Development Cycle Archive
Thread: SWG Changes Part 3: GCW Occupation System
Hylidex wrote:
Ruh wrote:
I don't mean to come off harsh with this, but if you are not a combatant, dont join the war. I cant remember all of the changes but isnt there the civilian status you can go to, where you wont have to worry about rebel or imperials "ganking" you since you wont get set "overt" (or PvE Combatant I believe) to the npcs.
But my main response to your complain is...if you cant fight in the war, don't join it.
Hmmm. There are two messages that are clear in this thread:
1. "This is war. Pick a side or opt out."--Gordon Walton
2. "If you are not a combatant, don't join the war."
Put together, this means there is really no place left for primary crafters in the game. Most of the game content is becoming more and more exclusive to people who have joined a faction. Without faction alignment, you lose out on the majority of game content.
Currently most crafting professions require considerably more SP investment than most combat professions. For example, the actual cost of being a bio-engineer is 135 SP with no vendor. Wanting a machine-type vendor takes 24 more SP. (While a character builder may show BE as requiring 121 SP, it is impossible at present to be a fully practicing MBE without at least Exploration IV). By comparison, a master pistoleer requires 92 SP.
In current practice, combat-stacked professions are far, far more powerful than a typical crafter. Since the occupation forces are geared to take on the combat-stacked players, typical crafters get killed on a regular basis. While sliced armor and weapons may help a crafter survive such an attack, they also increase the probability of being scanned in the first place. Up until now, it has been only rebel crafters. Now it looks as if it will be both factions.
Honestly, I like the changes that are coming about. However, at some point it will be necessary to look at crafters' roles in the game, as they are steadily being squeezed out of more and more content. The real result of this will be more and more crafters turning to combat professions instead.
This affects all of us. If there are no weaponsmiths, then there will be only looted weapons. If there are no merchants, then there will be only the bazaar.
I'm sure there are many viable solutions to this issue. I just don't believe "if you want to be a crafter, don't join the war" is one of them, especially in light of Mr. Walton's statement.
Jeez people, we are not eliminating a Civilian/Neutral/Crafting lifestyle. But the GCW will affect the environment.
When we add things to one aspect of the game or another, we are not "squeezing" out everyone else. Opting-out to me means notengaging in the GCW combat. I sincerely doubt everyone will leave the crafts because combat and the GCW gets more interesting.
Gordon Walton
Sony Online Entertainment
Well said Gordon. I'm sick to death of random groups coming forward after every change saying how they have been left out. Or they are being discriminated against.
Wait! I'm a Master Pistoleer. But I'm not making as much money as Crafters do! ZOMG!!!... Something needs to be done! Crafters get all the money! What are you guys going to do about this because I"m sick and tired of them having all the credits while we as PvPers have to sit here and just fight eachother. Dangit!
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Ko-aIri wrote:
Mr. Hanna,
Since you're monitoring this thread at the moment, I was wondering if possibly you could comment on this item related to what you just posted:
Back before Publish 9, Jedi had a limited, random ability to avoid a crackdown scan based on how advanced they were. Once they hit Padawan in the old system, a scan was basically guaranteed to be avoided with an automatic mind trick.
Jedi avoiding the scan, part 1
Jedi avoiding the scan, part 2
Those screenshots are my Jedi, then an Initiate, doing the auto-mind trick. It was one of the coolest things for immersion that happened in all my gaming experience.
Since publish 9, Jedi lost this ability. With the advent of these new GCW changes, there has never been a more compelling time to ask for this ability to return.
Perhaps either a Jedi could automatically do it (like the old system) based on how many skill points are invested in Jedi skills (i.e. a % chance to avoid a scan)... OR the useless Master Force Powers skill "Jedi Mind Trick" could be modified to be a shield or reactionary ability that would enable a Jedi to avoid the scans.
This would be immersive, true to the movies, and a way for Jedi to stay clandestine while traveling.
I thank you for your time and I eagerly await any comment you have. Thank you!
We are looking into this.
Why does this look like a glaring contradiction?
SmugglinZane wrote:
1.The Alliance controlling some of these planets and cities is extremely wrong. I would favor a system where Imperial patrols lessen and Rebel raids increase. Any planet that so overtly acted in opposition to the Empire was usually subject to orbital bombardment by Star Destroyers or another garrison of Stormtroopers.
