Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Crafting Critical Failure Rates
TH, your "risk/reward" concept is wrong.
There is no "skill" to crafting, so how can a crafter "play the game" to avoid critical failures?
It's not like examining a Mob to decide if to fight or not, and once fighting, to employ tactics to avoid being killed.
It's CRAFTING. The risk/reward should be high/low quality.
You guys think kicking people in the jewels is all part of the fun? Not me.
Thunderheart wrote:Chrysalide and I are working closely together. There is no budging on most items, but for all of these high end crafting items, we are working on a good compromise.
Not sure if I've mentioned this idea or not, but maybe I'll mention it again.
It was a great first step, not destroying inputs for critical failures on Architect structures, though it goes too far for Architects, and does nothing for other crafting professions (except breed envy).
Here was my thought, tweak that change, and apply it to all crafting.
First, a critical failure, for any and all crafting sessions means that all resources are lost.
Second, critical failures, for any and all crafting sessions never means that subcomponents are lost.
This would apply equally to the 25 credit electronics part in some cheap little product and to the many 8,000 credit walls in a PA Hall.
To my knowledge, this would slightly hurt Architects, as I believe nothing is lost in a critical failure of a structure, and now the raw resource inputs would be lost... but this is a fairly small fraction of a structure's overall cost, and I would imagine the Architect fix may have been a temporary one, until a better solution could be designed and implemented.
Some numbers... (I happen to have large house numbers in front of me, or I would have looked up PA Hall numbers. Also, I'm going to exclude the two Master Artisan components needed, because I don't know exactly how many resources are required for them... but it's VERY small in comparison to overall house resource requirements, maybe 10-50 resource units).
Total Resources: 29275
Resources in Subcomponents: 25125 (85.8%)
Resources in final combine: 4150 (14.2%)
Simply saving all subcomponents from loss to critical failure removes more than 85% of the crippling bite of failure which can really kill new Architects, while keeping resources vulnerable to failure maintains a slight sting.
This would greatly help any other crafter dealing with high-end merchandise. The loss of a 100k credit blaster is just as painful as the loss of a 100k credit home... but the bulk of that price is tied up in the quality subcomponents (which have already passed success rolls) and rare loot drops, such as Krayt Dragon Pearls.
With this system, you still risk the chance of loosing all the resources that make up any final product (at some point... if not in the final combine, then in the prior combines of the subcomponents), and also insures that no one ever has to handle the severe blow of loosing rare and expensive loot components such as Pearls, tissues, and armor segments.
As for no budging on most items... I don't have every schematic at my fingertips, but I would imagine most items have no subcomponents, and would be unaffected by the changes. All other items would still risk the loss of resources, but not the redundancy of critical fail rolls effecting subcomponents.
One interesting note, a Large House has a sub of a Power Core Unit, which has a sub of a Generator Turbine (which has 1450 resources). Because it's in depth, before the Architect changes, those 1450 resources (at 3cpu around 4,350 credits worth) are risked to failure 3 times before they take their place in a final product. I imagine several professions have similar depth issues.
Lazarus Long
Thunderheart wrote:
StarchMonkey wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
...It's horrible to spend all your hard earned money on vibro motors, krayt tissues, pearls, force crystals, etc...only to have a critical failure sending millions of credits down the toilet!
TH, I really wonder if anyone on the Dev team understands or has really experienced this part of the crafting game extensively. I'd like someone on the Dev team to role up a Master Armorsmith and find a group to go camp the Woolamander temple for3 daysand wait to get a hide, then go to Lok and kill 400 G. Dune Kimos for a scale, and wait 3 months for the vendusii ore to spawn and then go and Crit Fail on the RIS boots. NOt to mention getting the Gurk Hide or albatross feather. Not fun...
How can blowing krayt tissues on a T21 be fun? How is having someone give you 15 40% krayt segments for armor and then crit failing on the chestplate enhance the game? "Sorry, I know I'm a master armorsmith, but I just ruined the chestplate. I'm sorry I just lost a million credits for you". How can spending 20 million on the krayt pearls for a Jedi and crit failing be fun? Especially when you have to craft a new lightsaber every week or so. I thought the FAQ specifically said that Jedi would "have the ability to repair and maintain their lightsaber". I'm positive I read that at one point in the pre-launch Jedi FAQ. As far as I'm concerned a lightsaber should be a Jedi's 'baby'. They should only ever HAVE to craft one.
I can see keeping the experimentation crit fails (but the rate needs to be looked at like we are saying), but this crit fail on assembly is just rediculous. Its not fun, it makes people mad, and in certain cases like the rediculous RIS quest, it could be game ending.
Chrysalide and I are working closely together. There is no budging on most items, but for all of these high end crafting items, we are working on a good compromise.
I hate failures, but i like that they are there...
This is a game after all. .... who would bungy-jumping if there was no gravity.
For the same reason there are critical fails in all games. There is a chance for critical fail and also critical successes. Its a great risk vs reward mechanic. Its game play. Without risk versus reward, there is no "game".
There isn't an RPG out there that doesnt include a chance for failure and "crit fails".
WoW claims they won't have it? What does this add to the game?
