Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-17 Star Wars Galaxies Combat Profession Mix and Match
spoiledbrat
Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:58 am
#235
As I was playing with my Master TKA Char, and doing some PvP, I noticed a few things:
Master vs Master fights, the pvp the way it is now is a good start, if you learn the weaknesses of a specific Combat profession and exploit the weakness you can easily win (with exploit I dont mean using bugs as an advantage!).
But Balance in fighting power shoudlnt be the goal. If I look at the skill points a bounty hunter needs to master his profession and the describtion of the profession, a bounty hunter should be one of the most powerful combat professions in the game, same as Commandos. I say this as a Master TKA.
Mastering two combat professions should bring a player, strengthwise in pvp and pve, on the level of a Bounty hunter, equivalent to the skillpoints a M bounty hunter needs.
Rufkin
Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:26 am
#236
First off. Make sure the Master Abilities work. Especially when you spend as many points as BH.
The Master box in MANY proffs is lacking anything worthwhile. Smugglers i.e. need some skills in that box. They have no weapon bonuses, and the Master box would be a good place to hand out some+25 pistol stats.
I don't want to see a switch up like with CH. We don't need you to move around what is already in a proff, it needs to be fixed first.
Please consider looking at the ability a master recieves, compared to the abiliites of the lower trees. The Master boxes should contain better skills than the trees. So when I'm a master pistoleer, I should have a shot better than stopping shot. When I'm a Master BH I should get higher level BH missions, as well as Ranged Mitigation. As a Master Commando I should get a significant speed increase to throwing grenades.
Last thing I'd like to say is the Wookie race is completey lacking when it comes to PvP. They are supposed to be the tough race, instead they are the weakest. Fix the race's defenses, give us some low levels of wookie armor that can have special protections. Last, make wookie clothing that can carry as many skill enhancements as the humanoid clothing.
CraftAddict
Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:51 am
#237
At risk to flames, but pure skill point investment shouldn't matter in determining how powerful a profession is. Case in point: BH shouldn't be all that powerful when compared to most combat templates simply because of skill point investment. same with commando. Just because they have to master some novice boxes/professions doesn't make you automaticly powerful. Master novices come a dime a dozen, they are easy to obtain even for casual players. Not to mention these types of elite professions are hybrids not pure combat. Some people have the mistaken perception that BH's should be the every man's jedi substitue and/or more powerful than other elite combat professions. Any and all master elite (combat) professions should about equal in combat, only difference being combat/play style.
I don't know how the ranged professions can be make significantly different until the cap on 64m is removed or lower caps given to each ranged professions based on type and a it takes a bit longer to close on someone firing from max range, otherwise there is no point except from a pure DPS standpoint. Rifleman are preferred right now because of the long delay times on their weapons (neverminding speed mods) which means higher chunks of damage on a finite pool of damage. It doesn't matter that a pistol could have a higher stated DPS if the damage pool is finite. Given enough the more delay the more damage is increased, because delay isnt factored in that first shot making longer delays more desirable because the actual dps of those weapons is higher than a weapon with the same stated DPS with a very fast delay.
Case in point, hypothetical encounter:
Both have the same DPS of 100 points per second (100 DPS)no speed mods
Both firing at different targets with a 2000 damage pool.
Pistol 1.0 delay Rifle 10.0 delay
Time(seconds) Pistol damage Rifle damage
1 100 1000
2 100
3 100
4 100
5 100
6 100
7 100
8 100
9 100
0 100 1000 target dead
1 100
2 100
3 100
4 100
5 100
6 100
7 100
8 100
9 100
0 100 Target dead
The smaller the damage pool or the larger the delay, the more difference there is in actual DPS from stated DPS of the weapon. As you can see, the rifle finished it's target 10 seconds before the pistol did. Thats becasue the first shot has no delay. Factor the delay into the first shot and the problem removes itself.
