Development Cycle Archive

Thread: IC 1-17 Star Wars Galaxies Combat Profession Mix and Match

erroroccured
Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:25 am
#274

The weakness for mix match professions is,


People have already shown there is no real variety in mix match profession. Brawler pretty much stick with the same template that made them uber, this is why there is a new cap on things.


So does mix matching really make the game unique not at all. So many people had the same build of picking up 1 or 2 skill trees in each combat profession to stack the bonuses.


If a fighter chose not to mix match other combat profession to become uber, then they just simply went doc/combat profession.



This game is trying to have its cake and eat it to but i dont think it is working or will work in the future.


You can not have a swordsman have a specific uniqeness to it if you promote the swordsman to become swordsman/tka/fencer/pikeman all hybred into on. People choose their profession because they like that particualr class for whatever reason. I do not want to be a swordsman who has to swing a pike, fight unarmed, then grab a baton to make my swordsman better than any regular master swordsman.


Have any of the elite combat profession have another class to them. There is no way doc/master swordsman should be better than a true combat master swordsman. This is what makes the game fall apart. If someone wants to be a doc/swordsman then fine but they will not be as tough as a master swordsman who decides to only concentrate on his profession.


shamanboy5769
Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:23 pm
#275

all i ask for is this right here


MASTER TKA NEW DAMAGE- reson is this kenetic dmg is usless in pvp now this 80% compsite armor is unstopable i think it is unfair that when we run into a pvp battle i can not do dmg when it took me so long to master this skill. i belive it would only be fair to give us stun dmg ever prof gets stun but tkm ewveryone thinks that we shouldent have it cause we do to much dmg but i say that if ur not tkm that u are pretty much a ranged combat prof witch gives u another advantage called running so really i find that it would only be even to give tkm a new dmg typ. and i know many that agree with me.
Kevie
Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:29 pm
#276

some made a comment about dabblers getting more of a benefit then those who take the time to master one specific profession......


there should be more benefits for mastering professions....... weapon certs (instead of at novice),the most useful specials, many defense mods shouldmoved to the master box of each profession


each profession should be given it's own line of defense, which we have with things such as dodge, counterattack, block, which are very helpful to distinguish certain professions from others


what each profession should then be given is their own special type of attacks, let me elaborate:

rifleman have the cover ability and can snipe people from far away, no other profession can bost this type of attack

pistoleers and fencers with the new dual weild ability should be able to deal damage to more than onetarget at the same time (using the premis of the pistoleer's multi-target pistol shot)

pikeman given an ability to use specials while mounted (if just creature mounts) would make them seem much like the lancers and such they seem to be

comandos given stationary weapons (such as an e-web blaster) could allow them to pummel away and many targets for a lot of damage while standing still and vulnerable


honestly i have no more suggestions for other professions as i have not played them all or if these are even viable options but i hope i've helped in some way


/salute




Oaceen Tunaisea (Ow-seen Two-nay-see), Kettemoor
There is no command, mood, chat type: smuggle
"#*% damnit, no. Caboose; I'm not cold, I don't want a hotdog, and if you
put mustard in my #&$^ing sheets again I'm gonna kill you." - Tucker
-

HythosSWG
Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:28 pm
#277

I do definitely appreciate the current method of skill-distribution (oppose to "skills sprinkled throughout the trees" as with Creature Handler)..


It's more logical in that sense... Take melee for example - We see all different forms of martial arts in Real-Life.


And, in this "real life", we also see MANY fighters each with their own skills - based on their training and experiences. Some people are devistating strikers - and others simply can NOT be touched. It all depends on ones' specific training.


Therefor, I feel to stay true to what actual training is, skill-types should remain within "like-skill trees" as they are (divided by Offensive or Defensive skills and abilities - then perhaps a tree of weapons-skills of the respective types (because training with different weapons takes specific skill as well.)


Logical reasoning should prevail here.

DonovanB
Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:28 am
#278

---


Have any of the elite combat profession have another class to them. There is no way doc/master swordsman should be better than a true combat master swordsman. This is what makes the game fall apart. If someone wants to be a doc/swordsman then fine but they will not be as tough as a master swordsman who decides to only concentrate on his profession.


---


I have to agree with this to some extent.


The cherry pick concept sounds wonderful up front, but does promote character design for pure combat effectiveness, and if a mixed design is more effective- everyone is mixed. The result is that everyone is the same, a very odd outcome for a system intended to promote very different concepts.



