Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Weekly Rountdable Discussion (Week Ending 1-25-04)
TH,
In response to the new "droid handler tree added to DE" proposals. Please realize that this is something that that DE community has been hotly debating for months, and which we have finally come to somewhat of a concensus on. The reason things are so heated in the DE forum is that you are reopening a can of worms that has taken 2 months to close.
The basic concensus reached by DEs was that something like 65% (Drashk has several posts figuring these percentages) said they didn't want a DE handler tree, but wanted new combat droids to sell. Adding a handler tree to the DE profession is a REALLY bad idea for several reasons.
(1) It gives DEs nothing to sell. Since onlyDEcan use the new droids, this doesnothing for thevast majority of DEs that are BEGGING for new combat droids to sell.
(2) The handler tree encourages players to take up DE just to handle droids. Most DEs are VERY opposed to dabblers grinding DE by sending crappy, cheap grind bots into the market. Most DEs are also apprehensive about the pure effect on the droid market (especially consideringthat any DEcan make his own droids, and every new de can ALSO sell to others).
(3) It is about as unstarwarsy as you can get. C3P0 and R2 didn't have joysticks jutting out of their back and a uber dood following them around controlling them. Droids have AI, and it takes experience to program and make them...not to say "attack" after they are already programmed.
I will also note that these considerations would ALSO apply to a droid handler profession (except for #2, where the "no new sales" would be replaced by "few new sales to the 5% or less of players who become DHs), which I think is one of the reason for so many "no's" in the polls.
After MONTHS of discussing this issue we all came back to having certifications in existing professions. I STILL think certs in all trees is the best solution.
Respectfully, I really think you are going the wrong way with getting community concensus. So far your response has been to say "Drashk's proposal gives a CL 15 droid to a novice and that is unreasonable." I wholeheartedly agree with that, and think you are being WAY to strict in the interpretation.
Why not start here: A person who masters 3 professions should get a cert for a CL20-CL25 droid; a person why masters only one elite profession should get no more than a CL15 droid; novices should be limited to CL10 or less. Now...take Drashk's proposal and rework the numbers from there. What you get is (1) a proposal that requires a substantial skill point investment to get good droids, and (2) DE sales and the ability to use new combat droids (along with other classes).
Why are we abandoning the compromise DEs have spent months reaching, only to push the plan that DEs fought about and strayed from to reach a compromise.
Oh since you are comparing DH's to CH's are the DH's going to be able to camp on lok and tame droideka? Are droideka gonna spawn babies now as well?
We've not had a single red name post in our forum since sometime in July, I believe. There's a serious sense of futility and the feeling that no-one on the dev team plays or cares about entertainers.
I think improving droids and combat and other such things is important for the game. At the same time, I think the simple act of communication can do a world of good for those professions that have not seen much attention and are not likely to see much in the near future.
TH, you need to communicate with everyone, not just the "flavor of the month" professions.
- J
hasibert wrote:
I unterstand it like this:
level 10 combat droids and all other kinds of droids (crafting stations, surgical, storage, ....) for ALL characters
heavy combat droids for the droid handler profession
I understand why they're not adding certifications to let's say crafting professions. As a crafter, you craft and you're not a fighter. If you gain a certification for a strong droid, you get something what a ch (or dh) has,
you should not be able to fight strong creatures as a crafter, unless you take some combat skills. To add heavy combat droid certifications to crafters would be the same as to give them weapon skills. And because of that, this will never happen.
So you DE's can make non-combat droidsand combat droids with level 10 or less for everyone and heavy combat droids for the droid handlers, that's way better than what you have now!
From the standpoint of logic (oh no!) and the SW genre who owned the most droids and deployed them?
If you said Trade Federation you are the winner!
So, my crafter paid 4 million to get the FP for a body guard (AT-ST) and they nerfed it so it doesnt protect me when harvesting anymore.