I don't know how the ranged professions can be make significantly different until the cap on 64m is removed or lower caps given to each ranged professions based on type and a it takes a bit longer to close on someone firing from max range, otherwise there is no point except from a pure DPS standpoint. Rifleman are preferred right now because of the long delay times on their weapons (neverminding speed mods) which means higher chunks of damage on a finite pool of damage. It doesn't matter that a pistol could have a higher stated DPS if the damage pool is finite. Given enough the more delay the more damage is increased, because delay isnt factored in that first shot making longer delays more desirable because the actual dps of those weapons is higher than a weapon with the same stated DPS with a very fast delay.
Case in point, hypothetical encounter:
Both have the same DPS of 100 points per second (100 DPS)no speed mods
Both firing at different targets with a 2000 damage pool.
Pistol 1.0 delay Rifle 10.0 delay
Time(seconds) Pistol damage Rifle damage
1 100 1000
2 100
3 100
4 100
5 100
6 100
7 100
8 100
9 100
0 100 1000 target dead
1 100
2 100
3 100
4 100
5 100
6 100
7 100
8 100
9 100
0 100 Target dead
The smaller the damage pool or the larger the delay, the more difference there is in actual DPS from stated DPS of the weapon. As you can see, the rifle finished it's target 10 seconds before the pistol did. Thats becasue the first shot has no delay. Factor the delay into the first shot and the problem removes itself.
CraftAddict
Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:53 am
#238
table didn't get parsed right, oh, well I hope you guys can make that out.
*grumbles something about edit buttons and html restrictions...
*grumbles something about edit buttons and html restrictions...
Jakoi
Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:50 am
#239
Random Thoughts about Faction Bases in SWG:
Make Bases Configurable instead of simply plopped down. Remove vulnerability times making bases vulnerable all the time. Bases do not get destroyed. They simply change control. Bases can only change hands once a game day. Whoever controls the base must have the available lots or he cannot take control of the base. Bases can be redeeded say once a month and for 5 minutes when they are initially placed. Items given to the base are not redeedable and are destroyed if the base is moved. (Base can only be redeeded by the original owner and only if the base has been under his factions control for 24 hours.)
Base Shell - The main part of any base is the Shell. Each shell has differently capacities and capabilities. All shells contain the Computer Core, Command Center and Main Power Generator. These are the heart of any base.
The Computer Core controls all subcomponents for the base as well is where the Friendly Slicer Counters Enemy Slicers. An enemy Slicer must gain access to this room where he/she can then begin disabling base systems and finally the Command Center Defenses allowing the Group Commander to gain access and take control of the base.
The Command Center is sort of the flag room. Here is where Factional Control of the Base is maintained. Enemy Commanders (Highest Ranking Person in a Group) must gain access and control this room for 10 minutes. If successful the base shuts down for 5 minutes and resets under their control. To Enter the Command Center the Slicer must penetrate the Computer Core and shutdown Command Center Defenses which then allows the Commander to enter the Command Center and begin taking control of the base. The command center may also enable a broadcast chat mode that can be heard by all friendlies within the base’s Sphere of Influence. (Only if there was a Communications Tower added.)
The Main Power Generator is housed in a room within the Base Shell. This may be disabled or repaired by Combat Engineers. Disabling the Power Generator disables all automated control of defenses (Defenses that don’t require power still work.) as well as disabling all facilities on the base (Except the Core Computer and Command Center and its defenses.) Base shells come in several different variations each with their own pro’s and cons.
Base Shells have component slots where additional items can be added to give the base more capability. Each Base Shell takes up so many lots from the person who places it. Any item that uses Component slots from the base shell is powered and controlled by the base shell. These items cannot be destroyed. If a base changes control, it must be controlled for at least 15 minutes before you gain access to place defenses and components as well as effect repairs.
Base Walls – Forms an exterior wall around the base that restricts access to the base’s interior components. Walls take up component slots depending on the type of wall. Superior walls will actually have Energy Gates. Walls cannot be destroyed. Energy gates cannot be penetrated by the enemy (Except by Spies.) however an enemy Slicer can disable the gate.