In general I have the following suggestions:


1. Make armor part of the class balance. Have some classes avoiding hits in the first place (TKA, Pistols, etc) while wearing little to no armor and others depending upon armor to suck it up (heavy swordsman, Carbine, Commando). One can run the range from all avoid/block without any armor (say TKA) to all armor buthit more often(Commando) andpoints inbetween. This can also result in more types of armor for the crafters to make and a return to use of non-comp armor. This would be a major tie-in to the combat re-balance as current comp armor is the end all be of combat, that would have to change. This seems VERY Star Wars Movie like to me.


2. In the case of mixed professions when armor/avoid conflict (say a TKA/Commando)t- always drop one's ability to avoid down to the max level forarmor being worn. Thus mixing professions of different armor types is not cherry picking as such- but is instead a way to match your style to what's going on at a specific time.


3. Add a delay for switching armor/clothing to prevent exploiting the system. Say the 15 second non-combat delay now used for vehicles.


4. Increase the effect of the Mastery box and allow only one elite/hybrid Mastery per character. Perhaps increase the cost/effect for that box. This would mean that to reach the height of a profession, one would need to pass on the heights of the others.


5. On a somewhat related note- Characters should not depend on Buffs more than they depend upon their skills and stats. Currently the Buffs ARE the character (buffs are at least 2x and often much more than starting stats. This means we're playing the buffs and not the character. Modifiers should not exceed the base in order for the base to matter). Ideally, any buffs should be a percentage and not a flat add so that the stats (selected for the profession) still determine potential. In this way, someone stat'd for Master Swordsman will have the edge on someone stated for a Doc/Swordsman mix.


6. In line with point 5, perhaps Mastery could increase the base HAM values (i.e. the character has now improved his natural stats). This however should not be read as a general increase on top of existing buffs, but a re-balance thereof.


aazatgrabya
Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:21 pm
#279

DonovanB has some great suggestions there which I would also like to emphasise.





1. Make armor part of the class balance...


2. In the case of mixed professions when armor/avoid conflict (say a TKA/Commando)t- always drop one's ability to avoid down to the max level forarmor being worn. Thus mixing professions of different armor types is not cherry picking as such- but is instead a way to match your style to what's going on at a specific time.






A shortfall in the present system is exactly this. The armour available becomes rapidly redundant until you wear Composite. Using a system as that described will force players to choose armour according to your play style and skills gained. This not only provides a greater variety in combat styles but a more considerate approach to spending skill points, not to mention a greater reward for those Armoursmiths out there.






3. Add a delay for switching armor/clothing to prevent exploiting the system. Say the 15 second non-combat delay now used for vehicles.






15 seconds may seem a long time so perhaps a time calculated by the armour's statistics providing you with a Cumbersome value similar in value to weapon speed.






4. Increase the effect of the Mastery box and allow only one elite/hybrid Mastery per character. Perhaps increase the cost/effect for that box. This would mean that to reach the height of a profession, one would need to pass on the heights of the others.






This surely cannot be considerd a bad idea at all. Giving the players an opportunity to enhance their profession into something worth sacrificing skill points and lengthy game time for to become notorious or famouswarriors/artisans/entertainers etc... will allow the player to really feel individual. Perhaps even having special abilities that require skills from other complimentary trees could develop ones individuality even further. Presently there is a real feeling of blending into the crowd a little too well.






5. On a somewhat related note- Characters should not depend on Buffs more than they depend upon their skills and stats. Currently the Buffs ARE the character (buffs are at least 2x and often much more than starting stats. This means we're playing the buffs and not the character. Modifiers should not exceed the base in order for the base to matter). Ideally, any buffs should be a percentage and not a flat add so that the stats (selected for the profession) still determine potential. In this way, someone stat'd for Master Swordsman will have the edge on someone stated for a Doc/Swordsman mix.






Buffs are a slight gripe of mine. I really do not like the present system of medically enhancing someone to super-human ability. Not only that, but it can really negate thevalues found from playing a certain race. Buffs are never going to disappear, I have to accept that, but can we make them less ostentatious, and more subtle? Granting bonuses according to your presently laid out HAM as suggested above is an excellent idea but alsoincluding racial and profession restrictions and bonuses would make the system a more exciting and considerate experience.