So, now their probably going to nerf my probot (which is weak) more so it won't ever block for me when DH's come out. And have no doubt, they will come out. Whine, gripe, complain all you want, it makes no difference. IMO< DH overcomes their (devs) need to reprogram the other classes and deal with balancing issues. Quite frankly, I'm surprised we still have vehicles at all < too powerful.
If they want to stay true to the genre combat droids should cost A LOT and be usable by anyone, nuf said.
Let the DE's see what it feels like to need 500k of a resource to run a schematic, like architects.
Fivo Asia
darkmane wrote:
TH--
You screwed the pooch on that one. I know you meant to say something like "because DE's want combat droids more powerful than CL10 andto keep game balance we will be creating the Droid Handler class to use these uber-combat droids". That was ineffective communication, plain and simple.
Now, to respond to the request you made to Drassk for a workable droid certification process, I suggest the following:
Sub CL10 droids: Everyone can use them, non-combat droids are automatically CL1 (A 10k HAM MSE droid that runs from fights is not a game balance altering droid)
For over CL10 droids AND creatures I suggest this:
1) The new droid certifications go into the Squad Leader tree and a Master Squad leader can handle the same level as a Master CH, with the same progressions.
Justification: THese are "Military level" droids, Squad leaders are the most militaristic profession and they are "used" to commanding large groups.
2) For both BE and DE add cerifications that allow them to deal with CL(Max CL of CH or SL/2) creatures and droids respectively. THis occurs with no increase in the number of creatures/droids that they can have out.
Justification: THey deal with these creatures on a daily basis in a controlled environment, this allows them to exercise better control with these beings than an inexperienced person might.
3) This is unrelated to the first two changes and would probably be harder to implement:
If a CL 50 droid is given to a SL (Or whomever has the certification) it works fine, however if it is traded to a DE it's stats adjust downward to CL 25. If it is traded back its stats go up, if it is traded to someone with out any skill, it becomes a CL10 creature.
Justification: DEs and SLs know the strengths and weaknesses of the droids and are able to command them well enough to limit them thus giving them the perception of having more effective statistics in combat.
Droids should be for everybody, every profession, race, creed, sex, geographical location.
The most powerful of combat droids should be available to masters of all combat professions but there should also be some type of combat droid for non combatants to be able to have out for protection.
Thunderheart wrote:
Could you drop a hint when we will see the post about the DROID INVASION, please?Ill be doing it this week. I had to push it off until some of internal discussions were finished. The timetable was changed because the Droid Engineers were very clear in telling me they wanted Droid Engineering and Droid Handling as two seperate professions.
I have nothing but respect for you and all the others who make SWG great. But please take a look at this link. don't let the words of the few spoil it for the rest.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52116&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
Ok, I hate to pester but TH, please can I get some feedback on a few things.
1: CH rare tameables. Currently, there is NO justification on the reason for some of the tameables to be so incredibly rare. About a month now and 123 lairs and not one Bull rancor baby that I am searching for. I often ask myself why I continue to try for a pet with OK stats and an AOE disease (which means little if ANYTHING in combat other than a PvP grief tool). Why should one such as myself (and other CH's) have to send this much time and effort looking for a tameable and come up empty handed?
2: Rancors are horribly underpowered. In theEU,Rancors are supposed to be one of the most feared beasts. Whyis it a Rancor in SWG isnot one of the best pets an MCH can use?In addition, creature CL/stats are totally out of whack, any word on this?
3: New mounts, for non-ch and CH, any idea on this?
isnt this the "Weekly Roundtale Discussion" Thread?
hey TH, how about addressing those of us with other concerns besides what DE's want?
you know. like fixing things that have been FUBAR for a year (sat down lately?) and other actuall game stopping issues.
Thunderheart wrote:
For instance, if a grouping of professions gets "Droid Certifications", then you instantly get a migration of people to that profession to get the combat advantages. The advantage is simply doubling your combat balance. For instance, If Im a Carbineer and I have a droid, I've essentially doubled my combat abilities. So If I group with someone else who has access to high level droids, 2 players = 4, 4 players = 8 and so on.