Defensive Weapons – These can be Mines, Turrets, Booby Traps on Doors, Energy Barriers in halls and etc… These items do not count towards the component slots on a base. These items take up actual slots (not lots) that the engineer has (similar to the number of creatures a CH can control and such). These items can be only be placed by a Combat Engineer with available slots. These items can only be repaired by a Combat Engineer. Turrets can be manned by Commandos (Like Turrets in PlanetSide) (It freaking rocks). If a base changes control all defenses are destroyed. A enemy spy with sufficient skill may use some of these items to his or her own benefit. (Such as commandeering an enemy turret to use) Defenses linked to the main Power Generator use power only when firing.
Energy Shield – Forms a protective barrier around the base that prevents those possessing heavy weapons or those within vehicles from getting into the base’s Sphere Of Influence. This item takes up component slots. The Shield may only be destroyed by an enemy Spy. The Spy must locate and destroy the Shield Generator Controls. While the shield is active Vehicles cannot penetrate the barrier and Heavy Weapons cannot be equipped. (This applies only to factions not in control of the base.) Energy Shields consume massive amounts of power. Medical Centers – This is a module that takes up a component slot. This can only be placed by a Doctor.
A Medical Center provides a location within the base for healing and cloning within the base. The Medical Center is powered by the Main Power Generator so if the Main Power Generator is disabled the Medical Center will Cease to Function. If the base changes hands the Medical Center will not function unless there is a friendly doctor with available lots to take control. Medical Centers only use power when someone clones.
Communications Tower – This takes up a component slot and allows the Base Commander (Person in base with highest Rank) and Group Leaders to broadcast communications to all friendlies within the base’s Sphere Of Influence. This may be destroyed by a Spy or it may be sliced by a Slicer to allow the enemy to use it as well. Transmissions are coded so only friendlies can hear them. The encryption itself is impossible to crack but enemies can utilize the system for thier own communications. Power use is negligable.
Radar Jammer – This takes up a component slot and hides the radar signatures of all friendlies within the base’s Sphere Of Influence. This may be destroyed by a Spy. This consumes power only when active.
Interlink Facility - This takes up a component slot but allows multiple bases(within a certain proximity) to be linked. Interlinked bases cannot be taken unless the Interlink is disabled from the base being attacked. Each base in the link must have an Interlink. Interlink facilities run on linked power between the bases so even if one bases power is taken offline the link will continue to function. A slicer must gain access to the facility and disable the link then continue on to the base take over.
Bases require maintenance in order to remain functional. Base Shells consume power based on size and the number of active components within a base. The Command Center Terminal will provide the information on what resources it needs and the quantity it uses per day. An Architect can supply the base with various harvesters which then become linked to the base. Those harvesters can be checked out by those with sufficient Survey Skill and placed. These harvesters are directly linked to the base giving its hopper contents to the base. They cost no power or maintenance to run as this is handled by the base. Harvesters in use take up 1 component slot on the base.
All this will require 3 New Professions and no longer using the current 5 professions to hack a base.
Profession – Slicer (Requires Criminal [new novice profession])
Tree 1 – (Terminals) gives the ability to slice terminals.
Tree 2 – (Disable) gives the ability to disable enemy defenses.
Tree 3 – (Fix) gives the ability to unslice terminals and defenses that have been sliced.
Tree 4 – (Improve) gives the ability to make terminals and defenses tougher to slice.
Profession – Combat Engineer (Requires Engineer [new novice profession])
Tree 1 – (Defensive) gives the ability to make defensive items for use in faction bases.
Tree 2 – (Offensive) gives the ability to make offensive weapons for use in faction bases.
Tree 3 – (Repair) gives the ability to repair Combat Items in the field using repair kits.
Tree 4 – (Combat) gives the ability to remotely use various items to aid in combat.
Profession – Spy (Requires Scout)
Tree 1 – (Stealth) gives the ability to remain off radar, hide footfalls etc...
Tree 2 – (Espionage) gives the ability to use enemy defenses as if they were your own.
Tree 3 – (Double Agent) gives the ability to pretend to be of an opposing faction for a period of time.
Tree 4 – (Sabotage) gives the ability to destroy or booby-trap enemy defenses and offensive weapons.