DonovanB
Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:23 pm
#280

--

there should be NO REASON WHAT SO EVER that would prevent someone from wearing an armor type that was created for their race.

--



If you re-read the suggestion I think you'll find that there was nothing to prevent anyone from wearing any armor they desired- the suggestion was only that wearing armor would cap a character's defensive ability to avoid (rather than absorb) incoming attacks. And that the style of various professions should be tuned to match with a specific style(s) of armor.


That's a very different thing than what you're reacting to. And it matches nicely with the current concept that a character can fire any weapon they pick up- they just can fire it as effectively as someone with the cert.

Templar1865
Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:08 am
#281

Right now, a major weakness is anyone who chooses Creature Handler as part of their combat mix. CH underwent the combat rebalance back in Nov/Dec, with the expectation that all other professions would be adjusted in a timely manner. Five months later, anyone who uses a pet for combat is hamstrung compared to other combat classes. Since the full rebalance is still several months out, please revert player creatures back to their pre-December combat effectiveness until all professions undergo a rebalance.


Thanks.
Brunerr
Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:51 am
#282



It looks like DonovanB and aazatgrabya have hit the right spot IMHO. This was one of the things that were going thru my mind without being able to synthesise it.


Maybe I will be more extreme regarding the question witch professions will be able to wear armours (read on) with their full benefits (calm down now). First of all, class based or skill based, some things can't just be considered right using this cheap (in this matter) excuse since this game should be a RPG before all. Let's get to it.


As was already stated, damage can be minimised by:

1) void strikes: melee/ranged defence, dodge/block(half)/counterattack

2) damage absorption: melee/ranged mitigation (kind of), toughness (melee), armours

These are the ones I remember right now (muon gold downtime gets worser each time) Defensive balance has always been attained by mixing both of these factors. This means that lightly armoured people move faster (and are hit lesser) than their heavy armoured counterparties who take more hits but have a good deal of damage absorbed.


What happens these days in SWG: those factors aren't mixed but added to each other. What is the result? You get people who can hardly be hit and when the strike is successful a "best level" absorption is possible on top (would have been nice, a ninja in a medieval heavy armour). We even don't talk about any buffs here...


Ok, how can it be fixed IMHO? A suggestion: beside of the actual HAM cost (you regenerate better without armour), keep the existing skill tree based defence bonuses (eventuale spread out the same modifiers across the different brarches of a tree: try to defstack now! :-) but:

1) Put penalties on each armour type regarding "void strikes": each armour would cap the "void strike" defences since this will be compensated by the absorption. If you wear a lighter armour (eventually with armours that can be considered as ideal for a professions), you will close in on the full potential of your "void strikes" skills.

2) Cap the armour absorption to something ... lower as the actual cap (>80% is overkill)

3) Cap the whole content of the "void strikes" defence to ... well ... something lower (actually it is around 60% when you have 120 melee/ranged defence? + the "no-hit" moves bonus 12,5% max?)


A nice way to avoid the so called def-"exploits" would be to use a concept SOE already uses in SWG in the form of “melee/ranged mitigation 1-3”: levels. Drop the plain numbers & implement those levels for all defence modifiers ex. Melee/Ranged defence 1; Melee/Ranged defence 2; …; Melee/Ranged defence 5. Level 5 would be the max you can get (with a lower value behind it than can be reached now). You won't be able to increase it any more but once acquired, you have it for all combat professions where it is applicable. Same for block/counterattack/dodge …


PvP would become more enjoyable IMHO & we would start to see some more original player templates since you won’t need to “stack” to stay competitive. Of course, PvE would probably become tougher but hey … master or not: you are not supposed to solo a rancor lair anyway! Maybe we will grab back to hunting groups with medics & stuff.


PS - off scope:

- Would you like to make the PvP more starwarsy? Make faction armors/clothes mandatory for overt players but make these easier to get

- Secondary HAM attribute buffs should be a % of the their base: the actual buffes make the regen rates insane



Brunerr Hurro, ex-member of the silent majority
RatulSibdian
Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:11 am
#283



Hi,


I'd like to suggest and idea that would:


1. Create uniqueness and diversity amongst all characters


2. Help define roles but still allow players to continually explore new ways of playing


3. Specialize in specific SUBareas of skill building welcome to all types


How?