Combat becomes out of balance and too easy. If that were the case all combat would have to be increased in difficulty. If 4 players suddenly have the same combat ability as 8, you can see how things would spin out of control.
And this wouldn'thappen with the introduction of a Droid Handler profession... how?
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
Could you drop a hint when we will see the post about the DROID INVASION, please?Ill be doing it this week. I had to push it off until some of internal discussions were finished. The timetable was changed because the Droid Engineers were very clear in telling me they wanted Droid Engineering and Droid Handling as two seperate professions.
You better think again. This isn't so cut-and-dried as you make it sound.
For this, I've created a poll on the DE forums (link below, so you can keep track). The question was:
"Do we want to have droid use (of combat droids/modules) in a separate and new 'Droid Handler' profession?"
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52116
Every answer (as of the time I write this) has been "No". It's like 20-0, so far. I think I can speak for many that believe that a new profession is VERY VERY bad idea.
A new profession brings:
- Bugs all its own
- Balance issues, all its own
- A entirely illogical situation, where DEs are unable to use the very droids that they make (how does THAT make sense?!?!)
The larger discussion on this topic is fairly complex and NOT easy. I will say that, in my knowledgable and experienced view of the profession and its players, it does not make sense that we'd not be able to use the droids we make.
Period. End of story.
There HAS to be another way (than creating an entirely new profession).Their argument makes a lot of sense too. A good balance is akin to Bio-Engineers and Creature Handlers; BE's make em and CH's use them.
If you check the results of my poll, the DEs so far have stated that this is NOT what they want.
I repeat: NOT want they want.
Theviewpoint that I see so far is that it makes no sense that we'd be able to construct all of the partsneeded to build a droid but not be able to use any/all droids that we build.
We (as a profession) understand the 'pet/creature problem' very succinctly. We just happen to believe that creating a new DH profession is not the best answer. There must be some other way (such as Drashk's suggested 'certification' system) for this to be accomplished.
Its really two different playstyles. One is crafting and one is combat/exploration. Adding a class of combat droids to the game has to be similar. Combat droids themselves have to stay level 10 or under for the general population otherwise everyone would rush out and get the better pets.
....Not if there were a certification system in place that made sense.
That leaves a wide range of powerful combat droids that needs to be in the game, but to get those droids, players have to spend the time and energy to earn them.
Yes...and they can do this as part of building their combat-related professions, per a working and logical combat-droid certification system. Building a new DH profession means that DEs that build droids will (apparently) not be able to operate them. How does THAT make sense?!?!So what we'll have is a Droid Engineer profession and a Droid Handling profession.
See...this right here says to me that the "strike team" has already decided on what is wants to do (and is GOING to do it, regardless of what the profession actually says it wants).
Is that the case or no?
Will we actually be able to convince you (since we're correct, as a profession) that this is NOT what we want and it is NOT the best solution?
/bow
Respectfully,
When your dealing with combat droids its not just your DE clic it affects. You have to look at the scope of things and realize by not adding another profession your oppening a whole new bag of worms in regards to BE/CH balance....TH stated thats the balance they are going for...A MBE can make level 60 pets they cant use...why should a MDE be any different? Just because you can put the pieces together doesnt mean you know how to opperate the machine to its full extent. If someone wants to make their own pets and use them they have to go Master Bio Engineer and Master Creature Handler.... Droids should be no different especially for anything over the current level restrictions in equevillency.
Lobaca
Thunderheart wrote:
NasrikSnar wrote:
Any word from Lithium on getting your posts to show up in DevTracker again? It really hurts not being able to see them there.
I agree. They are working on it now.
Krovex wrote:
I have nothing but respect for you and all the others who make SWG great. But please take a look at this link. don't let the words of the few spoil it for the rest.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=52116&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
I read the whole thing. I sent a link to the thread and the sentiments expressed to the dev team.
In response, Runsabre will be posting a big overview on the design challenges this afternoon. It's trickier than it seems.
