Development Cycle Archive

Thread: IC 1-3: Combat Roles; Carbineer

Spekter
Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:15 pm
#14

"What defines the Carbineer role in combat?"

AzSteve does.



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...I don't want to sell you deathsticks...I want to go home and rethink my life...
Trystan1969
Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:39 pm
#15

I would like the comment on the less accurancy point.


Less accuracy is bad. If you can't hit the target, then there could be no affects applied to the target.


My view of a carbine is a fast firing weapon. Possibly faster than a pistol but not as accurate. Speed difference is due to more time spent aiming a pistol than a carbine. BUT that does not work in this game situation since if you miss, you would apply any state changes. So, slower speed for more accurancy would be my opinion. Think of using burst shots as your normal attack, 3 shots go off, but only 1 hits.


In any fire fight, lowering posture only gives the target increased accurancy and reduces your accurancy. So, what's the point in lowering the posture of the target? Only time I've seen this to be beneficial is if someone is using a flamethrower on the target or there is a melee class attacking the target. So, make sure there are AOE posture ups included as well to give control over whether they're up or down.
emo-kor
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:02 pm
#16

Carbineer should be the AOE damage, AOE debuff, AOE posture change / knockdownprofession. They should be faster then they are now and should have a speed cap of 1.5. Pistol should have a speed cap of 1. Rifle a speed cap of 2. This would put carbineer in the middle. Carbine should be Med speed, Med Range, Good acc, Med Damage.


Carbineer should be a crowd controller in pvp giveing the enemy debuffs, action delays, knocking them down, changeing their posture, adding bleeds and doing medium damage (inbetween pistol and rifle) to the whole group.


1v1 in pvp a carbineer should be even matched agenst a rifleman or a pistoleer.


as for defences a carbineer should be much more resistent to intemidation and knockdown/posture changes. More so then a pistoleer. I would suggest a total of +60 knockdown defence, +40 posture change defence, +40 intimidation defence, +40 Ranged defence. Also counter attack should be reworked so it really does a counterattackandnot taking one of your combat rounds.


and finally... please, please, please, please, please give us a dizy shot!

turelsunstrider
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:14 pm
#17


What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?


They should provide much needed assult power in a PvP situation, a way of pushing the enemy back, crowd control.


What basic combat elements should they possess?


Hold out in fights, yet also be able to push someone back.


What offensive abilities?


KDs, area of effect attacks, yet also they should be able to in one on one combat deal alot of damage. For example a Carbineer is great at spreading the damage around, but if he focuses it on a target he should be able to deal good amount of damage.


What defensive abilities?


Being in the thick of it, they need stuff almost comparable to melee fighters, yet not as good. Alot of times they will find themselves in close combat, and will need to be able to withdraw and live to fight from a distance. As a time of frontline troop they would have skills in some hand-to-hand when needed(I dont mean actually fightins hand-to-hand, but defending against it)


What unique abilities?


Anything that has to do with making his targets do what he wants by firing.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?


Carbineers should not be dependent on groups(no combat class should be) but should be a great use to one. Able to control targets for a group, yet also if fighting a single opponent, provide some good base damage.


How could/should they interact with other professions?


Ibelieve that there should be more Adv Carbines, I believe actually the every combat profession should get more than one special weapon, it allows for more planning and tactics on what to use.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?


They can hold themselves for a few moments in close combat, but they would need to get out of that fast and let a melee profession or pistoleer take care of that. Also Carbineers of helpless against Snipers, if their crowd control tactics cannot reach the target it ofcourse does nothing to them, but on the same note, if a sniper was caught off guard by a carbineer, he would be done for.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?


Probably the most well rounded for large scale attacks imo. Alot of carbineers would be able to control the battle with support from other professions ofcourse. Thats the key, or should be, a commander doesn't first look for victory, but in controling the battle, and then he can win it.




Turel Sunstrider
Darkarbiter1
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:27 pm
#18

Sorry was a bit brief. I too see the carbineer in the starwars universe as basicaly a sub machine gunner. Basicaly laying down covering fire while others advance using an automatic weapon. However I would like to see some of the historical carbineer incorporated.