Of course these were hastily developed professions and are by no means complete… it also requires some new novice professions and a lot of changes to existing professions. This was just to give an idea of what can be done to SWG to, in my opinion, make it a better game
Here is what it would take to destroy a base
1. Spy destroys the Shield Generator.
2. Slicer disables the Energy Gate.
3. Team clears outer perimeter of defenses.
4. Combat Engineer disables the Power Generator.
5. Slicer disables security to interlink facility then disables interlink.
6. Slicer disables security to Computer Core and form there disables the defenses to the Command Center.
7. Commander (havnt decided may be Commando, Specific Rank or Highest Ranking Person In Base.) takes control of the Command Center and holds it for 10 minutes.
8. Base shut down and reset takes 5 minutes. The Commander must be in the room for reboot so the base can recognize the new controller. The Doctor must be in the Medical Center in order to assume control of the medical center. Both must have available lots. (If there is no available doctor the med center will not function.)
9. The base will have no defenses for 15 minutes once it reboots.
10. Once the base goes active components can be added and defenses placed. Provided theres no trouble in taking a base it will take over 30 minutes from start to when the base is fully under your control. Each subcomponent takes time to slice/sabotage.
MohdriDarkstar
Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:11 am
#240
In mixing and matching professions, the key should be coming up with a template that can provide a specialized role for a larger group involved in a new, revamped Galactic Civil War the encompasses zones of control vis-a-vis "battlefields" that have actual impact on the server economy and server-wide factional bonuses as reward for victories.
Toward that end, combat needs to become more group-oriented and "tactical" with a defined "battle space."
Some ideas on how to accomplish this:
1. - Allow Rangers to actually "blend in" with surrounding terrain, becoming invisible while prone, un-TABable, and off the radar (until they make an attack or stand + move- unless they are a Rifleman as well, then a Rifle Concealment test would be checked against all enemy combatants within a 64m radius perhaps.) This makes the Ranger the eyes-and-ears of a field commander, able to observe enemy movements and launch surprise attacks/feints.
2. - Fix Squad Leader specials/group modsso that they actually work, make them the "faction NPC/mech handler" class, and allow them to declare grouped party members "Overt" if the Squad Leader isof greater officer rank than the group member and is Overt. Also, you might expand the Squad Leadera bit to allow them to, if grouped with Commandos and/orRangersfor instance, call in an "aerial bombardment" or some such that could momentarily "soften up" the target zoneby stunning, dizzying, lowering posture, etc. on a 1-hour timer. Volley Fire as it currently stands just uses the groups auto-attack only once against a single target, which doesn't do much to give functionality to the SL. Make Squad Leaders essential to winning objectives on a "battle field."
3. - Make Carbineers the "battle space" controllers, their suppression fire key to slowing down enemy advances. They should have some of the highest accuracy-while-moving modifiers of the combat elites.
4. - Bring Rifleman into more of a Sniper role, while leaving behind their Gunner role a bit to make room for Carbineers as AoE specialists. Extend their range to 80m like a turret currently has, as sharpshooters they should have the extra range. Slow down their rate of fire to compensate, and make them have to Take Aim and kneel, go prone, and/or take cover.
5. - Bump down a notch the Combat Medic's ability to Poison/Disease by giving them +Thrown Weapon modifiers/to-hit modifiers on their Poison/Diseases, and take care of the 80M rangeand through-the-wall attack bugs. Nerf spider venom.
6. - Allow Commando weapons to become useful in PvP, emphasizing the acid rifle and grenades and their anti-vehicular/mining/anti-mine role. For the acid rifle, at least, remove therange handicap and extend it out to 64m. Perhaps make Minefields attackable by Commandos as well, while bumping up the effectiveness of Minefields to damage and slow down/KD/dizzy advancing enemies. Give them the sole ability to place minefields and turrets. They should be the sappers on the battlefield, sapper - demolitionist in military parlance, and vehicles/obstacles should be a real threat on the new GCW "battlefields."
