Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-17 Star Wars Galaxies Combat Profession Mix and Match
I-B_Bangin
Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:39 am
#326
First look at your basic professions and their spin offs:
Marksman >
-Rifleman
-Carbineer
PatsyJim
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:37 am
#327
There is no specialization in this game. Each combat profession has a lame action hit, most have knockdowns, most have group attacks. It is the same with the supposed unique animals of each planet. Every planet has a brackeset offshoot and a piket clone. This is because the developers wanted to reuse the models rather than creating original content. Also, this is probably not their fault, but really some executive's deadline. This game has always been rushed and it has always been bugged. They are either understaffed at SOE or they don't give a crap about their community. A master commando should never be taken out by a master fencer no matter what the situation. Melee, excluding lightsabers, is a dead art in the realStar Wars Galaxy, and yet in this game you have Master Fencers running around with their stun batons owning people in PVP. It just lame. PVP, like battlefields, have always sucked and never worked well. I got an idea, lets create an uber-dungeon filled with supposedly outdatedbattledroids thatcan easily roll 5 specializedcharacters, whenin the movies,a 15 yr oldqueen and an ultra lame gungancould easily roll the same droids, back when they were actually state of the art.Here is another one,rush out a janked version of the JTL add on to try tosupplement the numbersof community verterans that are leaving because they are sick of the run around. Just wait it is comming...
GBowman
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:15 pm
#328
I would like to see a Rock-Paper-Scissor approach to combat.
1) Any given profession has its advantages over another profession, while having weaknesses against another.
2) Each type of Armor should offer an advantage and disadvantage over other types of armor. The same thing with weapons. I dont like how everyone uses the same type of pistol, or rifle, etc, and everyone wears Composite and Ubese armor. I do like how Ubese offers better Kinetic Protection then other armors. But the other Armor types need to be given a good advatage and disadvantage as well. For Example, Composite could be good against Energy and Heat, but poor against Kinetic and Blast. I wouls also limit the maximum base protection any armor has, while the special protection could be higher.
3) For weapons, I like how they offer differant damage types, but again, some weapons are obsolete because of low damage for the damage type, poor rates of fire, or HAM costs. Each weapon should have its place in combat.
I dont like how combat is resolved by who has the better buffs and armor, or more people. I would like to see combat be long and drawn out, and require tactics and coordination, not the quick rush, incap, DB, clone/rez, rush back, incap, DB, clone/rez that we have now. It should take Doctors some time to rez another player, and they should be vulnerable while doing so. I would also like to see more defenses, structures that offer defense bonuses while inside, and you can fire out of them.
1) Any given profession has its advantages over another profession, while having weaknesses against another.
2) Each type of Armor should offer an advantage and disadvantage over other types of armor. The same thing with weapons. I dont like how everyone uses the same type of pistol, or rifle, etc, and everyone wears Composite and Ubese armor. I do like how Ubese offers better Kinetic Protection then other armors. But the other Armor types need to be given a good advatage and disadvantage as well. For Example, Composite could be good against Energy and Heat, but poor against Kinetic and Blast. I wouls also limit the maximum base protection any armor has, while the special protection could be higher.
3) For weapons, I like how they offer differant damage types, but again, some weapons are obsolete because of low damage for the damage type, poor rates of fire, or HAM costs. Each weapon should have its place in combat.
I dont like how combat is resolved by who has the better buffs and armor, or more people. I would like to see combat be long and drawn out, and require tactics and coordination, not the quick rush, incap, DB, clone/rez, rush back, incap, DB, clone/rez that we have now. It should take Doctors some time to rez another player, and they should be vulnerable while doing so. I would also like to see more defenses, structures that offer defense bonuses while inside, and you can fire out of them.
DarkAzael
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:54 pm
#329
Combat is fine as it is.
People say TKA master is to powerful nah, killed four of them as a combat medic/ swordsman. TKA is strong as a tank and a solo player which is good for the game.