2. Planetery authorities will fine or attack as appropriate. I once again read this as the neutral players will once again be left out since the only reason NPCs attack is if the player is of the opposing faction, or in this case the non supported faction. Now it appeards that not only are you writing us out of PvP entirely, but you're even making the non joinable factions have interaction that we won't be able to be a part of.
I know this is a rough outline of what you plan to do. Unfortunately you keep taking these things in a direction that writes out an entire portion of the player base from the game.
In other words, I appreciate and congratulate you on working on the content of the game, but you need to start thinking of all the players while you're doing it.
Gordon's comment was about those people who are not in a faction. If you aren't in a faction you won't be attacked from a scan.
Yogol wrote:
SOETyrant wrote:
Jeez people, we are not eliminating a Civilian/Neutral/Crafting lifestyle. But the GCW will affect the environment.
Yes you are. You are forcing people to PvEagainst scanners. And don't say "then don't carry sliced stuff", because that is impossible, sliced stufff is up to 30% better. so, yes, you ARE forcing people to fight or die.
And there is no escape, not evenfor people "on leave" (which is by far the most reidiculous term I ever heard, BTW, why not just call it covert ???)
I believe it is ment to be a PvE booby prize for taking control of the planet through base control means. At this point, the planet is already 'controlled' and this just becomes a fun way to switch out the guards. I suppose they could just insta spawn/despawn the guards, but it sounds more fun this way IMO.
SaleusCorwen wrote:
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Telakyte wrote:
Calandryll you and every other person it seems still just glances over the topic I raised without addressing it.
BASICALLY you're telling me as a Special Forces member I watch while NPCs get ganked by someone scanned and made combatant. AKA cities are really not worth patrolling at all.
The message is = PVPers get out of town and go to a PVP base for your fun.
That's fine and I suppose I could understand it, but really...these kind of "watch and laugh" scenarios of troops watching idley while their city's forces are attacked is a bit absurd.
Actually we addressed this in the TEF and first GCW threads. We don't want players to be forced into PvP situations if they don't want to. PvP players will have a very large affect on the GCW (remember, PvP bases count a LOT higher than PvE bases) but they won't be able to attack players who want to play in a GCW and be a part of a Star Wars experience but do not wish to be attacked by other players.
The issue he brought up Calandryll is this..
Situation..
Rebels own Naboo..
City A has Rebel patrols
Imperials take control of Naboo..
City A still has the rebel patrols..
Imperials come to wipe out City A's Rebel Patrols.. How can a Rebel defend the city which is still in essence a rebel strong hold?
in this situation, since there is much at stake with it.. any in this situation either needs to be overt to do so, or should become overt (fully PvPable) when attempting to wipe out a faction aligned city strong hold..
its not a fact of being forced into PvP, bases are one thing.. cities are completely different.. how can someone defend a cities patrol?
Yogol wrote:
SOETyrant wrote:
Jeez people, we are not eliminating a Civilian/Neutral/Crafting lifestyle. But the GCW will affect the environment.
Yes you are. You are forcing people to PvEagainst scanners. And don't say "then don't carry sliced stuff", because that is impossible, sliced stufff is up to 30% better. so, yes, you ARE forcing people to fight or die.
And there is no escape, not evenfor people "on leave" (which is by far the most reidiculous term I ever heard, BTW, why not just call it covert ???)
If you are caring sliced stuff your a combatant. (cant slice crafting tools or resources)
If your a combatant you might get scaned by patrols.
If you get scaned you loose some faction of the side that scaned you and you get fined.
If your a jedi and you get scaned then you get the smack layed down on you. (dont see why jedi would have anything thats sliced)
If you are nutral then you might get scaned and attacked by RSF or COR-SEC agents that happen to be sided with who ever is in control at the time. You would be a combatant and thing of it as getting attacked by any other mob.
Heres another thought try to avoind scans, or run if your bein scaned. If you run you only get a fine and faction point reduction.
Novock wrote:
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Telakyte wrote:
Calandryll you and every other person it seems still just glances over the topic I raised without addressing it.
BASICALLY you're telling me as a Special Forces member I watch while NPCs get ganked by someone scanned and made combatant. AKA cities are really not worth patrolling at all.
The message is = PVPers get out of town and go to a PVP base for your fun.
That's fine and I suppose I could understand it, but really...these kind of "watch and laugh" scenarios of troops watching idley while their city's forces are attacked is a bit absurd.
