Development Cycle Archive

In a galaxy far, far away, it is a time of civil war. The Empire has taken control over the galaxy and attempted to build the ultimate battle station to enforce the will of the Emperor. The rebellion destroyed the fearsome Death Star and this galactic conflict is at its peak.

In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and they all depend on each other for success. Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.

In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.

Some basic balance considerations are:

* Ranged and Melee Professions

In SWG, a key thing to consider about each profession and its role in combat is that there are many ranged combat classes and many melee combat classes. Each ranged combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “ranged” abilities that helps distinguish them from other ranged combat professions, and likewise, each melee combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “tanking” or melee abilities that helps distinguish them from other melee professions.

* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities

There are two basic set of combat skills any profession should have. The first are Redundant Abilities. These are abilities that either most or all combat professions posses, in other words, “everyman combat skills”. The second set of combat skills a profession should posses are Unique Abilities. Unique abilities are the abilities that give a profession its unique feel in combat. In other words, it defines the profession and its role in combat.

* Game Space

Another basic concept to keep in mind when thinking about combat professions and their role in combat is Game Space. The next big consideration for assessing combat abilities is where the combat takes place. There are indoor spaces and outdoors spaces. Indoor spaces would be dungeons, bases and the like and outdoor spaces would be wilderness and/or city spaces.

* PvP and PvE

In SWG, players can choose between PvE and PvP playstyles and even shift back and forth to play in elements of both. PvE is “Player versus Environment” and basically deals with fighting computer controlled enemies in combat. PvP is “Player versus Player” and is real players fighting real players and tends to be very tricky because anytime something in game is at stake (like faction equipment, etc), it is important to keep things fair and balanced, but also fun.

* Profession Lifespan

What is the profession’s role in its novice state and how should the skill progress over the course of a player’s time investment in the profession? At all times any given profession should have a distinct role and value in combat. As a player progresses from Novice to Master, the profession should reflect something special about the profession and also be fun to play.

Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:

What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?

What basic combat elements should they possess?

What offensive abilities?

What defensive abilities?

What unique abilities?

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

How could/should they interact with other professions?

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Request For Comments:

The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.

*What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?

Based on the in-game and the in-movie descriptions, the Carbine appears to be the average trooper weapon- the assault gun or SMG of the Star Wars universe. The Carbineer is not a casual combatant, as might be said of a Pistoleer, and is certainly not a one-shot one-kill person like a Rifleman. He is your base of fire in a firefight.

*What basic combat elements should they possess?

The Assault Rifle is supposed to provide a base of fire that supports and can be supplemented by your heavy weapons guys (Commandos) and snipers (Riflemen). The Carbineer should be able to generate a large volume of fire, with AoE effects second only to the Heavy Weapons line. Only the highest-level specials should be able to one-shot a typical PC, but a Carbineer should be able to do significant damage to multiple targets simulataneously.

*What offensive abilities?

Crowd Control. Pinning. Slowing the enemy down. Basically, AoE specials that will either do group KDs or group Slows on the targets.

*What defensive abilities?

Suppression Fire. Covering fire that reduces the enemy's chance to hit. Basically, specials that will reduce the ranged to hit modifier on enemies within the AoE.

*What unique abilities?

Honestly, I beleive that the only fire combat AoE attacks should be held through Carbines or Heavy Weapons. The SWG Pistol should be able to shoot VERY fast, but at single targets and with low damage per hit. The SWG rifle should deliver devastating damage on a single hit, but with a slow rate of fire. The SWG carbine should be faster than a rifle, slower than a pistol, and do damage somewhere between the two with a high emphasis on AoE.

Also, things I would love to see for ALL professions would be some more thought about profession-specific gear and weapons. For example, we have the Elite Carbine as something only a Carbineer uses. I think there should be more types of Carbineer-specific Carbines, just as there should be more Pistoleer-specific pistols etc. But there should also be a set of Carbineer-specific armor with a couple of skill mods built in.

*Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

A group with some Carbineers should be able to pin down a crowd of mobs while the snipers and heavy weapons guys pour fire on specific individuals. A group with three Carbineers, a Rifleman and a Heavy Weapons guy should be able to take on a set of 10 white-con mobs, and in the end have the Carbineers drop about five or sixof them, the heavy weapons guy two or three and the rifleman two or three.

*How could/should they interact with other professions? What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

I would like to see more done with Squad Leaders in terms of commands that effect specific types of combatants. For example, a command to extend the ideal range for a rifleman, a command to grant a pin or KD bonus for the Carbineers of the group, etc.

*What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Not sure there are any unique abilities specific to the GCW for Carbineers, but I think they need to be seen as the much-needed foot soldier for both sides. An army made up only of heavy weapons guys or snipers should not be able to survive. An army of pistoleers might survive, but almsot die of old age trying to inflict enough damage to kill the enemy. An army of many types should rule.