7. - Fix the Pistoleer specials which are redundant, and emphasize the pistol's role as a defensive weapon. Pistoleer should be the weapon of choice for crafters, support classes, and hybrids like the Smuggler and Bounty Hunter. Less accurate except at close range, second highest accuracy-while-moving mod to the Carbineer, higher rate of fire, lower damage, lowest HAM costs in the game. It should be able to get a crafter/support class out of a tight spot, and give the Smuggler/Bounty Hunter a fighting chance (but not an "I Win") when facing melee fighters. Pure Carbineers/Rifleman and possibly the non-melee Commando should be owned straight-up by melee if too close.
8. - Make it tougher for ranged combatants to hit if not taking aim, and/or not standing/kneeling/laying still, and/or not under cover. The trade-off should be higher damage if they stick their ground and greater defense against other ranged opponents. Melee combatants would have a better chance at rushing a ranged combatant in this way, but the chance of getting killed while closing the gap or getting suppressed by incoming fire from a Carbineer is still reasonable.
9. - Curb armor use through armor certifications, less effective armor craftable, more viable personal shield generators, and a combat system that makes armor use more difficult than it currently is.
10. - Pikeman should bea combat elite, not a support class. Give them accuracy mods and less HAM costs, please. They should be the melee equivalent of the Carbineer in that they control the "battle space" via AoE movement suppression, posture changes, etc.except at close range in melee.
11. - Teras Kasi Artist either needs to be dumbed-down a bit or the other melee professions "brought up to speed" in order for it to cease being the "only" melee class for PvP. Make the benefits of TKA be cross-template friendly with other melee classes only, the exception possibly being Pistoleer to a smaller degree. Fix Center of Being and Defensive Acuity, but make Def. Ac. only extend to other meleeclasses if cross-templated and to a lesser extent, Pistoleer as well.
12. - To-hit bonuses melee get versus ranged is silly, just make it much harder for ranged to hit while on the move. Balance as stated above with ranged suppression and increased accuracy while taking cover.
Nytewaulker
Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:52 pm
#241
[i]I think SWG provides the best of both worlds. If I reach master in a profession, I should be the Wizard, or Tank, or Pilot, or Ranger. I should be distinct and have a unique feel. This is specialization. If I spend the points to be a Master Rifleman, at long range I should be unstoppable.
Now for those who like hybrids, they are the generalist, they want to be good not great at ranged attacks, good but not great at scouting tasks, good but not great building things.
The problem a lot of people have with the dabblers, it the system has been set up to reward dabblers with greater power than the specialists.
As a generalist I am not unstoppable at range like a rifleman but can hold my own. On the other hand I then have skills to be good at melee range if I want to make me more of a threat. I cannot do as well as the TKA at melee range but I dont die as quickly as the Master Rifleman.
Mastering a profession should define a role, dabbling should allow you to fit in where holes exist in a group.[/i]
Precisely, and this is a huge problem that conflicts with SWG as a whole. As a player you are left with two overall options when it comes to combat: Do you want to dabble in combat and master in other things and may never get to do anything interesting when it comes to combat OR do you go for the many "Uber" Solo templates out there just so you can actually hunt big game.
Little incentive for the self sufficient combatants [IE Medic/Commando/TKA] to group with those of us who may only dabble in an Elite combat skill [in my case, Master ID/Tailor Novice Swordsmen], thus leaving everybody soloing most of the time. Even a few of my PA mates who master a single elite combat profession cant even solo the big game.
Overall, methinks monster difficulty should be upped a ton just to solve this.
Now for those who like hybrids, they are the generalist, they want to be good not great at ranged attacks, good but not great at scouting tasks, good but not great building things.
The problem a lot of people have with the dabblers, it the system has been set up to reward dabblers with greater power than the specialists.
As a generalist I am not unstoppable at range like a rifleman but can hold my own. On the other hand I then have skills to be good at melee range if I want to make me more of a threat. I cannot do as well as the TKA at melee range but I dont die as quickly as the Master Rifleman.
Mastering a profession should define a role, dabbling should allow you to fit in where holes exist in a group.[/i]
Precisely, and this is a huge problem that conflicts with SWG as a whole. As a player you are left with two overall options when it comes to combat: Do you want to dabble in combat and master in other things and may never get to do anything interesting when it comes to combat OR do you go for the many "Uber" Solo templates out there just so you can actually hunt big game.
