damage with multiple Lightning Single 1s.
Lightning Cone 1/2- See above.
Force Throw 1/2 - Ok, but considering how they fall at the same level (box 1/3 of their trees) as Force Lightning they don't do enough damage. These need a damage boost to make them comparable to Lightning.
Mindblast 1/2 - Good, but in many cases it's very difficult to get the states to stick. Should also do mind pool damage, but the pool seems to be random.
Intimidate 1/2 - Works correctly, although Intimidate 1 is equivalent to a novice brawler skill yet costs a significant amount of force it seems. Intimidate 2 works great, seems balanced to me.
Knockdown 1/2/3 - Almost impossible to get to stick compared to the KD associated with Saber Toss. If I had Saber Toss, I would never use these skills, as they are innacurate and usually fail to knock the target(s) down.
Weaken 1/2 - Weaken seems to work pretty well, although in advanced PvE even a 2000 point reduction is pretty negligible (try it on a krayt, it barely notices). Also, in PvP it weakens all stats (as it should) whereas in PvE it only drains the health of the target, making it even more limited in use. I suggest this be made a % of total target HAM instead of a blanket 2K PvE/500 PvP to make it more useful, and make it weaken all 3 bars in PvE.
Choke - Works well in PvE, but should do more since Lightning Single 2 is a comparable amount of damage and Choke is a MASTER skill. Does NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, not even a single point, in PvP if the target is buffed. Don't know if this is a bug or what, but it is totally useless in PvP. It should also inflict stun/intimidate states or something similar and perhaps a posture down, make it a devastating attack worthy of master.
Animal Scare, Animal Attack, Animal Calm - These work, but are difficult to execute. Animal calm only works with a well-timed /peace immediately after it, animal attack requires a lot of creative tab-targeting, and animal scare seems rather limited in practical use. I suppose if a person was really devoted to mastering these skills they might be used in creative ways.
Jedi Mind Trick - Only really seems like it would be useful against an Imperial with an AT-ST (assuming it works in this case) or a Master Creature Handler (pretty rare anymore). For a master level skill, pretty limited-use.
Ko-aIri
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:37 pm
#16
Bah, can't edit in this thread.
In conclusion, it would be nice if a Jedi could rely on the powers tree exclusively, forgoing all lightsaber skills, and still be a force to reckon with in PvP and PvE. At the moment, this is not the case, but it has been improved gradually over the past weeks. Others have suggested that Powers should be MORE damaging than lightsabers, as they are all offense and no defense, and I agree. After all, sabers get block/toughness, and a Jedi who invests 89 points in Powers vs. 89 in Sabers should be able to deal more pure damage than the one who also gets defensive benefit. Not to mention the much higher force cost for using powers than a saber... make these skills damaging enough to be worth the force cost, skill point investment, and character investment.
In conclusion, it would be nice if a Jedi could rely on the powers tree exclusively, forgoing all lightsaber skills, and still be a force to reckon with in PvP and PvE. At the moment, this is not the case, but it has been improved gradually over the past weeks. Others have suggested that Powers should be MORE damaging than lightsabers, as they are all offense and no defense, and I agree. After all, sabers get block/toughness, and a Jedi who invests 89 points in Powers vs. 89 in Sabers should be able to deal more pure damage than the one who also gets defensive benefit. Not to mention the much higher force cost for using powers than a saber... make these skills damaging enough to be worth the force cost, skill point investment, and character investment.
salvestrom
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:48 pm
#17
Speaking as an independent observer (that's code for no Jedi) it seemed to me that Force Power should be equal to the Lightsabre tree. A friend of mine (with a Jedi) said he very much wanted to be an "emperor clone" using force powers rather than sabres. But all the feedback I've heard from all of the Jedi I know is that the Force Power tree isn't worth a light.
One way to think of it might be "lightsabre=melee, forcepowers=ranged". A player could take both and be effetive at both, but have no/little defense and healing support, or take one or the other and get good healing and defense (this was the stated intent when the revamp was announced). All I hear, though,is "you've got to go master sabre, master defense, 4004 healing". Peer pressure I know. Personally I'm going 0040 lightsabre, investigation 4. =D
Just a thought.
Sal.
Ps Where should I post that armour should increase force cost, rather than completely prevent the use of specials and force abilities?? 
Ypiana
Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:39 pm
#18
Why the hell did you put Jedi in the game if the game's between ep. 4 and 5 anyway? If the whole game is going to be Jedi you guys are going to tank the game. Really high strength with permadeath and blue glowie was a great idea instead of Jedi all over the place. You need to push the timeframe back to KOTOR time if the game's going in this direction.
OldJediKnight
Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:42 pm
#19
On TC2 - Neutral Jedi
Master Saber, 4004 Defense, 3204 Healing, 0004 Enhance.
There are not enough skill points available to make Force Powers a viable template. I'll probably have to drop some healing and/or enhance in order to build Master Saber, Master Defender, and either 4004 heal or 4004 enhance on live.
Lowering the skill point costs would allow Jedi to feel more like Jedi, and allow us to actually be able to afford Force Powers and still be playable.
