Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Feedback 6-23-04: Core Combat Change
Bannon9k
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:14 pm
#14
I for one like this idea. Jedi or not, this puts a turn in t PvP for the better. No more will a defense stacker be able to get off scott free. Now, a swordsman can get that one lucky hit in with their exceptional PH and actually do some damage. Assuming no ones wearing armor =P.
But this is definately a good change, assuming it works correctly.
In my opinion, no one should EVER be able to hit more than 90% of the time, nor should anyone be able to NOT be hit more than 90% of the time.
Dasyra
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:27 pm
#15
This probably doesn't effect combat medics because the accuracy is on the medicine. So for every game tic expect a jedi to get hit with disease or poison as needed + all their friends near them. Please make sure this hit or miss applies to poison and disease throwing.
Thanks.
Bennyboy4308
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:32 pm
#16
How much does having a high accuracy modifyer help then? For example I spend quite alot of skillpoints to get a nice accuracy bonus from BH. Will this give me more of an advantage or is it more of wasted skill points now?
Kade_Deveron
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:38 pm
#17
*Cheer!*
GLad to see this getting addressed. It doesnt resolve issues of uber composite armor/uber buffs, but its definitely a move in the right direction.
DarthMaul73
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:39 pm
#18
I just fought a TKM/Fencer/Pistoleer 1040 with Novice Force Healing on TC2 today. His defensive skills include
+125 dodge
+100 Def KD
+100 Def Posture Change (Down)
and CoB. He didn't use center much, was mostly spamming specials against me ad nauseum.
I couldn't win. He did far more damage to me then I did to him.
I have a polearm saber max damage 374. I'm a Master Saber, Master Healer. I am a Jedi Knight (rank 0).
I tried both saber throws and slashes , about 50 times combined. Not once did his posture change, or did he get knocked down.
We called it off because I was never gonna run out of Force, and he had about 600 BF
Right now, Jedi saber damage is waaay too low.
Or, perhaps the melee stackers defenses are too high for us.
Whichever. We're no better off fighting them with our new sabers, then our old ones, bottom line.
Message Edited by DarthMaul73 on 06-23-2004 07:45 PM
annelid0
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:42 pm
#19
How do weapon range mods factor into this, if at all?
As it stands now a master pikeman with +150 accuracy using an LVA (roughly -30 accuracy) still misses more than a master swordsman with +120 accuracy using a 2-handed curved sword (roughly +10 accuracy).
Will a pikeman in this situation miss even more now due to the higher skill mod, despite the penalty imposed by an inaccurate weapon?
As it stands now a master pikeman with +150 accuracy using an LVA (roughly -30 accuracy) still misses more than a master swordsman with +120 accuracy using a 2-handed curved sword (roughly +10 accuracy).
Will a pikeman in this situation miss even more now due to the higher skill mod, despite the penalty imposed by an inaccurate weapon?
Ragnaat
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:43 pm
#20
not sure if you're looking for non-jedi feedback on this as well, but from playing all day I have to say non-jedi PvE accuracy is all but broken.
I already /bugged a few things and sent the QA that asked for it some info, but anecdotes and some data from today.
[TC1] Pistoleer 0021 DX2 +20@0m, +26@26m..
Standing still in combat against a sleemo (hoodlem i think)
distance between 11m and melee
I missed 6 times and was dodeged against once before I hit the one blow that killed the punk
[TC1] Pistoleer 0021 Republic blaster +0@60m (or 64)
Prone in combat against an aakuan
distance - max range with a final mod of ~11
I missed the first 4 attemps to healthShot2
[TC1] Fencer 4423 w/Gaffi -2@all and vibroblade +9@all
Fighting lvl 25 imp mission lairs (30k+ham)
Standing still in melee range
Against 4 diff lairs missed 15+ times each lair, in once case 4 misses in a row, and many cases 2 in a row
[TCBria2] TK Master - Bare Handed
Standing still auto attacking skreeg warriors on yavin (what an odd "time" to have mirrored, btw)
First skreeg (7600ish ham) - (lost beginning of combat spam) At Least: 11misses, 2blocks, 1counters, 2 dodges
2nd skreeg [different combat session] - 48hits, 16 misses, 3 counters, 1 dodge, 0 blocks
I have to say, numbers aside, from a "feeling" standpoint it "feels" like I'm constantly missing where I never really noticed it having much of an impact on any of my chars before. But when you miss 3 or 5 times in a row and your HAMs are beat up when you used to just kill some meatlump with the first hit, or finding some way to miss a lair, or in the case of TKM going from almost never missing to not dealing damage on like 30% of your swings and against silly random creatures that you log in next to that I'm sure don't have "stacked" templates - its really, really bad.
I already /bugged a few things and sent the QA that asked for it some info, but anecdotes and some data from today.
[TC1] Pistoleer 0021 DX2 +20@0m, +26@26m..