All professions have there weakness, you just have to know how to play your Chosen skills to its max, becarful what you have chosen.
A few touch ups, on NPCs is what the game needs. for example, This is how i think the NPCs should sit in terms of str, def, Ham etc:
These ones should be aranged like this, starting from top stats to bottom:
Dark Troopers - Reason - Dark troopers use an update endoskeleton from SBD this is why it should be the most powerfulist.
Super battle droids - Reason - Strong but old droids not That good AI in them.
Storm Commandos - The most avanced trained clone
Rebel Commandos - The only rebels that can take on Stormtroopers apart from players.
Destroyer droids - Strong, should have personal shield aswell, AI problems, not that good apart from guarding.
Stormtroopers - The Empires elite, everything under this should be scared of these faceless warriors, and they are highly trained, not mindless droids as jango said in epsII
All types of Officers - not armoured, Many near had done any combat action apart from training ( how ever they should be hihly guarded depending on rank)
Rebel Marines - We have the armour, where are they, not that good still rebels slightly trained.
Battle Droids - Mindless droids, easy to kill, should be very weak but in high numbers strong.
Imperial and rebel troops (no armour) - easy to kill, low level player stuff or newbies
This is what you should change not all professions
DarkAzael
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:55 pm
#330
Combat is fine as it is.
People say TKA master is to powerful nah, killed four of them as a combat medic/ swordsman. TKA is strong as a tank and a solo player which is good for the game.
All professions have there weakness, you just have to know how to play your Chosen skills to its max, becarful what you have chosen.
A few touch ups, on NPCs is what the game needs. for example, This is how i think the NPCs should sit in terms of str, def, Ham etc:
These ones should be aranged like this, starting from top stats to bottom:
Dark Troopers - Reason - Dark troopers use an update endoskeleton from SBD this is why it should be the most powerfulist.
Super battle droids - Reason - Strong but old droids not That good AI in them.
Storm Commandos - The most avanced trained clone
Rebel Commandos - The only rebels that can take on Stormtroopers apart from players.
Destroyer droids - Strong, should have personal shield aswell, AI problems, not that good apart from guarding.
Stormtroopers - The Empires elite, everything under this should be scared of these faceless warriors, and they are highly trained, not mindless droids as jango said in epsII
All types of Officers - not armoured, Many near had done any combat action apart from training ( how ever they should be hihly guarded depending on rank)
Rebel Marines - We have the armour, where are they, not that good still rebels slightly trained.
Battle Droids - Mindless droids, easy to kill, should be very weak but in high numbers strong.
Imperial and rebel troops (no armour) - easy to kill, low level player stuff or newbies
This is what you should change not all professions
MoonhellWarriors
Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:18 am
#331
someone mentionned a permanent perk when you master a profession...
If you master WS, you could get +20 repair weapon lol... even if you drop it, you don't lose that small perk. Scout could permanently give you +10 terrain negociation...
JadeShalan
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:27 am
#332
Im kinda off subject on this but why can't neutral players attack who they want when looking at the movies since Im a Bounty Hunter I love Jango & Boba Fett and seeing in the position they were in being neutral they could have killed who they wanted to kill Good Bad whoever whenever however. I can't be the most wanted Bounty Hunter wanted for dead or feared if I have to sit and wait for a duel. it should be a full faction pvp or bad faction status full pvp game. thats how we would see whos actually winning the Galatic war and it would force factions into staying in there own areas and not have multi faction citys and stuff.....I think things are getting out of hand.
Munter
Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:06 am
#333
Sorry, all out PvP will not work.
This would be like in RL everyone threashing everyone. There need to be rules for engagement. Factions are one way of enforcing those rules. The idea then might be that if you choose a certain faction you then automatically will accept PvP. Ex: if you choose to be a BH then you are automatically PvP to every other BH. NAH! that does not work either, for crappy master killers would pray uppon the novice BH's.
So..let us then consider that only master combat levels will be automatically PvP with other master combat levels. That might work to a point. Because everyone that wishes for example to be a master BH would know they automatically would enter PvP status. The drawback there is that in my opinion a lot of players would then avoid master status to escape PvP.