By using the existing special titles and adding crossover bonuses to them that the individual can choose.


Example:


Player 1 has the title of engineer, he is also working on bio-engineer.


As he attains the abilities to create better bio engineered pets, because of his other engineer title he would get an option that looks like this:


Congratulations your hard workhas unlocked a special ability, please choose one from the following:


Rancor Creation Specialization -Damage +10%


Rancor Creation Specialization -HAMS +10%


Rancor Creation Specialization- Levels +10%


Thank you for you selection, you are no a Rancor Engineer Specialist (or Kimo, GSP, etc.,)


If the devs really wanted to make the game interesting they could add a special race bonus as well on top of it. Maybe wookies get +5% on any of the above. Maybe it specific to one choice. Who knows but it would be really cool to have specialties. Maybe a ranger/smuggler could have choices to add bonuses in their skill related areas: the accumulation of more containers, better camo, increased wilderness bonuses. Find secret treasure stashes..whatever it is it doesn't matter... the ideas are endless! The bonuses dont have to be out of this world, just something that people can be pleased with. I wont even bother mentioning what could be done in the fighting classes, it would be just too exciting and I could fill pages of crazy ideas that everybody would like.


We have a wonderfulchance in this forum to push ideas like this to make the game go outside the box. I'm sure an idea like this one would be easy to get implemented by the devs. They would just have to add a few more abilities in your character box. All people have to do is raise the roof and be heard!


If you like this idea or ideas similar to this one let your voice be heard! If your going to the fan fest let them know the game needs the diversity people are looking for!


Cheers!


-concerned council for the state of the game



aazatgrabya
Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:18 am
#284

Fantastic idea Ratul, I can see some 'balance' issues cropping up there, but with a bit of effort and imagination this would work a treat. Combining the multiple professions like this is a great way to really customise your character without adding the elite, elite professions mentioned elsewhere. Combinations like Political/Squad Leader, Rifle/Ranger, Merchant/Tailor with different capabilities depending on your chosen 'title' would enable you to seperate yourself from the crowd and give us the option to spend our valuable skill points in a more tactical manner.
Ungel
Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:57 am
#285

Rtaul, that is the best idea i have heard.

Is it implementable? who knows, but damn that gets the imagination going.

---

armorsmith - creature handler: make composite plated durni !!!


image designer - ranger, make elder rancors look like baby rancors and watch folksattack it *Surprise!*


artisan - squad leader, schematic for craftable ATV troop carriers...

---

dang it i have to get back to work, thanks for the thought though this made my day



----------------------
Closest starport Tyrena
Closest shuttle Cino (mah town!) vendors located 20m from shuttle
requests/orders email Ungel in game
----------------------
Master Armorsmith, 18 skills done hopefully (as always) 1 to go...
currently selling 74% ubese, 80% composite with stun, 54% chitin.
mottola2u
Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:49 am
#286

people will always try to correct something, no matter what you fix. do not incite the silent majority.


dabbling in fact most emulates the RL.


one that invests in, say defenses, gives up many of the great offensive benefits - i do not think it is proper for hard-core offensive professions to think that they deserve to be on equal footing as more defensive professions without investing in those.



Perhaps we should use the analogy that we are all coaches of a team. a team is comprised of slots that have various skills. we are all limited by say a salary cap. now the question is what slots do you invest in - there is a myriad of theory as to what is best, and what suits your style. In RL sometimes strong defense works - and sometime a strong defense is really a strong offense, again a myriad of styles. Some want to win their conference, some want to win the "show" - some are willing to put hard work into it, and some are willing to put more money into it.



in SWG I prefer to give up a profession because I dislike it rather than it's been nerfed. many people calling for caps on this and that also are only considering their own play style - of course they are not considering the play style of others (the silent majority) and how it may impact them.


SO it's my turn: screw you who call for defense caps when you walk into a cave that I've spent an hour moving through, having the good MOBs aggro you and laying waste to all of them in 1/4 the time it would take me. By the time I'mdone with my one guy, you have looted the 6-10 you've killed and emptied all the magseals. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL, SO SHUT UP.


my style - defense.

my problem - can't lay waste to entire POIs in mere minutes

your style - offense.

your problem - can't readily take on heavy MOBs or PCs


and here's where we meet - to be really good at PvP you need the loot from PvE (and composite).And/or dabble, for our own personal style and perceived level of balance.
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