Development Cycle Archive

Ok well, I'm not an artisan ANYMORE... Their jobs are already difficult as it is. Jumping from planet to planet to harvest resources just takes to much time, so most artisans have to buy their stuff which puts prices through the roof. So this is just yet another isseu to make the artisans life more difficult. You devs seem to want to not let things in the game be bountifull, take enhancers for that matter, those things are really hard to find! Most doctors won't sell them.

So here is what I propose, even though I'm sure this won't be read...

I read another players idea about making more use of factory crates. Why don't you make it so you can stuff 1000 subcomponents into a crate, and limit the final product to 50 or whatever, that way to DB doesnt get overcrowded, and people still can't shove as much crap as they want into their homes. And if you can't already, make it so you can actually shove those subcomponent crates into the factories for the final product. Final product crates being limited to whatever number 20 even, doesn't matter. Than make it so the factory can only store say... 5 - 10 crates of final product to get rid of the potential exploit.

I know for a fact though that doctor and architects will get screwed royaly if you enact your origional design... And why the hell do masters still have to deal with critical failures?? They are master for crying out loud! Failures for architects really really hurt! Or at least limit it to 1 out of 10,000.

Assuming there is a hard DB limit, what about changing it so anyone could use schematics? Ie a crafter would create it, give/sell to someone with a factory to produce. The higher quality schematics would carry alot of value and only people with access to factory would have an interest in them.

WORST idea ever. This would kill ALL crafting professions, especially Medics.

I have a few ideas listed below that would be much more beneficial than limiting schematics:

1) Get rid of all the exploit created guns on Bria. Those two weaponsmiths made enough of them to clog down several servers I'd imagine. Track the serials and delete them from the DB.

2) How about introducing decay on factories/furniture/housing? I know it's in the works, but this will really help the db probably.. and give Architects an extra reason to exist.

3) I can't even think of how many times I've run past a harvester (of any size), and it's on fire from low maintenence. Would it be possible to make it so that as soon as the harvester hits a certain percentage (say, 75% condition due to no maintenence input, or 50% if needed), the structure is automatically destroyed? I mean, the Harvester stops collecting resources once maintenence runs out anyways. If people left resources in them... tough luck. Just be sure to somehow send an in game mail to the person stating their harvester has reached 0 maintenece, and if they don't put a sufficient amount of maintenence into it (say, at least the re-deed cost of the harvester, plus the amount needed to repair the harvester), then it will be destroyed after a certain amount of time has passed (2-3 days perhaps?)

4) Also, is there any way to track housing? LOTS of people (PA's, Guilds, businesses, etc), have thrown down homes or harvesters in places just to stop other people from building there. These unused buildings are severely hindering the DB I would imagine.

Perhaps a good idea would be to limit how many houses someone can place (ie, you can only have one house placed on any character's lot). A lot of the problem is storage, and many people are useing rented lots to place extra houses to hold their inventories. Severely up the inventory allotment for houses, and extra houses won't be necessary.

5) I dunno if this idea is feasible or not, but what about introducing Advanced Factories? Makeable at Master Architect, they would be able to create items faster (say, 25-50% faster?), and thus, be much more desireable to high income crafters. They would require a significant amount of resources, and thus, they would be expensive to purchase. The only real problem with this idea is then more items would be produced more quickly (DB monster), and it would squeeze out the part time crafters, who wouldn't be able to fill demands against other crafters who could afford the Adv. Factories.

Just my two credits.

'"How impactful is it? What is a reasonable limit in your mind?"'

Very Impactful. I pay to *play* .... not nursemaid a factory. I play to be a crafter....my chosen field is pharceuticals. If you limit schematics to 100, these things happen:

1. Two crates of Stimpak B take approximately 2 hours to assemble themselves together in a factory. It takes approximately 15 minutes to get a viable schematic due to the recent "lets beat down medicine experimentation stealth nerf" and approximately 10 of each subcomponent. That leaves a crate of 40 and a crate of 50 with your proposed 100 count limit. So, for the first 15 minutes of my factory working on these 2 crates, i create yet another schematic (assuming i had stashed crates of the subs) and then have approximately 1 hour 45 minutes to go do *something*. If that something happens to be something other than checking my harvesters....if it happens to be playing with some friends....then off I would go for 1 hour and 45 minutes only to trundle myself back to my factory to crank out yet another crateof 50 and something less than 50. I guess I could have spent that entire 1 hour and 45 minutes making schematics....I would have gotten maybe 10 schematics I could live with and be able to sell.