The fact is that (as I see it) the majorety of players do avoid PvP.
Timithos-Chau
Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:01 pm
#334
For some people that say combat balancing is impossible, I think they're wrong. For others that say the system is already balanced, I say, "What are you smoking and where can I get some?" If you just study the profession skill trees, you can tell stuff is way out of whack. I'm not going to get into every flaw (or glaring mistake really), but I'll share with you a few examples and some of my rebalancing ideas.
First of all, the concept of balancing requires small changes, not sweeping, huge changes. Sweeping, huge changes just cause more imbalance and it doesn't fix anything. To achieve a balance in most anything requires slight modifications on both sides. The very nature ofbalanceis precarious.
Here is another principle about combat balance. Pvp is a much more delicate, precarous balance to achieve. Pve is easy compared to pvp. In pvp you have players in competition with players looking for every edge the can get a hold of. Some are inconstant search of the perfect template, the perfect equipment, the perfect food/drink/spice combo, etc. etc. AI Encounters in pve do not have an intelligence anywhere near what a player can achieve. So pve balancing is easy compared to pvp balancing. That is why pvp balance must be achieved first, and then pve balancing is a walk in the park.
When you're talking about balancing templates, the only thing you can really balance are those characters that spend all 250 skill points in combat offensive, defensive and cmbat suppor professions. Forget about trying to balance a master armorsmith or tailor. These people will always lose in pvp (except in groups)and will never achieve balance. Forget about trying to balance a character who has spent anything less then 250 skill points in combat related professions. That will never work.
People complain about stacking defenses. Currently there is a +125 cap on defenses. If that is too high of a stack, then tweak it down to +120 , +115 or +110. This tweak would properly reduce the strength of high defense templates, and encourage players to curb their defense mentality into something more diversified. Someone might say, well I think the stacking cap should be changed to +80 or we should get rid of stacking all together. No, that is too extreme. Balance cannot be achieved with extremes.
Some specials on the skill trees are either too weak or too strong, or you get them too early or way too late. Sniping Shot for rifleman is a good example of a strong special that you get just by dabbling up one branch. Sniping should probably be a Master Rifleman ability. There are a lot of specials that need to be moved up the tree, down the tree, or placed "out of reach" in the master box.
Weapon certifications on most every profession are awarded too early. They need to be tweaked up and placed higher in the trees.
Some weapons the damage is rediculously high - like flame throwers and power hamers - while other weapons are too low. You can't achieve balance with extreme weapons.
Some professions have a wide range of weapons to choose from, with a wide range of damage types, and other professions have a limited range of weapons to choose from with a limited range of damage types. While one combat profession may be able to deal out 6 types of damage, another profession can only deal out 2. This is not balanced. Of the 7 or whatever damage types, each profession should have the weaponry to deliver 3-4 damage types. For instance, TK has a vibro knuckler that delivers kinetic damage.. oooh. Its the only profession with a damage bonus and they stack that right on top of your knuckler when you finally reach novice.How about a katar that punches through armor and injects acid, or regular brass knuckles (given at unarmed 2), or special brass knuckles that deliver an electrical charge. Each of these weapon would be spread out equally on your way to TKM. On the other extreme, pistoleer's have plenty of damage types to choose from (especially if you go bounty hunter or commando). If you're a pistoleer, you have so much variety you could probably shove a a certainpistolup your butt and give yourself an enima.
Obviously the armor system has to be revamped. Everyone is wearing Composite with a slight vulnerablity to stun. That causes template limitations right there. Doctor buffs are too extreme. It gets everyone focused on hitting the mind. Perhaps if the greatest buff were +2600, we could tweek it down to +2000 and play test that. Stuff like this creates the Rifleman/CM who poisons/diseases at a distance and then does mind shots with a stun damage rifle.
Defensive and offensive combat bonuses should not be located in one branch. They should be spread out in at LEAST two branches of a profession tree. Specials should be spread out more too.