For instance, if a grouping of professions gets "Droid Certifications", then you instantly get a migration of people to that profession to get the combat advantages. The advantage is simply doubling your combat balance. For instance, If Im a Carbineer and I have a droid, I've essentially doubled my combat abilities. So If I group with someone else who has access to high level droids, 2 players = 4, 4 players = 8 and so on.
Combat becomes out of balance and too easy. If that were the case all combat would have to be increased in difficulty. If 4 players suddenly have the same combat ability as 8, you can see how things would spin out of control.
The alternative is to stick put a "droid handling tree" in with Droid engineers. The confusion came in because over the past few weeks, DE's have stated they would prefer to be a crafting profession. In the shakeout, it seems the issue has many angles.
We're going to try and get to the bottom of it this week.
TH, could you at least also consider/present to the devs the option of "Horizontal Skill Trees"?
boceifus2000 wrote:
darkmane wrote:
TH--
You screwed the pooch on that one. I know you meant to say something like "because DE's want combat droids more powerful than CL10 andto keep game balance we will be creating the Droid Handler class to use these uber-combat droids". That was ineffective communication, plain and simple.
Now, to respond to the request you made to Drassk for a workable droid certification process, I suggest the following:
Sub CL10 droids: Everyone can use them, non-combat droids are automatically CL1 (A 10k HAM MSE droid that runs from fights is not a game balance altering droid)
For over CL10 droids AND creatures I suggest this:
1) The new droid certifications go into the Squad Leader tree and a Master Squad leader can handle the same level as a Master CH, with the same progressions.
Justification: THese are "Military level" droids, Squad leaders are the most militaristic profession and they are "used" to commanding large groups.
2) For both BE and DE add cerifications that allow them to deal with CL(Max CL of CH or SL/2) creatures and droids respectively. THis occurs with no increase in the number of creatures/droids that they can have out.
Justification: THey deal with these creatures on a daily basis in a controlled environment, this allows them to exercise better control with these beings than an inexperienced person might.
3) This is unrelated to the first two changes and would probably be harder to implement:
If a CL 50 droid is given to a SL (Or whomever has the certification) it works fine, however if it is traded to a DE it's stats adjust downward to CL 25. If it is traded back its stats go up, if it is traded to someone with out any skill, it becomes a CL10 creature.
Justification: DEs and SLs know the strengths and weaknesses of the droids and are able to command them well enough to limit them thus giving them the perception of having more effective statistics in combat.
Droids should be for everybody, every profession, race, creed, sex, geographical location.
The most powerful of combat droids should be available to masters of all combat professions but there should also be some type of combat droid for non combatants to be able to have out for protection.
As a DE I agree.
As a Gamemaster I understand the need for balance.
As a software tester, I know that sometimes you just have to say "good enough" and ship.
All that aside, my third point (Which I think would be difficult to implement) would allow ANY person to have ANY droid, however the effectivness of the droid would depend on thier ability to command/program it.
I am imagining DEs more as robotic engineers/psychologists (Can't remember the exact term) from Asimov's Robot books.
As *STARWARS*y as it would be, since I'm a Non-combattant player, I don't want them to raise the difficulty of the creatures to make them more challenging for the Rifleman who has a droideka out. I'm outclassed already, and I don't want to have to pay a rifleman to go check my harvesters for me.
I hope we get some form of certification system rather than a DH profession and I was just suggesting one.
Please for the love of god fix the old classes before adding more new content...New content is good but people would much rather see old stuff fixed first..bugs that have been ingame for like 5 months that you guys dont consider game breaking so you dont do anything? Most bug fixes could be fixed as a hotfix i mean come on..the droids on BH getting slower as you go up in the investigation line instead of faster like they are suppose to? Easy fix.
The small bugs may not be game breaking but they are leading a lot of people to get tired of the game and stop playing. So please fix old material before adding new, because with new material comes even more bugs, so you guys keep getting swamped with new bug reports on all the new material that everyone forgets about the old...So please just fix the old stuff first.