Alyc Voleslayer of Kauri

Ranger, Carbineer, Bounty Hunter, Scout, Medic

What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?

The Carbineer should be the master of enemy posture manipulation. Her job should be to put the enemy where you want them to be (generally meaning "on the ground").

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Ranged combat of course. Their specials should center around manipulating enemy posture changes.

What offensive abilities?

Their ranged capability should probably be moderate speed, low accuracy, and high damage. Their burst shots are designed as a suppression fire tactic, but anyone caught in the barrage will be severely hurt.

What defensive abilities?

Some ranged defense, and some anti-posture change abilities. Perhaps they are resistant to knockdown on the grounds that a wild carbine shot from your back isalmost as scary as a controlled one from your belly.

What unique abilities?

Causing posture changes. With suppression fire they should be able to force enemy brawlers to "cover" (or to their knees), delaying their ability to close with their chosen targets. They may also be able to force enemy marksmen down so that their own allied brawlers can close. Also, with burst shots they may be able to force an opponent into a defensive mode where they cannot attack as effectively. In all, the Carbineer chooses which enemies get to fight and which ones must wait their turn. These specials should all have a fast recovery time so that if the carbineer changes targets, the prior victim is mobile almost as soon as the new one is down.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Choosing which enemies can charge, flee, dodge, and attack is a very powerful advantage. The Carbineers may not score many hits in the battle, but offers some control over the enemy group. If the enemy's whole plan hinged on their one TKA closing distance, the Carbineer can prevent that.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

They are support fighters, mainly. They may be able to keep one opponent from fighting, but it would probably take a long time for a Carbineer to win such a duel. In a massive fight, the Carbineer occupies the most dangerous opponents while his friends pick off the rest. A Carbineer has a good chance of defeating aPistoleer or melee character, but would be very vulnerable to a Rifleman or Combat Medic.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

A Carbineer's low accuracy makes her dependent upon other fighters to deal out most of the damage. Their occasional hits may be quite effective, but they will not last long without help.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Ranged posture changers, able to stop enemies from getting close or taking effective postures.

Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?

Low accuracy should be their weakness. While they may get a fairly powerful shot now and then, they cannot expect to keep up with other combatants in overall damage per time. Against another type of ranged fighter, the Carbineer will probably lose.

Did the Devs forget the "Combat Roles: Smuggler" thread in all this?

Everything AzSteve said

HOO AH! That nailed it!

However the i hope the skills he talked about also apply to the Independant Carbineer, how ever a Carbineer shold be able to pin all their enemies and win the battle.

And i think the major thing i would add would be Ham bar costs. i hate the carbineer motto, grrrrr!

but for what ever reason im still gonna go carbineer, why you ask? be i trust in you, the developers of this fine gaming experience. its kinda funny i mastered marksman and carbines was my last choice to complete lol. i hated carbines inthe begining, but hearing the sounds of that sweet Laser Carbine...well that hooked me.

i didnt know a carbineer was like a machine gun toting bad ass! sweet!

I like to add alittle part here. Overall combat should have their damage bonuses lowered so doing nonspecial damage means something. And buffs should be reduced. Doing 5.5x more damage with a 1.5x delay is not good. Specials should ge 50-100% more than normal shoots. And should do a "special". Currently its doctor buffs and specials or die and have 0 chance. And HAM cost of guns is not right. Specials should use mind only, and mind shouldn´t be incappable. Just an extra 2 cents

There are a few changes that would be most welcome. First the novice carbinner needs a better weapon, because the elite carbine is not as good as laser or acid one, available for marksman. Second he needs to spend less Ham. Third, the carbinner should have some chances of facing other classes,including in pvp, because now thespecials don't work.Changing postures isn't workingmost of the times.

This weapons should inflict more damage, since only special that seems to work on carbinner, in PVE,is the one that knocks down a creature for about 3 secs.

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AzSteve wrote:

*What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?

Based on the in-game and the in-movie descriptions, the Carbine appears to be the average trooper weapon- the assault gun or SMG of the Star Wars universe. The Carbineer is not a casual combatant, as might be said of a Pistoleer, and is certainly not a one-shot one-kill person like a Rifleman. He is your base of fire in a firefight.

*What basic combat elements should they possess?

The Assault Rifle is supposed to provide a base of fire that supports and can be supplemented by your heavy weapons guys (Commandos) and snipers (Riflemen). The Carbineer should be able to generate a large volume of fire, with AoE effects second only to the Heavy Weapons line. Only the highest-level specials should be able to one-shot a typical PC, but a Carbineer should be able to do significant damage to multiple targets simulataneously.