2. Of course, thats assuming I had10 pairs of sub components for Stim B. In order to have 10 pairs of sub components i would have to have created 10 schematics each (thats 30 schematics....BIO, LIQUID, CHEM), and waited for approximately 1 hour for each pair of crates to complete. Of course, the better part of the first 2 pairs of crates being manufactured could have been spent BUILDING THE OTHER 28 SCHEMATICS.

3. Currently I am selling crates of Stim B's created using 1000 count sub-schematics and 1000 count finalized schematics. I get about 990 stims, sometimes I get lucky and get 999. Thats 19 full crates of 50, and a crate I use to pull singles from and advertise on the Bazaar. My stims are superior. Typically 360pts @ 25+ heals or more....the current batch is 361 @ 27 heals. I sell these dandies for 25,000 credits per crate. I assure you, I sell the "most healpoints per credit" on my entire server. I promise you that. Why? Because I can. Because I dont have to WORK (a factory is supposed to AUTOMATE a process)....because my factories work for me. If i were to have to WORK, instead of rely on a FULLY AUTOMATED PROCESS (definition of a factory).....my price for crates of Stims would increase. I can assure you if I decide to continue to make them if this *fix* occurs, the price will probably double and more than likely triple. Is that bad? No, not from a profit per resource unit standpoint. It's bad from the standpoint that I will now be *working* rather than *playing* and I assure you, I will not pay you, your company, or a mega corporation $15 a month x three accounts to WORK. I will most assuredly quit. I will not quit making stims to find another role in your game. I will flat out quit your game.

Look at the last word of that paragraph. GAME. Do not make my life and the lives of thousands of doctors out there living hell by making us become factory nursemaids. That is not *playing* and it is NOT a game.

You would not like it if I came to you and said *all SOE and SWG employees can no longer use the restroom....you must go out and dig a latrine every time you want to use the bathroom." Ludicrous, really. It's apples to oranges when compared to this *fix*.....but it is tantamount and I think a very effective analogy.

Please havea look at the definition for the word "Factory" and also take a look at the word "Manufacturing". Certainly, 90 items all identical are *manufactured* and in a *factory* but when the time to produce the item outweighs the profitibility then its time to close the manufacturing facility down. Look all around America and you will see this very occurance. From shoe factories to steel mills, from televisions to remote controls....and on and on. This *fix* will KILL the drive for people to be crafters./manufacturers. What it will create is a glut of resources (like there isnt already but thats a different topic altogehter) and a lack of mass-producers. It will create a whole new "crafter" called the *hand-crafter* who only builds things for himself or a very select group of people. Certainly, people who mass produce stimpaks, medpaks, pet-paks, and booster paks will fall by the wayside and create a huge void of medicenless semi-doctors.

Perhaps thats what you all are shooting for tho. It would not surprise me that a bunch of computer programmers who did not run permutations on resource gathering would also be the same programmers who would limit a manufacturing plant....a factory....to a max of 100 items.

'"I'll state up front that there may be DB reasons why we don't want a huge number here, so I will have to check on whether changing it is feasible at all."'

Perhaps thats what you all are shooting for tho. It would not surprise me that a bunch of computer programmers who did not run permutations on resource gathering would also be the same programmers who would limit a manufacturing plant....a factory....to a max of 100 items. Oooops, i said it again. I guess you pre-empted any attempt at placating the thousands of crafters out there. The schematic ALREADY allows the addition of a zero, or 2 zero's.....or 100000000 zero's. It "IS" feasible. It's already being done. Changing it means you don't WANT it to be feasible. Or someone doesnt want it to be feasible.

Like i said earlier....if you *fix* it, you can fix my accounts so they produce exactly $0.00 US dollars per month, per account. Okie?

Gerzan of Scylla

Short-Nanoeffect 1 writes (some very stupid things)

To all the "short bus" people how don’t understand anything... READ the following.

Why don't you start by reading the rest of the posts in this thread, then you will understand what people are complaining about.

The limited schematics to 100, as originally intended, is of course correct.

Then why does the schematicbar indicate to enter a number between 1-1000?

The intention of limiting the number to 100, is so that your factory will only run for 4 hours, not 40. Every factory running 40 hours, basically means that every factory in the game will be constantly making updates to the database, which causes lag in the game, as the factory will rarely turn off.

Factories, harvestors, houses, all structures do not update to the database unless the owner is hanging around. This is why in the beginning there was a bug about players needing to stay close to their factories in order to get xp from them. This has been explained by the Developers as the way it works. It doesn't matter how long your factory is running. When you start the factory run, a calculation is made which sets an alarm. That alarm sends you an email when the factory run finishes. However, updates only happen when the factory OWNER is standing within visual range of his factory.