Hisoticaly carbineers were mounted troops (on horseback and later paratroopers) who used carbines and sabers as there primary weapons (basicaly shortned rifles that were light wieght and easy to manipulate) To this end i think it would be very interesting if a hybrid elite class could be created using carbiner and lancer to make a calveryman type of profesion (lancer too was a type of calvery that used long lances, no surprise there, and rode hard against fortified positions while the enemy was reloading) that is reliant on mounts and the only profession that can use specials while mounted. (this is kinda of a pet project and ill leave it at that, however some feed back from the players and even a dev would be great )


As for the rest of carbineer i agree with the comunity that carbs should be the only profession to have ranged AOE. We are the ones with automatic weapons who "spray" Also carbs should be the shoot and scoot type. We should get the accuracy bonus while moving much sooner and by master there should be little to no penalty for moving. In keeping with the supporting/covering fire we need ablities that allow us to decrease enemy movment and or acuracy (dont nessarily need posture or KD just something that slows run/walk speed (perhaps built into legshot) and something that decreases acuracy (new ablity mabye like covering fire) Also maybe some new animations for full atuo.Carbs should be fast with low damage but most attacks should be AOE. IMHO the only non aoe attack we should get is criple shot for those soloers who want a single attack.


As for defence bonus i think that were prety well off with just some reist to posture change and KD. We arent ment to slug it out at close range with our fists as well as a gun like pistoleers and we shouldnt get the bonus riflemen get when prone from cover after all to kill a sniper you have to find him first. We should however make it hard for our enemies to hit us with specials that decrease there chance to hit, like covering/suppressing fire


just my 2 cr


ideas
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:43 pm
#19






Trystan1969 wrote:

I would like the comment on the less accurancy point.


Less accuracy is bad. If you can't hit the target, then there could be no affects applied to the target.


My view of a carbine is a fast firing weapon. Possibly faster than a pistol but not as accurate. Speed difference is due to more time spent aiming a pistol than a carbine. BUT that does not work in this game situation since if you miss, you would apply any state changes. So, slower speed for more accurancy would be my opinion. Think of using burst shots as your normal attack, 3 shots go off, but only 1 hits.


In any fire fight, lowering posture only gives the target increased accurancy and reduces your accurancy. So, what's the point in lowering the posture of the target? Only time I've seen this to be beneficial is if someone is using a flamethrower on the target or there is a melee class attacking the target. So, make sure there are AOE posture ups included as well to give control over whether they're up or down.





Good points.Their specials should have a reasonable chance of success. I should have said low accuracy for normal attacks, or maybe that really just translates into low damage in the sense that most of your basic shots go "wild'.Carbineers shouldn't just sit still and shoot for damage -- that's a rifleman's job.


Also, lowering enemy posture is not great against another carbineer or a rifleman, but it is IMMENSELY useful when your opponents are melee fighters who want to run up and smack you. That would in fact be the purpose of posture changes: Keep that melee guy on the ground and shoot him from afar!


If you can force a rifleman to his feet it would also be useful to reduce his accuracy. Finally, if your enemies have a pistoleer who is kiting your melee allies (i.e. your friends can't catch the pistoleer and he is pinging them as he runs), it is very useful for you to drop the pistoleer to his knees. Yes his accuracy goes up, but then your melee buddies catch him and kill him.


I agree that the Carbineer should be able to force people up (riflemen) or down (brawlers). He should be the master of opponent postures, not the best in damage or speed.







So, let me get this straight: To advance my character, I have to give up my current abilities?

Flurry: Ikeya Ibye (Master Droid Engineer, Master Artisan, Master Merchant)

IKEYA Grand Mall - Naboo, Moenia - Waypoint 5000 -4000



tao42
Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:10 pm
#20





What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?


Crowd Control, Crowd Control, and Crowd Control.


What basic combat elements should they possess?


AOE attacks, AOE debuffs and posturedown attacks. And more options fordifferentdamage types on their guns (cold and kinetic especially).


What offensive abilities?


The carbiner should have a wide variety of attacks to chose from. Such as:


An AOE attack with a strong chance ofintimidation (slowing opponents) and moderate damage.


An AOE attack with a good chance of posturedown (to slow melee rushes) and light to moderate damage.


An AOE attack that gives a bleed to a random pool.


An AOE straight damage attack. The damage should be reasonable, say a x3 multiple, it should be less powerful on a sigle target than thehighest damagepistol attack (about half as powerful), and much less than the best rifleman attack, but should do more damage than either of those if spread out over four to five opponents.


A single target multipool attack, similar to fan shot in that it hits the target several times in a row.


A single target knockdown, on a timer of course.