*What offensive abilities?

Crowd Control. Pinning. Slowing the enemy down. Basically, AoE specials that will either do group KDs or group Slows on the targets.

*What defensive abilities?

Suppression Fire. Covering fire that reduces the enemy's chance to hit. Basically, specials that will reduce the ranged to hit modifier on enemies within the AoE.

*What unique abilities?

Honestly, I beleive that the only fire combat AoE attacks should be held through Carbines or Heavy Weapons. The SWG Pistol should be able to shoot VERY fast, but at single targets and with low damage per hit. The SWG rifle should deliver devastating damage on a single hit, but with a slow rate of fire. The SWG carbine should be faster than a rifle, slower than a pistol, and do damage somewhere between the two with a high emphasis on AoE.

Also, things I would love to see for ALL professions would be some more thought about profession-specific gear and weapons. For example, we have the Elite Carbine as something only a Carbineer uses. I think there should be more types of Carbineer-specific Carbines, just as there should be more Pistoleer-specific pistols etc. But there should also be a set of Carbineer-specific armor with a couple of skill mods built in.

*Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

A group with some Carbineers should be able to pin down a crowd of mobs while the snipers and heavy weapons guys pour fire on specific individuals. A group with three Carbineers, a Rifleman and a Heavy Weapons guy should be able to take on a set of 10 white-con mobs, and in the end have the Carbineers drop about five or sixof them, the heavy weapons guy two or three and the rifleman two or three.

*How could/should they interact with other professions? What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

I would like to see more done with Squad Leaders in terms of commands that effect specific types of combatants. For example, a command to extend the ideal range for a rifleman, a command to grant a pin or KD bonus for the Carbineers of the group, etc.

*What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Not sure there are any unique abilities specific to the GCW for Carbineers, but I think they need to be seen as the much-needed foot soldier for both sides. An army made up only of heavy weapons guys or snipers should not be able to survive. An army of pistoleers might survive, but almsot die of old age trying to inflict enough damage to kill the enemy. An army of many types should rule.

Alyc Voleslayer of Kauri

Ranger, Carbineer, Bounty Hunter, Scout, Medic

---

Pretty much sums up my opinion about the carbineer.

Dogg

AzSteve get the frickin gold star,

i can't think of anything to add that isn't redundant to his post.

*What defines the Carbineer role in combat?*

The carbineer should be the foundation of any force of dedicated combatants. It reflects a trained soldier. A mostly non-combatant should be prone to picking up a pistol for its ease of use and learning (meaning, it should be the easiest complement to non-combative professions when they decide they want to fight -- this could be reflected in having the powerful certifications lower in the skill tree for pistols, making it the weapon of choice if you've only got a few points to spend), and rifles should be the realm of either wilderness characters (such as rangers, reflecting its use as a hunting weapon) and snipers.


*What basic combat elements should they possess?*

Carbineers should hinge on two philosophies. Supporting a group, and being targetted toward fighting *against* groups. This means that they may not necessarily excel at single-target damage (where riflemen and commandos would be expected to shine), but could be expected to provide provide a solid groundwork of debuffs and target control in single target or small group situations, while their group targetting focus would propel them into the basis for damage against groups.


*What offensive abilities?*

The carbine in the galaxies world is an automatic weapon that may lack somewhat in precision. As such, it is ideal for launching hails of fire in a lightfight. This translates to AoE attacks in-game, and should be the carbineers' forte. If you're fighting a single target, a rifleman will do more damage, and more damage over time. If you're fighting multiple weak targets one at a time, the quick target selection and fire rate of the pistoleer should be your choice. But if you're fighting a group all at once, the carbineer must be your go-to guy. His somewhat reduced damage (compared to a rifleman) per target should be made up for by firing at 3 or more targets at once in those situations, allowing the carbineer to do the most damage to a group of targets, along with some commando weapons such as the flamethrower. However, the carbineer has an advantage over the commando's superior damage, in that he has a wider array of weapons, and thus damage types, available to him. This means we need more than just energy, acid, and heat. We need either a stun or a cold, as well as a kinetic (did you know that a carbineer cannot provide anything of use against some of the witches on dathomir, due to the utter lack of kinetic options? Give us a slug-throwing kinetic carbine!).


*What defensive abilities?*

A carbineer's defense should be of the offensive variety, as assault troopers. Their passive modifiers should be designed to keep them standing (d vs. knockdown), firing (d vs. intimidate), and ranged defense to cope with the hail of fire the auto-responses from their cone attacks invariably provoke. They should be very vulnerable to flanking melees (who would come in from outside the carbineer's cone, and exploit their very low melee defenses), but should be sufficiently able to keep melees they are attacking at bay (to allow them viability in PvE combat).