Strohm
Thunderheart wrote:There isn't an RPG out there that doesnt include a chance for failure and "crit fails".
If I'm not mistaken either Horizons or the upcoming UOX have an option to remove the chance of failure but requires more resources to be used as a trede-off. What about this as an option? or is there some kind of copyright law on that?
CANCELLED NOVEMBER 2, 2005 - SOE BURN IN HELL Okay I accept the straight crafting results had about 4% critical fails this fits with what i generaly experience when doing continuous crating while grinding. However, my own experience as a MBE is that many things like lag and moving items around in your inventory or loading/unloading tools sets up the next crafting effort for an automatic critical failure. Many many times ive gone and collected 5 dna pieces then run off toa safe distance so nothing can agro me... enter all the DNA and then poof crit fail on assembly... so much so that b4 I ever try making a template. I always do a test run and make some dough or a camp first so itll absorb the crit fail.
Arimah
Intrepid Server
Ex Master Carbinier
Master Bio-Engineer
Master Tailor
Thunderheart wrote:
Gnomepunter wrote:Yes, critical failures are fine and should be in a crafting system but, with Architects, you loose TONS of resources. 100 times more at one shot than every other crafter out there.
We Architects never asked to do away with them totally, just do away with loosing subcomponents on a final combine. We could deal with loosing the raw resources on a final combine but, to loose all those subcomponents that ALREADY PASSED is wrong.
Would a car manufactuere throw away the whole car because the axle failed while making it? You don't throw the entire car away, you replace the broken part.
On a crit failure, pick ONE of the pieces to fail and ONLY that piece fails. The crafter then replaces that ONE part (or resource) and continues on.
Stick with me guys, thats what Im saying.
First of all, its a good mechanic, but in this setting the risk and penalty have to be measured and thats whats being discussed...
I honestly dont think that anyone would have many problems with the current failure rates if there actually WAS a "chance of spectacular success" to offset the "Spectacular failure" aspect.
Currently, all crafters are bound to a maximum set of values based on the quality of thier resources, and knowing this, there is NO compensation to a 1 in 100 failrate such as a 1 in 100, or 1 in 200 amazing success rate. I can craft a infintesmally similar item of same quality on a "good" success than an "amazing" success.
If amazing successes bumped the maximum results up by 10%, then THAT would be the definition of a crafter's true Mastery over his craft, and then any crit fails could be explained as pennance for striving for perfection.
Of course those 10% max result items would need to be prevented from turned into a schematic for mass-production. Where is the fine-tuning and attention to detail that accompanies an item made my machines?
I have been a master architect since week 3 of launch and the crital faliures are just plain asburd i mean im a master architect i should fail maybe 1 out of every 1000 times or something like that it goes with out saying i have the max experince i can earn i have aquired all the skills the game will let me have. i am the best of the best, the cream of the crop if you dont reduce the amount of crital failuers master have then work out something that we can savalage the items so we can build again or something to that effect like maybe only 2 walls failed out of 20 while building a town hall
there have been times i have failed 5 times in a row "IN A ROW" i use +14.91 crafting tools and +43 machines and im using materials all over 700 most stats even the stats i need are all over 900 like for building harvesters. thank you for taking the time to look into this
omg - well -
Playing a doctor working on crafting xp for 4444 (I'm 4443 now) - I must say ....
ASSEMBLY ---------------------
I've have A LOT more than 65 out of 1446 failures for grinding out solid delivery shells (an item which is what medic crafting 1 ?)
I'm using the worst wheat I have and some fairly bad petro. (OQ on both is under 100).
My tools are over 14 "functionality" ... but that really doesn't seem to make a difference, as I *seem* to have just as many fairlures with the new tools as the old.
When I was a novice medic, I thought the fairlure rate was cool. It shouldn't be easy for a novice to always succeed. As a doctor, I'm wondering if it was worth it to get an FR 42 medical crafting station and good tools.
EXPERIMENTATION -----------
First off, while critical failure rates may be 4.21% ... success equates to failure. (On armorsmith if I see a "success" then the item stats go DOWN.)
Now, if I experiment up every pip one step at a time I see more "GREAT SUCCESSES" than anything else. and if I do 10 pips at once I see more lesser results. Sure, doing 10 pips and getting an amazing result is great in medicine... but oddly in my experience in weapon crafting it's better to get 10 'greats' than 1 great or even 1 amazing...
I think it shouldn't be that way. The chance you get a 'critical failure' increases as you use more pips. if I'm using OQ 1000 stuff even at 10 pips the chance of failure tends to be indicated as 0 (red flashing bars). If I use 10 pips at once I should at least have the same distribution of fair/good/excellent/amazing results as with 1 at a time. And using 1 at a time shouldn't give better results than the risk taking method.
Master doc on tempest
Makes factory plans for 50 stamina pacs on monday night during prime time hours: effect 8 crit fails in a row. Logs till next morning. Next morning busts one out first try.
same master doc 1 day later
Makes factory plans for 50 consition pacs around the same time of buzy night: 4 crit fails in a row. Logs till next morning. Next morning busts one out first try????
5% fail ok fine thats fine
whats really happening????? um you tell me please!!!