A single target posture down attack that is effective almost everytime (say 90%).


And a single target and AOE random debuff attack. It should be like just pouring on laserfire, with a chance to blind, dizzy, stun, intimidate, posturedown etc. The AOE should do little damage, but have a good chance of giving everything in it's cone a debuff (albeit a random one). The single target should do moderate damage and have a very strong chance of giving the target one or two or even three debuffs in one shot.


What defensive abilities?


Moderate ranged and melee defense.


What unique abilities?


The AOE and multipool/multidebuff attacks listed above.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?


Crowd control =P


How could/should they interact with other professions?


The carbineer should slow the enemy down, giving the rifleman time to take out key back-line opponents (doctors, combat medics, CHs, etc) and giving the pistoleers time to take out the melee. And letting the commandos reak havoc on everything.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?


A carbineer should have little chance of soloing a high level creature, but should have a better chance than any other class at taking out four or five mid level creatures.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?


Crowd control, AOE attacks, Debuffs, posturedown, etc.


Kaffis
Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:29 pm
#21

Turelsunstrider brings up a good point. I mentioned "breaking an enemy charge" several times, with posture, knockdown, or slow to walking effects in mind. However, forcing a retreat is also another option for this -- a shot that would cause the character to slowly backstep in the face of our own charge. After all, "charge shot" is modeled after Han Solo's brash headlong pursuit against those stormtroopers in the Death Star, is it not? The animations look awfully similar (aside from the silly fist in the air, at least), and evoke similar effects (a hasty, intimidation-driven retreat in the movies vs. a knockdown which could be argued is due to panic in the face of a headlong charge)...
Xieflow
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:47 pm
#22

AzSteve could not have been more dead on with what he stated.

It seems balanced for both PvE and PvP combat (what some of you want for Carbineer would leave the Carbineer very dead while soloing, or going PvE).

You guys might wanna think about making AzSteve your Carbineer correspondent, he's got the most dead-on idea of what a Carbineer should be.
FireWarrior
Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:02 am
#23



What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?


The ability to provide cover for others and to handle most situation adequetly, but not perfectly.


What basic combat elements should they possess?


Exactly what the description says: Medium Damage, Medium Range, Medium HAM, AoE and State changes.


What offensive abilities?


The ability to alter states and make enemies more vulnerable with an alternative method of doing damage solo.


What defensive abilities?


Suppresion fire. The ability to the keep an enemy pinned down so they can't move very easily.


What unique abilities?


Suppresion fire, the ability to attack and handle crowds.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?


They should be able to inflict state changes to help in killing the enemy or keep them pinned down, perventing them from attacking others in the group.


How could/should they interact with other professions?


In a supporting manner.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?


Same as above. Support friendly forces and provide backup. The profession best able to handle itself without backup, due to their ability to lay down fire both close-up and at range.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?


Average grunts? Capable of handling themselves in most situation, if need be.

Quandry
Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:25 am
#24

What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?


What basic combat elements should they possess?



We are the infantryman. We are the front line in the "big push". We are use to seeing an army in front of us and charging on anyway. We hold the fort and defend the flag. I see us as the "Gi Joe" of swg heh. We should be able to unleash large amounts of fire down field quickly. Keep enemies pinned down wile our reinforcements arrive...like snipers taking position or a commando getting ready to blow a bunker.


What offensive abilities?



We should be unparralleled at the "run and gun" tactic. Stat wise our aim wile moving should be doubled imo. We should have area effects that bring fear in our enemies...we should be the only class with area effects. We should be able to SLOW and knock down single and groups of enemies. We should be able to intimidate our foes. I would like to see a "but attack" where wen enemies get close we can knock em down and either back off or finish them...the burst shot we get at 0 range is good but the single target one should KD within mele range. We should have some better skill with grenades like a soldier...Give us C22's and aim bonuses...and let us throw them faster and farther...these go largely unused except if you need combat exp. We also should get a small burst run bonus to reflect our high physicalconditioning. We should be able to spot enemie fortifications easyer like a chance to spot a sniper on a hill etc.


What defensive abilities?



We are use to being shot at so we should have good defence against all ranged attacks. better than other classes because we are the front line. We should have lots of dodge and counter attack. We should be able to take cover...not like a rifleman by any means but sompthing. Our defence is a strong offence from our area effects and volum of shots fired.


What unique abilities?