Active defensive abilities are primarily what a carbineer should be providing a group when his AoE attacks are not appropriate. This could be in groups with friendlies around (like guards in cities), or merely situations in which only one or two targets exist. In such instances, carbineers need to be able to do two things: keep targets at bay (whether by slowing them, frequently forcing them to kneeling, or knockdowns), and reduce a target's threat at range by debuffs such as blind or suppressing fire that slows the speed of the target's actions.


*What unique abilities?*

AoE suppression fire that slows the target's ability to act by forcing them to excercise more caution. They and commandos should have a near monopoly on AoE attacks, with perhaps one slow AoE given to pistoleers, and a few AoEs for one of the melee professions. Riflemen should not have AoE available to them, they're the aimers. Carbineers should have the unique AoE shot to break a charge, probably via forcing them to kneeling with a delay.


*Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?*

Should be either providing debuffs or area damage.


*How could/should they interact with other professions?*

Provide the basis for damage against mid-to-large groups due to the high overall efficiency of AoE damage shots. Break charges, keep the threat of melee at bay in their line of fire. Suppress enemy fire.


*What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?*

Over extended fights, they'll get whittled away by ranged fire and need medical attention, their "keep at bay" shots will not be foolproof, and will let a melee through periodically at which point they'll get destroyed and need medical support, they'll rely on commandos for additional AE antipersonnell support provided the targets aren't highly fire resistant, rely on commandos for heavy weapons support via the rocket launcher for vehicles, rely on pistoleers and smugglers's ability to change targets quickly (due to very fast weapons) to cover the carbineer's flanks, sniper support to target medical types or special threats like commandos quickly, melees to charge a postured or knocked down group and take advantage of their bonuses for kneeling and prone targets, melees to flank enemy carbineers.


*What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?*

Carbineers should be the building block of any trained, focused fighting force, complemented by others to fill niche roles. Stormtroopers were primarily carbineers, for instance. A small group of carbineers should steamroll even a larger group without carbineers, though they'll take a few casualties from focused fire.

How can we give a real evaluation when half of this profession doesnt work?

ie. specials do not all work like charge shot 2, HAM cost seems excessive by your own admission,elite weapons do not seem to be what they should be etc

I think first order of business would be to get everything working then evaluate what fits into the role we think carbineer should be. Who knows if those things were fixed we might be closer or mopre balanceced then is realized minus a few minor tweaks.

Otherwise I think the first post had it pretty close.

Azsteve hit the nail on the head thats for sure.

For offensive abilities I think it would be cool to have a melee attack where you hit the enemy (5m or less) with the butt of your gun. It should be slow but do high damage and stun the enemy.

Also each profession should be able to wear different armors. Carbineers, being the front line soldiers, should be able to wear the heaviest armors, and rifleman wear light armor since they are supposed to be fast, as out of sight as possible, and long range so they are less likely to take hits. They are the main soldiers, so actually make them that and not just say it.

What defines theCarbineerrole in combat?

The Carbineer is the standard assault troop. His role is tomanipulate the enemy unit disposition -- pin them down, keep them busy, let his allies pick off whom they choose.

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Ranged offense and defense, a bit of area-effect, and a bunch of movement-inhibiting and posture-changing specials.

What offensive abilities?

Carbineers use automatic weapons, low in accuracy but with area-effect potential. Their specials should affect other peoples' ability to move and keep the postures they prefer.

What defensive abilities?

Moderate defenses against ranged attacks, and perhaps some resistance or immunity to posture issues -- a carbineer flat on his back is almost as dangerous as one standing. They should also have the best abilities (special defensive attacks) to keep the melee characters away.

What unique abilities?

Ranged posture changes. Carbineers should be able to force melee fighters to their knees (keeping them away), stop pistoleers from running around, and hail fire near riflemen to make them run. They should have intimidating specials that just force a person away or prevent them from moving. A few AoE attacks should divert damage over a large number of opponents.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Carbineers have crowd control. They keep enemy brawlers back, force enemy shooters to run, or just plaster some slow but steady damage to multiple opponents.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

ACarbineer's strength is against crowds. One on one they probably won't hold out toolong --they can slow down the a brawler, but probably not stop one. Basically, they delay heavy fighting and deliver small steady damage around the room. They are particularly vulnerable to Riflemen who can snipe them from far away and care little for hails of fire forcing them to their bellies.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

The Carbineer needs other people to do the precision shots, heavy damage, and tanking. People need the Carbineer to keep the brawlers away and to harass problem enemies.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

Standard troops. These guys *are* the stormtroopers and soldiers of the world.

Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?

Carbineers deliver low damage compared to others. While they can keep others busy with posture changes and delaying tactics, they probably cannot finish the fight alone.