They can be out of the game for almost 2 days and still be lagging the servers. Where as limiting to 100 means that they go to bed.. and 4 hours later their factory stops accessing the database and making entries.

If it is server side (which it is) how does that lag the servers? Lag is shorthand for network latency, which happens when too muchdata is passing between the client and host. Factory calculations happen server side. Clients are only updated when the client's machine can see the factory. Therefore: no network traffic when the user is not logged in = no lag. Moron.

Now you complain about not being able to make finished products in "full" crates. WHO CARES.

We do. Crafters. That should be obvious.

A) hording massive amounts of items, or B) making so much money that you are throwing off the economy for everyone else that is just starting the game, and is wanting to craft.

Your reasoning for A escapes me. Your reasoning for B makes no sense. How can you horde enough money to "throw off the economy" in a game with an infinite monentary supply?

To complain about a fix is sad.

To flame people for voicing their concerns ina forum that Holo setup so that players can voice their concerns is sadder.

Lets realize that we need to be improving the game. Not allowing things that are in the end, a determent.

This "fix" does not improve gameplay, it harms it. It makes crafting tedious, when it is supposed to be fun.

Just look at any master crafter, because of this hack they have been allowed to HORDE the cash in the game, instead of spreading it around. Don’t believe me?

No, I don't. Once again, there is a constant inflow of credits, it is not possible to "Horde" them.

Besides the fact that database entries are UPDATES.. which means that there is an UPDATE every few minutes from EVERY factory that never shuts off. EVER. To shut the factory off after four hours is very smart.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong. You don't have a clue how factories or database updates work.

And...bus.

Not even going to address your pathetic closing "argument".

-I AM WARGHUL

As evidenced by the number of posts here maybe the devs could actually listen to their customers. Looking through the posts it is clear 90% of the people FAVOR keeping the limit where is is. Why on earth would you make such an unpopular change?

Call it a nerf, call it a fix.. I call it a bad move. Leave it alone.

Tethys Lightspeed MD

a fix for something that wasn't boken, and things that are broken still don't get fixed. seriously, who comes up with this stuff?? alfred e neuman? come on, was this such a game breaking thing that it had to be fixed like this?

"...i have altered the game, pray i don't alter it any further!"- Dev Vader to Lando in The Dev's Strike Back!

A limit of 100 for schematics would kill my business. I run an Architectural business with Kebol (who already posted above quite eloquently), and we do runs of 1000 structural modules every couple of days. This is a necessity for running our business. We don't have enough time in our playing schedule to babysit factories.

Not only am I an Architect in your fantasy world, but I'm also a programmer and database administrator in real life. It seems to me that the difference in maintaining the information for a crate of 100 should be the same as for a crate of 1000. They are both one object, with a quantity value that can fit in a 2 byte unsigned integer. So, why not leave the schematic limit at 1000, and change the crate limits to higher numbers. That way, you have less overall objects, but the players are still able to run their businesses. Using your database (for which you guys designed the schema - so it is your own fault if it is slow) and your software which accesses the databases as excuses for making these drastic changes is very lame. Buy more hardware. Increase the amount of servers in your database cluster. We are paying enough money.

If this change goes into effect, I imagine our business will end very quickly. Prices will go up across the board. This change will have a far-reaching (and largely negative) impact on the world economy.

Jekken Tul
Master Architect
Starsider

I made it! Oh dear God, I made it to the end of the messages! I read EVERY one, and survived the experience!

My vote: NO to 100!

Reason: See above.

GRRRRRR!

P.S. It is NOT a bug or exploit to create 1000 item schematics, since the client allows me to type 1000 in, and gives me an error message if I try to enter >= 1001!

Holo,

The biggest reason to NOT change this is because of the number of other identical sub-components that are required for crafters. I only know the Doc/CM line, and a little bit about the Weaponsmith line. In weaponsmith line, it takes anywhere from 2 to 5 identical power handlers to make certain guns. This means that any schematic for the final assembly of the gun will be closer to 15-19, if you count in how many times you need to attempt assembly before getting a "good" schematic. No weaponsmith in their right mind would only want a schematic around for 19 guns. This is insane.

Doctors/combat medics are the same way. Some of our schematics take 3 of certain types of subcomponents, making the absolute maximum of the final product be 32 (assuming perfect assembly on the first try). This is crazy... I go through 32 stims too fast to always be re-making my schematics.