Area effects should be unq to carbineers. We have the only weapon that should be able to shoot sevral rounds a "turn" this should be unq to us. Ranged intimidate fits us like a glove. Knockdowns are also the bread and butter of our trade. Area bleedsstuns and wounds fit us like a glove. We are also lacking in a "rally" and "last ditch" move. Loyalty is high in the front lines wen things get tight we should be able to buckle down and give it our all.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?



We should draw enemy fire because we are shooting at them the most. And hold back the opposition. Prety much what i said in the first question. Maby a small boost wen grouped with another carbineer for the group...We are use to tough living conditions so we should have high resist against status effects. We as soldiers should also have a movement bonus and be able to use some specials on mounts like the cavlery. I would like to see 5 carbineers storm a base on a mount laying waste to the defences...breaking their lines and flushint them out...wile the snipers pick them off and the commandos take out the heavy implacements.


How could/should they interact with other professions?



Give the others some cover to get in position much like i have already said. And back up the mele professions. The only combat profession that dosent quite fit in is a pistoleer....they shouldent have much of a use in group combat they are the one on one specialest and our opposit. And bounty hunters...they are loners and should not quite fit in a group dynamic.



What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?


We need big guns to take out extreamly fortified positions like commandos. I see a ideal combat group (20) being 2 commandos 3 riflemen 1 medic 1 doctor 1 combat medic4 assorted mele professions 1 creature handler 1 squad leader and 6 carbineers.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?



We are traned soldiers. A faction bonus would be nice. Maby the ability to "man" a turret or requestion more faction troops. Detecting and deactivating mines seems right. The ability to rally our comrads to arms by our presence perhaps...but not like a squad leader.





_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Carbineer for Life
Weapons||Armor
Li'lith of Tarquinas
Alderaan Memorial Hospital
Loot Vendor (-6851 -4108) Galia Naboo


turelsunstrider
Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:55 am
#25






Xieflow wrote:
AzSteve could not have been more dead on with what he stated.

It seems balanced for both PvE and PvP combat (what some of you want for Carbineer would leave the Carbineer very dead while soloing, or going PvE).

You guys might wanna think about making AzSteve your Carbineer correspondent, he's got the most dead-on idea of what a Carbineer should be.





Agreed! I see the carbineers biggest advantage in controling his enemy. Now this doesn't just mean a group of enemy or PCs, NPCs or creatures. I think it could be applied one on one with a creature, by forcing it to take cover, kneel, pushing it back in the direction you want it to go, and generally keeping it away from you.


I personally think that most ranged combat professions are not doing so good against creatures unless in a group. Right now I can get some good hits off, but most creatures are faster than me and will catch up to me, once in my face its hard to get away. Giving us these abilities keeps us out or these situations.


I think that we should have high damage attacks for focus on a single target, along with some control attacks and muti-target attacks. A SMGer can cover an area fairly good and keep the enemy down, but if he focus his attack on a target it would be deadly.



Turel Sunstrider
PolanderRM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:07 am
#26

What defines the Carbineer role in combat?

The standard ranged fighting class.


What basic combat elements should they possess?

High rate of fire, Medium/High Damage, Medium Range,Low HAM, AoE and State changes.


What offensive abilities?

Carbineer should have the fastest rate of fire. "Mimicking say the M-16 from real life" Have the ability to give cover fire and or keep enemies at bay. Also a melee attack with either the but of the gun or a bayonett. Should have some powerfull and damage attacks that burst off several rounds.


What defensive abilities?

The counter attack ability is great. Since Carnineer is technicaly medium range I feel they should have more mellee defenses. Also need area of affect crowd control such as area posture change and area delays.


What unique abilities?

Fast fire area of affect attacks and high damage burst shots should be Carbineers signature.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

More of front line go in first type. In a group be able to charge in under heavy fire and survive. Surpress the enemy allowing rifleman and heavy weapons to attack safely from the rear.


How could/should they interact with other professions?

Carbineers should be able to overwealm and defeat any single enemy from any class if using good tactics.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

Should be a desired squad team member.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Carbineers should be feared by the enemy and sought after by a squad. Thier ability to put down more fire then any other class should be thier distinction.


I have to say that the current build of Carbineer is decent. If all of the current Carbineer specials worked as described and had lower ham cost, this class would be great and just what I am looking for.



Master Polander - Rifleman - Combat Medic - Scylla Server
May Your Mind Bar Beware
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