Useless Branches: Many weapon combat professions have them. Every branch in the main weapon-type combat profession treesshould be useful for combat. As it stands now,we have some uselesscombat profession branches that just saves the dabbler skill points. (Combat support professionlike smuggler, bounty hunter, etc. are of course different.)Useful means there should be offensive bonuses, defensive bonuses, specials, and weapon certifications up every branch, making each branch worth pursuing. This prevents a dabbler from doing a 0040 up a profession and then, volla, they get their extreme defensive or offensive bonuses. And again if they're dabbling that way to get a certain special, than maybe that special should be placed in the master box.
Here's an idea that might work especially in the area of extreme dabbling. If someone wants to go up a single branch tohit tier 3 or 4, then they must fill out the other branches 2 levels lower. So if they want 0040 in a particular profession, they must go 2242. If they want 3000 in another profession, they must go 3111. That fix gives a sense of realism to what they are trying to achieve in that profession.
One suggestion I read for balancing out CM's was allowing doctors to a resistance buff against poison and disease.
Defenses should also be balanced among the different professions. For a master fencer to have +74 melee defense/+69 ranged defense, and a master pikeman to have +30 melee defense/+25 ranged defense is rediculous and unbalanced. Here we have one profession that has good/good defense and another that has bad/worse defense. All defenses should be balanced across the professions. There can be differences of course, but in order to achieve balance, you must have slight differences. Maybe 40-60 is a good master melee/ranged defense rating for all combat profession. But understand if that is the case, than no profession should be as bad as 40/40, with a total of 80. Maybe one profession has a combined melee/range defense of 104 and another has 93 - that's ok - slight differences.
The same can be said for secondary defenses and damage type defenses. When one profession has +50 in a damage defense and another profession has +0 against that same defense, then that is rediculous and unbalanced. When one profession has a +85 secondary defense bonus and another profession has nothing, that's ludicrous. (Look at TK. It has the only Defense Acuity ability to help activate secondary defenses and yet it has no secondary defenses! Ofcourse you have to stack TK!)When one profession has +20 to +50 on every single damage defense bonus and another master profession has only two bonuses of +15 and +25, that is insane, not balanced.
Another flaw is the progression of bonuses when you head up the tree. When you go from tier 1-4 up a particular branch, for example, it may provide you with a bonus of +15 in whatever at each level for a total of +60. This is stupid. It should be graduated like +5, +10, +15, +30 for the same total of +60. The bigger bonuses should be pushed higher up the tree.
Also,when you head up a combat profession, the skill point cost goes from high to low - 5,4,3,2 and 1 for master. That's dumb. It should be reversed with 1,2,3,4,5.
Lets look at the Master profession boxes. Some are kick butt and others absolutely suck. Lets compare the base professions master brawler to master marksman. Master brawler kicks but, yet master marksman sucks. You can see all the imbalances just by looking at the other master combat boxes. One master profession is loaded with specials and offensive/defensive bonuses, while another master profession is hardly worth anything. This is obviously unbalanced, and need fixing (tweaking).
Obviously, SWG needs to pay attention to the uber template's. After all these balancing issues are tweaked, if we still have uber templates then we need to finally nerf something. But until all this imbalance is fixed, nerfing is not an option except in extreme cases, such as maybe the poision/disease attacks of a combat medic. (Again, proposed a doctor and entertainer disease resistance and poison resistance buffs to tweak the situation.)
I believe that any combination of rifleman, pistoleer, carbineer, teras kasi, fencer, swordman, and pikeman should be able stand against each other fairly well. This way players who are grinding through profession to unlock jedi and hold a masters in any one of these can still be decent in combat. Not everyone would have to be a master fencer to survive as a one-master combatant. Don't get mewrong though. I believe a slight rock, paper, scissoreffect should exist, but in order for it to be balanced the ephasis is on the word SLIGHT.When a CM can take out just about any profession out there, that's not rock, paper, scissors. That is rock, paper, scissors, NUCLEAR MISSILE. Can you guess which one will win? You can't have both balanced pvp and extremerock-paper-scissors. You can gave balanced gvg (group vs group), but not balanced pvp. Again the rock-paper-scissors effect must be slight in order to achieve balance.
