CUEmu - Thread Posts

AltharXXX

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:22 pm

OMG -Continued

I'd like to agree with some people -

1. Show us hidden details when we are crafting given we have some expertise in our field. A master should be able to tell that the storage modules he is about to put into the assembly are JUNK. A master should be able to tell if the configuration isn't going to work.

( Maybe give them 2 rolls - let them take the better of the two... Maybe add details to what is shown when you are assembling.)

2. Towns ... First my armorsmith is a resident in a manufactoring sector. As he is grinding armorweave segments I've noticed the following. 4%-10% base results IN TOWN. 10%-14% base results OUT OF TOWN. I haven't sat down and noted this exactly so it's more a casual observation at this point, and it may apply to more than just armorweave segments.

Please add an indicator in the crafting window BEFORE ASSEMBLY that the town modification is in place.

The description of what Manufactoring Sector is fairly vague - my first read made me think... Okay I can get a 94% windmill in coronet, I should be able to get a 10% bonus to that final result and get a windmill which is 100% or 103.4% depending on how cruel the devs were feeling when they implemented this... YET - I see no difference in windmills crafted with the same materialsand same skills. I'm not going to create statistics for 'critical failure rates' -- how about ADDING stats to the session so I can see my success rate for the session and make them have lots of numbers... I like numbers. Rates of success for every type of object and globally.

3. tools

It has been shown that tools only effect is on critical failure for assembly. (I've seen a statistical write up with chi-squared numbers in it to this effect.) If the tool has a positive or negitive impact on the crafting - please give an indicator of this influence on the current window (ie, assembly or experimentation or even the coloring window if it applies there.)

4. stations

Althar Maru, Flurry Janta Assassin
status: retired

Would you care to test out a 400 year old sword to see if it's decayed to condition 0? All the prior testers have no comment. Perhaps a gun which was used in WW I and still fires with high accuracy upto 1km?

If that doesn't get you, then start reading current military specifications for combat equipment.

Bad_Bad_Leroy

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:24 pm

#327

TAfirehawk wrote:

ThorsAnvil wrote:

I hear what your saying, 65 faillures doesnt seem that bad. BUT

if its 40 Town hall's its catastrophic.

Architects don't have critical fails on assembly that lose resources.Use /next /next /next /createPrototype /createPrototype to get the item. This is NOT an exploit but a documented fix for Architects because of the large resource usage.

Doesn't this work for any crafter? Back when I was macro'ing some weaponsmith boxes, I would NEVER get a crit fail while using the macro (so I only had to click resources).

If not, it should :-) Sure, architects have the greatest risk based on amount of resources, but for many of their schematics the quality of the resource doesn't matter. That, imho, evens it out with the crafters who may use less resources, but have just a hard time collecting enough since quality counts.

Creb - Doctor, Swordswookiee (SRA Master of Medicine, Sunrunner)
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BristaAB

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:07 pm

#328

There is a general trend in SWG to become easier. This is unfortunate as it starts to detract from the game. Isolated corners of the adventure planets which once were the exclusive preserve of the game's best players are now full of day-tripping Novices using immune-to-attack vehicles

Probably where this trend is most noticeable and most deeply regretted is in the crafting professions.

Architects wrangled a break on critical fails. Now their profession is full of distressed veteran architects being brutally undercut by new people who are attracted by a profession which is completely easy and has had its main drawback removed. In the past the good architects planned for a crit fail disaster and coped. Now all you really need to do is find a good ore spot and cut & paste a macro and yay you're a Master Architect and can flood the market with 20k Medium mines

Crafting needs to become harder, not softer

Some of the same people who have posted here in favour of softening crit fails would be horrified if their professions become so easy that their competitors start charging 2 cpu per resource used in a finished product

What I would like to see is more of a range during assembly. Most crafts are great successes once you hit Master, a quite huge number. In fact I don't even look any more, I skip straight to experimentation without reading the "great success" message

This is where crafting assembly could be enhanced, let's make the game more interesting, no dumb it down further please

[Black] Style is everything - so is winning [Black]
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Wire3k

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:12 pm

#329

Ok, my .02 here - buried on the eleven-eleventith page.

Crafters craft for many reasons, some like to create instead of destroy - some like to make their own gear, some like to be merchants, some just like making stuff and giving it away.