Actually we addressed this in the TEF and first GCW threads. We don't want players to be forced into PvP situations if they don't want to. PvP players will have a very large affect on the GCW (remember, PvP bases count a LOT higher than PvE bases) but they won't be able to attack players who want to play in a GCW and be a part of a Star Wars experience but do not wish to be attacked by other players.
Well these will be interesting days ahead. Major NPC cities will become FP farming zones as a PC operative will not be able to defend it from a non-pvp combatant.
Rebel Jedi will run around freely as Dark jedi will be hunted down by all NPCs. Hmm I wonder who's going to have the advantage then. You are trying to defend your city PvP base as an imperial whena Rebel force filled with Light Jedi raid the base. You loose you the losse the base... why? because your Jedi got stuck at a starport scan and had to wipe out an entire platoon of NPCs and didn't get there in time.
These are interesting changes but as it is now Jedi are the main PvP combatants and you guys have just put weights on the shoes of the main imperial combatants (dark Jedi) and gave Nike's to the main rebel combatants (light Jedi).
Now the claim for this reason is that the Emperor had no reason to have any additional dark Jedi in the imperial ranks. thats true however there were no light Jedi running around either as a matter of fact the light Jedi that were a live were all HIDING. So what does it truly accomplish to force Dark Jedi to Hide and not force Light Jedi too? In a system that will be rewarded through PvP combat I fail to see how this is not going to be a huge imbalance. dark jedi will have to be running around constantly engaing NPC so that they can gain back imperial faction for every time they get stopped by imperials and have to clear them all out. It sounds like we are about to have now 4 factions in the game. neutral, Rebel, IMperial and Dark Jedi. I truly believe this will be very difficult on the imperials who let us remind those with contuity issues that the Empire should have the advantage not rebels in this time period.
Anyway Cal please explain how or why this doesn't bring asn imblanace to the combat system?
/agree 100%
QFE!!!!!
- Armorsmith only makes armor that includes star ship
- Weaponsmith only makes Weapons that includes star ships
- Architect makes structures, harvesters, furnature, and star ship frames
- Droid engineer builds the droid componantslike the programing and such the droid armor is from armorsmith and so on with weapons and such.
- Ship Wright makes the drive systems power supplies for all vehicles and ships etc.
But that is an Idea for makeing the interdependance and I know I skiped a lot of prof but I just whant to get the point out there.
Mainly everything is up in the air right now and if you are truly worried about the updates go onto TC.
Arialias wrote:
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Got a couple more answers from the Dev. Team:
Why are Imperial forces attacking Dark Jedi?
The Empire has a campaign against all Jedi. The soldiers of the Empire have no knowledge of what differences there are between Dark & Light Jedi. There is nothing to indicate that the Emperor and Vader want Dark Jedi around.
What is the reasoning for allowing high ranking faction members to avoid scans?
High ranking officers aren’t going to be scanned by their own army, but they will be scanned by the opposing army. This isn’t anything new. We haven’t touched the code or the percentages at all. The only difference is that now, Rebel officers are protected from Rebel scans.
Hmm wait just a second. I am a Dark Jedi I have been one for well over a year now. We have always wanted there to be more of a differance between Dark and Light Jedi. And now you are doing that and the FRS also did it. But here is the problem. It is all one sided to beging a light jedi.
A Ranked Light jedi can heal at 5 sec intervals. Where as a Dark Jedi of the same rank takes longer than normal. We get no bonuses to our saber and only marginal upgrades to force powers. But seeing as how Force Powers are so borked no one bothers using them. Now Dark jedi have to worry about traveling to any planet. And Light jedi can travel freely in Rebel controller areas. I dont know about you but when I check out my bio it says Imperial. Not only that but I am am officer in the Imperial service and have been so for over a year. Now you telling me that all that faction I gained to increase my rank does nothing for me at all. I am a Sith lord then and is vader worried that I am vying for his spot as the second in command? That the FRS does nothing for me at all being on the dark side.
Can you please tell me again why I am on the dark side and not a light jedi? Because not only are we serverly outnumbered as it is now. You just gave a few thousand jedi another reason to go to the light side.
QFE!!!
Agree with you 100% total BS.
First from what I have read only three planets will matter in the GCW. What about Talus, Rori, and Lok. From what I've seen these planets are pretty involved I mean look at all the bases they have on them. I can understand not controlling the cities, but there still needs to be bonuses for those of us who live and fight on such planets for our faction. Otherwise the GCW is still rather small and unimportant in a way.