Arjun's suggestion of 7 5 3 1 would allow a Jedi to have2 full Masters and 4444 in another tree, or perhaps dabble a bit in powers and enhancments.
xxAce05xx
Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:20 pm
#20
Light Jedi
I'm still not satisfied with the results from force resist states/disease/bleeding/poisons. They should be very difficult to bypass because most people that take this skill set would not be getting healing.
I'm still not satisfied with the results from force resist states/disease/bleeding/poisons. They should be very difficult to bypass because most people that take this skill set would not be getting healing.
RabidEwok2
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:46 am
#21
Based on my tests, lightning damage isn't modified by the lightsabre damage.
I didn't quite like Force Lightning because it's based off the saber damage. So it's basically a Saber in lightning form. Mindblast didn't quite fit in because the master saber move like flurry also applies similar
PhiSig
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:56 am
#22
Aside from the damage outpust on force moves, the SPEED is the worst part... The low damage on force moves coupled with the extremely slow speed that you execute force powers at makes it impossible to be a force user only.. saber is the only viable damage option at this point.
fatgit
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:12 am
#23
I'm an "almost" Dark JediKnight on live.
The only powers I ever use are mindblast for the dizzy, force knockdown, force run and the heals. The force powers are too costly for little effect.
On TC2, I tried mastering the force power line.
Lightening 2/cone 2 are nice, but too slow and too expensive. Cone rarely hit multiple targets
Intimidate works, but again, costly.
All the force powers cost too much, and arent fast enough.
I can do the same effects and damage with Lightsaber but for a fraction of the cost and a damned sight faster.
Force Weaken didn't seem to be much help in PvE at all (not tried PvP on TC2 yet)
To make powers worthwhile, the DPS needs upping, either by increasing the speed of each ability, or increasing the effect, the costs need to be lowered to be comparable to that of Lightsabers.
On TC2, Force Lightening Cone 2 does ~3500 on a Rhoa Kwi Guardian for 150 force with a 3 second delay.
My 4th gen polearm saber uses 20 force for a polearm dervish doing ~3500 damage to the same mob, but at ~1.5 second.
So
Force lightening = ~1166dps at a cost of 50force per second
SaberPolearmDervish = ~2333dps at a cost of 10force per second
So, for 5* the force cost, I get half the dps of a saber.
That kinda sums up the force lines
The only powers I ever use are mindblast for the dizzy, force knockdown, force run and the heals. The force powers are too costly for little effect.
On TC2, I tried mastering the force power line.
Lightening 2/cone 2 are nice, but too slow and too expensive. Cone rarely hit multiple targets
Intimidate works, but again, costly.
All the force powers cost too much, and arent fast enough.
I can do the same effects and damage with Lightsaber but for a fraction of the cost and a damned sight faster.
Force Weaken didn't seem to be much help in PvE at all (not tried PvP on TC2 yet)
To make powers worthwhile, the DPS needs upping, either by increasing the speed of each ability, or increasing the effect, the costs need to be lowered to be comparable to that of Lightsabers.
On TC2, Force Lightening Cone 2 does ~3500 on a Rhoa Kwi Guardian for 150 force with a 3 second delay.
My 4th gen polearm saber uses 20 force for a polearm dervish doing ~3500 damage to the same mob, but at ~1.5 second.
So
Force lightening = ~1166dps at a cost of 50force per second
SaberPolearmDervish = ~2333dps at a cost of 10force per second
So, for 5* the force cost, I get half the dps of a saber.
That kinda sums up the force lines
fatgit
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:22 am
#24
Actually, looking at my combat spam from this mornings session, Force Lightening Cone 2 never hit multiple targets.
lockder
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:41 am
#25
Also i want say lighting2 and force throw 2 both are doing stun, why we want 3 attacks doing stun? (mindblast too) i would suggest lighting2 remain as stun( electricity stun you ) and force throw could do dizzy because objects hit you and you get dizzy ( try and hit your head with a chair and you could check what happens j/k ) 
makimus
Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:20 am
#26
light jedi on live
what i use:
kd + mindblast/lightning single JUST for the xp bonus on killing things.
if they did comparable damage to flurry and didnt cost 250+ force, then they would be quite a valuable asset.
mindblast makes intimidate useless.
force kd is outclassed by saberthrow.
lightning needs to be stronger, and perhaps inflict stun, as well as dizzy.
the animal scare/calm/mind tricks....are USELESS! =P
as you can see, the majority of this tree needs to be tweaked.
the dmg per force cost on lightning is a bit ridiculous.
what would be cool is if you could take this tree instead of taking the saber tree, and as a default attack you would swing your cane or a basic lightsaber that is given @ the novice box. the skills such as lightning would dictate your damage output.
i think powers make the jedi very starwarsy, ie force push (force kd).
get rid of the animal calm skills and just leave mind trick @ the master box. and in that animal force skill line, replace it with force pull or something. where when you use it, it would unequip the person's weapon. hahaha. yea i know. longshot. (thats what i wanted disarming shot to do, in pistoleer)
here's another idea, merge the powers tree with the enhancement tree, and get rid of the usless skills.
in all seriousness, a lot of the better templates out there do not involve the powers tree =/