The GAME part of being a crafter - especially in a system like SWG isn't whether you crit fail or succeed - it's knowing your product - what goes into it for the best outcome - socializing and to some - marketing.

The ONLY reasonable excuse for a crit fail system is to keep down the rate of entry of items into the world - but in a system where factories and harvesters exist - this argument is a nonstarter. All failures do under a system such as SWG is tick crafters off and make them feel like they've wasted time. Even at the recent increased ratio of crits - it's not going to affect anything other than the crafters bloodpressure.

In SWG's particular case given that not all trades have the same ratio of combines - some are one shot - some take many multiple subcomponents, it's also a little out of skew. As a tailor making biowear - I have 3 - count'em - 3 chances of everything going up in smoke. Once on the tissue, once on the cloth - and then the final product. The only sane argument to this system would be the more combines the more rare and valuable the endproduct - but with mass production - nothing is all that super rare or valuable. It's just not fun seeing hours of work cumulate in failure. The actual end production of the final product isn't the 'game' - preparation and gathering up to that point is.

At the very least - by the time someone has 'mastered' a profession - their chances of failure should be tiny - or return their ingredients.

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Lofenagado

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:13 pm

#330

absolutly...if we got some of the resources back on crit fails i wouldn't have a problem with it...especially on resource heavy items such as houses, vehicles and what not

Lofenagado - Corbantis

Velor

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:18 pm

#331

Ok,

I still think there's something screwy here. I was on dant gathering DNA to make creature, made out 4 there no problem.

Went home to Brenn on Naboowith my best samples (since it is a manufacturing city and has the crafting bonus) and my next 2 attempts to make a DNA template were critical fails, and I lost all my DNA bar 1 sample

This was the same place where I was getting my 50% fails last night. Maybe there's a problem with too much success turning into a fail??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Illienne Celaine, Hunters Lodge
Naboo, Brenn (UNA superstore -3065, 3329)

Risenstar

Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:26 am

#332

I have only2 requests that I think are bugs.

1. Fixed Criticals so they go to 1 not to zero.

Reason: There is no logical reason when someone is Experimenting that on first attempt it goes to zero. With points left over they have no use for. Seems only reasonable that it goes to one and with7 points or more left they would have a chance to make something respectable.

2. FixExperimentation on Harvester, final combine. If you experiment up to Max BER on a harvester and use what expermentation that is left on Storage, then have a critical on storage you lose a BER Level [ 10 to 9 for medium ]. Now this is wrong and should not happen. Most Architects now state that if you get the Max BER level on machines DO NOT !!! DO NOT !!! Experiment on Storage or there is a chance you will lose that max level BER to a critical failure on storage. Only takes one and you cannot do anything about it.

As for all the testing....Yesterday I made 6 Medium mineral machines. And had a Critical on 5 of the 6 combines in Expermentation. So only 1 machine came out to be a 10. 1 of the 6 Criticals was on Storage after I already got BER 10 and ended up with BER 9 because of current bug. 2 of the 6 Criticals were on first attempt for BER. So they were wasted machines that I have to take a loss at because people dont buy BER 7 mineral machines Unless they are at 2 cp per mineral. Because of the 65% cap on Lowgrade I lose money.

Thanks for Listen, though with as long as this is do not think I will be heard. I do bug when I Crit on storage as I do not think you should lose a BER level because of it.

Risenstar

Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:43 am

#333

Not to bring in another game but I think this is perfect example. Everquest had a big problem withpeople complaining that crafters were cheating them, even though they were failing on an attempt to make High profile items with very rare resources. To solve this big issue Everquestmade it possible, that when grouped,players in that group could see the results of the crafters work.

Is this possible in Star Wars Galaxies? Is it possible to show everytime something is Combined the final results on the screen. So if a Critical occurs player cannot complain to individual crafting. Yes they will be upset, but the Criticals...as stated are here to stay.

Doing in larger font so quick browsing it will catch developers eye.

Is this possible in Star Wars Galaxies that when players aregrouped,players in that groupcan see the results of the crafters work?

Again apologies for the large font, just want this question to be seen. This benifits many classes with issues of being called Thieves when it is just bad luck.