As far as pve is concerned, pvp balancing will solve pve aside from one thing. The monsters need better defenses and less vulnerabilities to put it simply. Theharder ones needto be killed by a group in other words, unfortunately grouping needs to be revamped, but that's a whole other ball of wax. Now, I don't mind someone being able to solo to master, but it should be harder in a sense. Instead of only killing 5 different monsters on 2 planets to get from 0 to master. They should have to go after 15 different monsters on 3+ planets to find the right vulnerabilities/xp payout/quickness of kill that they need. When I solo every master profession on Quenkers and Huurton Stalkers on planet Dantooine.. something is lacking (you think? lol).
Anyway, obviously anyone looking at the profession trees with an ounce of intelligence can tell they are really messed up. No template should be uber over everyone like the CM/Rifleman,Fencer/Pistoleer, Pistoleer/BH 0040, etc..Professions like combat medic, bounty hunter, commando, smuggler etc are beyond my understanding to balance out and I'll leave that to others.No template should be useless in pvp like apikeman/swordsman/carbineer. LEAVE NO TEMPLATE BEHIND! 
Munter
Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:27 pm
#336
"For some people that say combat balancing is impossible, I think they're wrong"
Well, it depents how ones perceives balance. With two systems as an option (PvE and PvP) one will loose out in the end, me thinks.
"First of all, the concept of balancing requires small changes, not sweeping, huge changes."
Well said, me thinks 
"Here is another principle about combat balance. Pvp is a much more delicate, precarous balance to achieve. "
Indeed, indeed lol. PvP combat banlance is only achieved if I win...isn't it that? PvP players are of three kinds (as I see it)
1) little kids running about with big guns thinking they are great killing everyone else. Sigh..how I wish they would get teen-aged players out of this game (anyone under the age of 18)
2) People with an inferiour ego who just wish to feel great once in their life releasing penned up anxieties.
3) frustrated Executives who want to kick their bosses and don't dare..so they come to SWG to release their frustrations.
oh.. I nearly forgot class number 4
4) Killers at heart...those who just are out there to destroy everyones elses fun.
Ok, ok ...I am a little cheeky here 
The point I wish to make is that in PvP there will be always people who will not be satisfied whatever you do.
The point I wish to make is that in PvP there will be always people who will not be satisfied whatever you do. "Forget about trying to balance a character who has spent anything less then 250 skill points in combat related professions. That will never work."
Just my point..uhh what is my point...It is either PvP or PvE...one can balance the one or the other but not both with each other..hope this makes sense.
"Weapon certifications on most every profession are awarded too early. They need to be tweaked up and placed higher in the trees."
Typical PvP comment. As an PvE player I doNOT agree 
"Some weapons the damage is rediculously high - like flame throwers and power hamers - while other weapons are too low. You can't achieve balance with extreme weapons"
Hmm..what can I say? Have you ever seen a flame thrower in action..i mean a real life one.. not much of a balace there my friend! If you are caught you are dead ! ..unless of course you are in a Tank..sigh...
"Some professions have a wide range of weapons to choose from, with a wide range of damage types, and other professions have a limited range of weapons to choose from with a limited range of damage types. While one combat profession may be able to deal out 6 types of damage, another profession can only deal out 2. This is not balanced."
True, true. I just wonder what damage, other then kinetik, a TK could deal out? appart from that..sigh.. Dead is Dead regardless the damage type. So it is in to my mind not the kind of damage but the resitance of certain armor or NPC's do certain types of damage which is the problem. If as a TK I come across a NPC 100% resitant to kenetik damage I can only turn tail and run...
"Doctor buffs are too extreme."
Yep, and last to long also me thinks.