Standing still in combat against a sleemo (hoodlem i think)
distance between 11m and melee
I missed 6 times and was dodeged against once before I hit the one blow that killed the punk
[TC1] Pistoleer 0021 Republic blaster +0@60m (or 64)
Prone in combat against an aakuan
distance - max range with a final mod of ~11
I missed the first 4 attemps to healthShot2
[TC1] Fencer 4423 w/Gaffi -2@all and vibroblade +9@all
Fighting lvl 25 imp mission lairs (30k+ham)
Standing still in melee range
Against 4 diff lairs missed 15+ times each lair, in once case 4 misses in a row, and many cases 2 in a row
[TCBria2] TK Master - Bare Handed
Standing still auto attacking skreeg warriors on yavin (what an odd "time" to have mirrored, btw)
First skreeg (7600ish ham) - (lost beginning of combat spam) At Least: 11misses, 2blocks, 1counters, 2 dodges
2nd skreeg [different combat session] - 48hits, 16 misses, 3 counters, 1 dodge, 0 blocks
I have to say, numbers aside, from a "feeling" standpoint it "feels" like I'm constantly missing where I never really noticed it having much of an impact on any of my chars before. But when you miss 3 or 5 times in a row and your HAMs are beat up when you used to just kill some meatlump with the first hit, or finding some way to miss a lair, or in the case of TKM going from almost never missing to not dealing damage on like 30% of your swings and against silly random creatures that you log in next to that I'm sure don't have "stacked" templates - its really, really bad.
Cakins7005
Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:09 pm
#21
I wish the devs would not do this before the combat balance. The combat balance IS the patch were we are prepared to thoroughly test something like this.Also, this allows for extremely riduculous situations to go through if this goes live. A prone Master Rifleman/Master Marksman with +25 in accuracytapes and +40% accuracy food firing at a target at 64 m with a DXR-6 rifle with a+100 accuracy mod on it could miss a standing still target. ANovice Marksman with 0 other combat skills couldpotentially hit a Master Fencer with center of being on while riding a speeder at 100miles perhour, 64 m away.
Arconis_Runicblade
Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:28 pm
#22
it actually quite easy to understand why they did this for those who aren't seeing it...
this combat change was going to go in as part of the combat rebalance anyway and as Jedi are already "Balanced" compared to other classes they needed to push this small change in to ensure that jedi could contend until the combat rebalance comes in. This way even though other classes will have higher defense and attack mods till the combat rebalance, the Jedi will be able to hit them regardless.
BenderTheGreat
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:21 pm
#23
Thunderheart wrote:
I was talking with one of the developers about this and he added, "The best written description I can think of on the change to combat could be described as the basic “to hit” combat works like this"
- The Attacker rolls a “to hit” number, the defender rolls a “to defend” roll.
- These numbers get compared, if the attacker is higher, they hit, if the defender is higher, they miss.
The problem is that through multiple stacking of defense skills mods, tapes, foods, abilities, etc. The defender could get into a state where their Minimum roll number, would be higher than the Maximum roll possible by an attacker, and this makes them impossible to hit. Conversely, the attacker through this same method could get into a state where the Minimum attack roll was higher than the Maximum defense roll, making it so they never missed.
The change drops the Minimum roll (for both defense and to hit) so that you can never have a minimum number so high that you get into an “always hits” or “always be missed” state.
Was trying to make some sense of this, and thought of this possible analogy. Please let me know if this is accurate 
I'm looking at this in D&D sort of terms, where a target has such a good defensive rating (armor class) that even with all your mods (plusses 'to hit') you could never achieve the number required 'to hit', even if you get the maximum from the random number generator (20 on a 20-sided die).
Is what has been done similar to the D&D system of "A roll of 20 always hits, regardless of modifiers. And a roll of1 always misses, regardless of modifiers"? Or am I just totally off-base, hehe.
Message Edited by BenderTheGreat on 06-23-2004 07:05 PM
sirsri
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:23 pm
#24
might want to include a variant of one of the many, many log parsing utilities from EQ.
Hero_DarkJedi
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:36 pm
#25
cheserna wrote:
(feel free to delete this post because it's not actual testing, it's my opinion)
"why can't you guys bite the bullet and just increase jedi accuracy instead of changing the whole dynamic of combat for one class you didn't give enough accuracy to...
<snip>
(as I said... this is my feedback... feel free to delete it if you feel it's not constructive)
Because you don't "band-aid" something that is *broke* if you can first fix what is broken.
I guess maybe you didn't read TH's 2nd post ... cause the DEV's are right (OMG) that you should never be in a "Always Hits" or "Always Miss" state.
Thinks of D&D and d20 rules. 20 always hits, and 1 always miss's and that is a tried and true method that got "broke" by stacking.
If I stack properly I will miss "only" on 1 ... and I will get hit only when my oppenent gets 20. That's fair so.
After that is fixed they can look at other things ... like the Jedi Accuracy.