Little incentive for the self sufficient combatants [IE Medic/Commando/TKA] to group with those of us who may only dabble in an Elite combat skill [in my case, Master ID/Tailor Novice Swordsmen], thus leaving everybody soloing most of the time. Even a few of my PA mates who master a single elite combat profession cant even solo the big game.
Overall, methinks monster difficulty should be upped a ton just to solve this.
Nytewaulker
Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:53 pm
#242
And I would like to add the only time my PA mates come together is when Krayts need to be hunted or we are going to check out a new dungeon.
Yul-Brynner
Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:33 am
#243
I realise that the questionarrie was set up with just combat profs in mind but it would be cool if every prof complimented every other prof in some way.
So that if i were, for example, a pistoleer and weaponsmith i could make special pistols that only i could make, a medic and architect could make the med centres and so on.
There are far too little profs. If yiou were to master two seperate things they should allow you to combine their skills in some way so that there are many different things that people can choose to be, rather than being herded into one of 5 or 6 main proffesions.
I do realise this might seem like basically changing the whole game but there wouldnt have to be different professions that become available, just different titles for these people and more stats added to them when they master the two different profs.
rcafferata
Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:42 am
#244
What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?
Add a bonus when he/she has 2 combat-professions, 2 craft-professions...
But it's much better if there is ranks elite specialization. I mean
when I am Rifleman, then if can go to senior Rifleman and higer by many play at xp-points at specilization mission.
A very specialization profession.
What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
More different hybride professions may not stronger then one very specialization profession.
How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
See above.
Anything else you want to say on this subject?
I hope a very specialization profession after get a elite profession and a elite mission.
Lukes_alt
Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:50 am
#245
Skill "Specializations" (GCW-PVP/ Player roles)
To increase the degree of individuality / specialization from player to player will require the professions to support a new degree of individualization and specialization.
Basically, what they should do, is add another dimension to the skill system, termed "specialization".
Instead of just grinding away at rifleman, and accepting sniping 1, then sniping 2, then 3, and ultimately 4before working on another tree, a player could further specialize or customize his character if at sniping 1 there were actuall choices of abilities to accept, instead of just being given 1 predetermined ability.
And for each skill of any profession, a player could choose 1 of 2 or 3 possible abilities, or defense mods, or schematics or something.. So that you could have potentially millions people with the same profession mastered, but none of those characters are the exact same.
This system could allow 1 out of 2 or 3 specially granted abilities from a skill to be picked for each individual skill in a profession's tree of skills.
Which could provide more individuality from character to another character then anyone could really ever ask for.
For example, a novice rifleman's first granted ability from the sniping tree is Mind Shot 2, with a +10 to rifle accuracy, a +15 to rifle aiming, and a +15 to concealment chance. After you get that skill, you're happy and start working on the next..
But what if instead of just being given Mind Shot 2, you had the ability to choose between degrees of specialization for that mind shot 2? Maybe you could choose from a Mind Shot 2: Damage Specialization, or a Mind Shot 2: Speed Specialization, one does more damage, and one does more speed, you can only have one, and they both cost the same skill points..
This would diversify us to the point where eventually encountering someone like you just wouldn't happen.
To take this one step further, particular specializations could require pre-requisites. You can't have one specialization, unless you took a certain one previously..
This could provide more individualization then I think anything else as far as diversification of the PVP role.
Jjustin
Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:51 am
#246
This is just an idea that I came up with,let me know what you all think.
What if there was some skill in each combat class that was semi-related to crafting? Or just the ability to upgrade items. For example allow the Rifleman to upgrade rifles, or build a certain one that only they can build. I was thinking it along the lines of an additional sigle slice ability. The Rifleman can add a extra upgrade to any rifle that Smugglers cannot.
I believe that each combat skill needs something very special for just them. Like another post said, something more that just hitting a different stat pool or swinging a differnt weapon. Each Master box needs a HUGE benifit.