With the way shifts work now, I don't have a bunch of excess material to sit around making a bunch of schematics so that I can make 32 stims for use. That isn't even a FULL CRATE!!!! Full crate is 50!

Please don't do this... 1000 is quite a lot, but 100 is insanely limiting. If the intent is to make people give up crafting, then you're doing it. If its not, how about a more reasonable limit of 500.

Thank you for your time.

as an architect, I do know of one major reason to keep schematics at more than 100...it takes 10 structural modules to make one wall module...I need 15 wall modules for a guild hall (the largest structure.)

Since structural modules have to be removed from the crate still (as of last week), that means that I would not only need to make 2 structural module schematics and do 2 factory runs,(wasting more time and materials), but I still have to hand feed the input hopped for my wall modules...

other than that, I rarely make more than 25 of an item anyway...but those structural mods are a royal pain

If we are forced to use 100 unit schematics, we crafters can do it. The questions that I have are, why make the change at all? What fundamental aspect of the game is ruined by allowing 1000 instead of 100?

There are already several constraints on the manufacture of goods in SWG. For example:

- Limited resource availability.

It took 9 weeks for Dolovite Iron to respawn on our server (Naritus), and the new type was not the old type. Any old schematics left in datapads are useless if they use the old iron.

Stockpiling resources was the answer, except you rebalanced the number of items that can be kept in a house to be 75 per lot, and then you resized the houses. I keep only the best items - even if it has not been on the server for 10 weeks.

- Schematics have almost no sale value

How often are schematics sold on the servers, these days? How many are set up for sale across all of the servers right now? Unlessthe selleruses only current resources (which vanish in 4-7 days, and are not necessarily good quality), no one can buy the schematic unless they happen to have the resources stockpiled.

The only schematics I have ever purchased were ones where I gathered the resources, handed them to a master weaponsmith, and had him sell me the schematics so that I could make the items.That was 3 schematics (scout blaster parts) . . . back in July.

- 100 of one schematic means at most 99 of the derived item

Items that use nested parts(example: crafting station, which can take amicro sensor suite, whichmust take a control module) chew up a lot of resources just to make the prototype.

- Time

Making items is extremely time-intense. From the surveying to get resources, to the collection of resources, to the actual manufacture of the items, there is a huge investment of time. Speaking as a person who averages 40+ hours a week in the game - I cannot see someone who only plays 4 hours a week even bothering with a crafting profession - it just takes too long.

I can only imagine what it would be like if I started played SWG today, instead of back in July. Back then, I was able to sell Stim-As on the open market, because better wasn't available. Today?

So . . . what problem is being solved by fixing the 100/1000 issue? If it is just about making the game act the way that you intended it to, then great, but I would strongly prefer you to do something about the collapsing markets on the servers for all artisan professions.

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The core problem that I see with the game is that the market is limited to the PC population, and that has grown stagnant. For example, once 90% of the players had the clothes that they liked, the tailor markets just collapsed. Once way to fix this is to have NPCs randomly buy items from vendors, and to have NPCS randomly sell items on the Bazaar.

It's an interesting way to sneak rare items/resources into the game - a single incident where an NPC sold a300 unit container of Dolovite Iron would completely revitalize the use of the Bazaar terminals, had it happened six weeks ago on Naritus. Having an NPC come in and buy a new set of clothes every once in a while would save the Tailor profession. It would also give non-master crafters a way to sell items without having to use the practice button . . .

And, besides, who wouldn't keep an e-mail that said that Han Solo bought a power converter from their vendor?

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I am against changing the limit from 1000 to 100. And I am also for restoring the Bazaar maximum sale price to 10000 (as the error message says when you manage to get a price larger than 3000 entered into the terminal). Both look like they were originally coded as "1000" and "10000", and is there really a reason not to have them that way?

Yes techinically every last one of us that ever made a 1000 use schematic.. exploited.. if this is indeed a bug, someone added a 0 at the end of the limit. But when outright asked, the devs and Holo kept silent.. leading us to believe this was not a bug, several people asked is the 1000 use schematic a bug back when the factories all went on the fritz 1 to 2 months ago.. other posts in that thread were replied to, but they refused to comment on that.. well by refused I mean didn't.. like they never saw it

Today they say its a bug, and that its causing data base issues.. If you havent read all the posts, back on page 6 I posted a solution to this problem.. making a schematic for a sub combine.. the actual sub in a schematic for a final.. please go back, and read that post, and lets let the devs know if their customers feel this is an appliciable solution.

Heres a direct URL to my post

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=916&highlight=#M916