Rebel scans. Glad to see Rebels doing something but...
Why is the Rebellion harassing people? Ok they can come and say all nice "Please Sir/Ma'am may I see your weapon?" and then "Oh looks like your weapon is modifed. Shame on you for carrying special weapons!". That is so stupid it's funny. Since when does the Rebellion go around saying "Oh you should only carry normal weapons. Afterall we don't want to overpower the Empire...". Bad, Bad, BAD! Rebels are doing whatever it takes to win and there's no way they should do this.
Now I'm very open for rebels on the lookout for Imperials. Cause they should be. But harassing and being all goody goody like is the Empire's job. Do you understand that by having Rebels police people that they will seem just as oppressive? You kill the little difference between the two sides this way, which is really bad, cause one is evil the other good. Like I say Rebels should scan for Imperial supporters, but anything else doesn't make sense. The Rebellion is suppose to be nicer and more open. They want every person they can get. It's even a bit strange they would harass Imperials cause they want them to join them and would be nicer don't you think?
Please remember the whole point of this game is Star Wars. If you make the two factions too similar you ruin the name of Star Wars cause the Rebellion and Empire are very very different. I dunno how will the Empire still be oppressive if the Rebels do all the same things they do? You kind of throw the whole good vs. evil thing down the drain.
Plus your putting to waste the whole Imperial Crackdown.
Ok third and last. It is not fair that Dark Jedi be harassed by everyone. Plus why would troops fire on thier own men? Say some Nova Troopers go after a Dark Jedi. Now he is a jedi true. But he's a Colonel and they know it from scanning him with whatever it is. Do you think they would still kill him? Somebody who has done nothing but kill Rebels. Kind of stupid. The Emperor was against Jedi of all kinds. However he did allow others to join him, if they were loyal. And all Dark Jedi and Sith kill each other anyway, cause they are power maniacs. I mean how many Sith apprentices probably killed their master? Being on the Dark Side basically means everyone for himself. However the Empire was about eliminating the goodie goodie Jedi. In fact the Emperor actually wanted to rebuild the Sith to where there would be all Sith. Yes he knew that this was dangerous, but I mean look Vader killed him so that just proves it.
I can't see the Empire punishing it's own soldiers be them Jedi or not. Do you know that Lord Hethrir the guy right by Palpatine in the retreat is a Dark Jedi. Clearly the Emperor does not kill all Dark Jedi.
Perhaps this brings up a good point. Perhaps Jedi of any kind don't belong in the GCW cause it does not make a whole lot of sense! Jedi should be fighting their own secret war anyway. If you made a new system for Jedi you would solve a lot of problems. You keep trying to treat them as a normal profession open to all parts of the game then you guys are going to create a great deal of headaches in the future for yourselves.
It's good to see changes, but are you thinking through them enough?
I'm afraid if you go through with this the Empire won't be the Evil Empire it is and further detract people from staying with it. Why would I stay in stupid that just kills thier own men, but really treats nobody else different then the Rebels do. Kind of a bummer to me...
Message Edited by TK-132 on 02-08-2005 03:58 PM
Ko-aIri wrote:
Mr. Hanna,
Since you're monitoring this thread at the moment, I was wondering if possibly you could comment on this item related to what you just posted:
Back before Publish 9, Jedi had a limited, random ability to avoid a crackdown scan based on how advanced they were. Once they hit Padawan in the old system, a scan was basically guaranteed to be avoided with an automatic mind trick.
Jedi avoiding the scan, part 1
Jedi avoiding the scan, part 2
Those screenshots are my Jedi, then an Initiate, doing the auto-mind trick. It was one of the coolest things for immersion that happened in all my gaming experience.
Since publish 9, Jedi lost this ability. With the advent of these new GCW changes, there has never been a more compelling time to ask for this ability to return.
Perhaps either a Jedi could automatically do it (like the old system) based on how many skill points are invested in Jedi skills (i.e. a % chance to avoid a scan)... OR the useless Master Force Powers skill "Jedi Mind Trick" could be modified to be a shield or reactionary ability that would enable a Jedi to avoid the scans.
This would be immersive, true to the movies, and a way for Jedi to stay clandestine while traveling.
I thank you for your time and I eagerly await any comment you have. Thank you!