"Useless Branches: Many weapon combat professions have them."
Well, non-combat professions have them also. My idea would be rather then have the pre-requisits of one profession to gain another profession I would like to have just a free choice of skills which I can learn or not. This in the end would put the ball into my court to create a balanced Char.
Anyhow, need to go to work now.. well thought of article friend..thanks
Lets see what the wizards of SWG have cooked up. I hope it ispalatible. ( is this how you spell it )
) no time to spell-check...sigh
cairnomoer
Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:32 pm
#337
Got to thinking about it some more, maybe make some of the hybrid professions have a smaller tree. It costs more in skill points to get there, but fewer to master. Youare mainly using more of what you gain from the hybridization and are then able to do some extras.
For example, BH could master the comabt tree and hand to hand and short and medium ranged from the next two. Then require master scout and the concealment portion of ranger. Maybe the slicing portion of smuggler since BHs have to occasionally pick a lock to get in to get their mark. Maybe add some incap'ing and duration of incap detection capabilityand add missions that require a live retrieval. They'd need a drag and restraint added too. In pvp, grant slicers the ability to circumvent the restraints.
Maybe make smugglers have hand to hand, combat and short range weapons, organic chem and some artisan (for spices). Maybe requireunusual weapons from the brawler tree.Grant them some dirty fighting specials, like hand to hand with a pistol equipped and dual wieldor something. As well as spice creation and slicing. Maybe grant a bonus to device repair as well (weapons, armor, ships, etc).
Introduce an assassin prof that is the long range counterpart to BH. Needs the basics plus long range and also unusual weapons. Would also require master scout and ranger plus maybe some of the medic tree (so they know exactly where the vitals are). They'd get acalled shot type of thing and maybe some concealment bonus as well as being able todo some BH missions. Maybe make them go TEF when completing a mission. Not many people care for an assassin.
Maybe make bio engineer require master medic and some of doc, hunting from scoutand ranged weapons from the basic combat tree.
ZoronX
Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:50 am
#338
Thunderheart wrote:
In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”.Each archetype has a specific role in combat.Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.
( BORING AND STUPID WHICH IS WHY I CAME TO THIS GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE.)
In a Science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t clear cut.Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession.
( THANK GOD )
( NO THESE PEOPLE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE NARROWLY DEFINED LITTLE WORLDS THEY ARE USED TO PLAYING IN AND LEAVE US GROWN UPS ALONE )
One of the key advantages in SWG’s combat system design is that it escapes these confining roles, allowing players ranged and melee combat roles can be “cherry picked” or hand chosen by players.
( YES , AND THANK YOU )
Players can create hybrid characters that can escape the traditional combat roles of having a single function in combat.This is an advantage we want to maintain, highlight and evolve.
( GREAT )
- What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?
- ( I DEFINE MY ROLE IN SWG NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND... I DONT GIVE A RATS BUTT HOW THINGS WORKED IN THE MOVIES ... BOTTOM LINE... EVEN LUCAS CONTINUES TO ALTER HIS ORIGINAL CREATIONS!!! I LIKE HAVING THAT SAME RIGHT TO TAILOR MY OWN CHARACTERS .I AM FIRMLY AGAINST ANYTHING THAT NARROWS MY ABILITY TOCHOOSE.
- What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
- ( HONESTLY, ANOTHER 150 POINTS TO GIVE EVEN GREATER DEMENSIONS TO MY TOONS )
- How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
( HONESTLY, ANOTHER 150 POINTS TO GIVE EVEN GREATER DEMENSIONS TO MY TOONS )
- What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
( HONESTLY, ANOTHER 150 POINTS TO GIVE EVEN GREATER DEMENSIONS TO MY TOONS )
- Anything else you want to say on this subject?
( HONESTLY, ANOTHER 150 POINTS TO GIVE EVEN GREATER DEMENSIONS TO MY TOONS )
HONESTLY, ANOTHER 150 POINTS TO GIVE EVEN GREATER DEMENSIONS TO MY TOONS