Thanks

Seshemw

Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:57 am

#334

Gnomepunter wrote:
Yes, critical failures are fine and should be in a crafting system but, with Architects, you loose TONS of resources. 100 times more at one shot than every other crafter out there.
We Architects never asked to do away with them totally, just do away with loosing subcomponents on a final combine. We could deal with loosing the raw resources on a final combine but, to loose all those subcomponents that ALREADY PASSED is wrong.
Would a car manufactuere throw away the whole car because the axle failed while making it? You don't throw the entire car away, you replace the broken part.
On a crit failure, pick ONE of the pieces to fail and ONLY that piece fails. The crafter then replaces that ONE part (or resource) and continues on.

Heck, take a critfail on your schematic using milk. Feel the pain yet?
How about when the tailor critfails turning that tissue into cloth?
Or turning the cloth into clothing?

Or eggs, to a lesser extent. It's more available than milk, but if you're trying to do ANYTHING in quantity with a resource that takes significant time to aquire (and can't be harvester aquired), see how it feels.

--
Nivis Nix [TLC] - Rori
Master Sergeant - Imperial ground forces, detached

Thunderheart

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:12 am

#335

Vashner wrote:

Will removing fizzles unbalance SWG and it's economy? NO.. will it threaten people learing crafting professions NO. ...

Then why do we have it?

For the same reason there are critical fails in all games. There is a chance for critical fail and also critical successes. Its a great risk vs reward mechanic. Its game play. Without risk versus reward, there is no "game".

There isn't an RPG out there that doesnt include a chance for failure and "crit fails".

Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Community Relations Manager

Manipulative

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:12 am

#336

We are led to believe that all of the following impact the experimentation/assembly result:

Malleability of the resources

Rating of the crafting tool

Rating of the crafting station (if any)

Complexity of the item

Skill of the craftsperson

Research Center of a player city

My problem with your numbers, and I now realize you did this on purpose, is that you gave us none of this info. why? Why? WHY? It need not be a secret. Just tell us, please.

Also, if 5% of my experimentation is supposed to fail, and I experiment 10 times to create an item, that means 50% of the items I create should have a crit fail at some point during experimation. Obviously, I know I don't crit fail on 50% of the items I experiment on, but I do crit fail on more than 5% of the total items I experiment on. At times, yes indeed, it is 50%, and on those days, it truly is NOT FUN, to be a master craftsperson. If only 5% of all of the items I experimented on crit failed, I would probably be ok, with that. Maybe. I'd definitely have to experience it to believe it.

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LeBob

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:17 am

#337

Manipulative wrote:

We are led to believe that all of the following impact the experimentation/assembly result:

Malleability of the resources

Rating of the crafting tool

Rating of the crafting station (if any)

Complexity of the item

Skill of the craftsperson

Research Center of a player city

My problem with your numbers, and I now realize you did this on purpose, is that you gave us none of this info. why? Why? WHY? It need not be a secret. Just tell us, please.

Also, if 5% of my experimentation is supposed to fail, and I experiment 10 times to create an item, that means 50% of the items I create should have a crit fail at some point during experimation. Obviously, I know I don't crit fail on 50% of the items I experiment on, but I do crit fail on more than 5% of the total items I experiment on. At times, yes indeed, it is 50%, and on those days, it truly is NOT FUN, to be a master craftsperson. If only 5% of all of the items I experimented on crit failed, I would probably be ok, with that. Maybe. I'd definitely have to experience it to believe it.

probabilites cannot be applied to such small test data... a 50% chance of a crit fail means that as the number of attempts tends to infinity the number of failures tends to 50% of the total attempts

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Anabelle

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:19 am

#338

Thunderheart wrote:

Vashner wrote:

Will removing fizzles unbalance SWG and it's economy? NO.. will it threaten people learing crafting professions NO. ...

Then why do we have it?

For the same reason there are critical fails in all games. There is a chance for critical fail and also critical successes. Its a great risk vs reward mechanic. Its game play. Without risk versus reward, there is no "game".

There isn't an RPG out there that doesnt include a chance for failure and "crit fails".

I understand the risk vs reward idea overall... but as a tailor I have to ask where is our "critical success"

As a class with nothing to experiment on (currently?) we just get the risk, there is no reward. An amazing sucess is meaningless if there is no bonus that comes along with it.

Zolus Couture
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Thread: Crafting Critical Failure Rates