Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-17 Star Wars Galaxies Combat Profession Mix and Match
Rorenikibi wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?
The ability to expand the diversity of the gaming universe by creating an infinite number of possible combinations of professions. The ability to create a fairly independant or interdependant character based on whether your style of play is more solo or group oriented.
What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
The main weakness is that it allows the creation and dominance of so-called min/max templates that are designed to optimize the performance of a given character above and beyond the intended limits of the system.
How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
By ensuring that those aspects of a characters skills and statistics crossing over from one profession to another blend with some semblence of logic. That the combination of skills that can occur are handled with the overall impact of the game environment kept first and foremost in mind. The nature of the last major revamp of the Creature Handler profession is a prime example of this kind of logic applied in the overall game environment. It is entirely possible to become proficient as a Creature Handler as a Master or a dabbler without the kind of imbalance that existed before the revamp where the vast majority of the CH profession's strength could be obtained without major investment of Skill Points in the profession.
What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
Doctor/TKA is hugely popular. TKA/Rifleman is another. Pistoleer/Smuggler, Pistoleer/BH, Carbineer/BH are popular combinations for effective firepower with logical crossover of defensive and offensive modifiers. Ranger/BH for the Jedi Hunters. Doctor/Combat Medic is absolutely lethal in PvP. CH/Carbineer/Ranger, CH/Rifleman/Rangers make for very effective PvE hunters. Squad Leader/Rifleman, Carbineer or Pistoleer makes an exceptional unit leader. My own template of CH 0,0,1,1/Commando 0,0,4,0/Squad Leader 4,1,1,0 allows me to perform very well in group PvP or in solo/group PvE, though I suffer dependence on Medic healing or Doctor buffs for the lack of Novice Medic. And any of the combinations above can be made virtually self sufficient with the minimal investment of 15 skill points in Medic.
Anything else you want to say on this subject?
The system at its core is fundamentally sound, there are simply some issues with crossover bonuses which need to be addressed in the ongoing effort to negate the domination of min/max template fighters.
I agree with this guy on most points,but I differ on the assumption that the system is fine on:
- Bounty Hunters having AoE heavy weapons damage. This is unsound and should be strictly the realm of the Commando.
- No armor certifications. We need armor certifications. Armor use is rampant and annoying, most especially with Jedi. Fix them defensively, or make personal shield generators more useful,but disallow use of armor except for class-specific types withspecific combat elites. Exception to the rule should be non-certification faction armor.
- 17m range for Heavy Weapons specials. This makes the Commando fairly useless unless up front and personal. Unfortunately, "up front and personal" is the realm of the over-amped melee classes.
- There needs to be a host of fixes and regulations, especially for the Bounty Hunter, Squad Leader, and Pikeman classes. Long over due.
I think the problems with the current combat professions are twofold:
1. Each combat profession does not provide a unique experience. The "elite" combat professions (Commando and Bounty Hunter) are very unique, but all of the weapon specific advanced combat professions are more or less cookie cutters of each other. Rather than being designed to fill a certain role on the battlefield (main tank, flanker, sniper, close combat, crowd control, etc) they're more or less a sum of their moves and defenses. That's why mixing and matching is so popular right now... people aren't mixing and matching to take advantage of multiple roles in combat, they're combining multiple bonuses and moves that augment a specific generic role. To fix this, each profession should be redesigned to fill a certainrole in both PvE and PvP. Defense stacking should be removed, and the key features of professions should be special skills unique to that profession, in the form of passive abilities, or active skills that require a certain weapon to be equipped. For instance, Polearmsmen could learn "block" which would be an active skill that increased their melee and ranged defense and turned on their collision detection against enemies, but rooted them in place. Riflemen would get a retune on cover, which would greatly increase their ranged defense, accuracy, and damage. Each profession should be similarly tuned, so that the most attractive feature to a profession isn't a special move to spam, but instead an ability that changes the role of a character completely.
2. The combat system is based on a far more static combat model than is currently observed, both by players and NPC's. Let's face it... the combat system expects you to make use of kneeling and prone. 75% of the Rifleman profession assumes you'll be facing enemy players who are prone. But no one uses these positions in PvP, and most people only use them in PvE when fighting lower level creatures or creatures with poor AI. The reason no one makes use of these positions is, again, twofold. First, players are not penalized enough for standing and running. The reason is that accuracy modifiers do not scale with the bonuses for changing postures. In other words, a +20 accuracy difference means a lot when you're a novice... but when you're a master with +100 accuracy already, an extra +20 isn't even going to be noticed. If that +100 accuracy at master was only +30 for standing and +60 for kneeling and +100 for prone... then we'd see more people using prone. The second reason is that there's no real bonus for going prone. You get an accuracy bonus and a defense bonus. However, again, neither one scales upward as you level, so these bonuses become progressively meaningless. A master who's prone should have so much ranged defense that you almost have to go prone to get enough accuracy to hit them.
There are obviously other problems, but in my mind, these are the two main ones, because they're the ones that prevent the current combat version from working the way it's designed to.
Orryhazard wrote:
Why do smugglers have to be really good at using pistols?
I wouldlike it better if you only had to learn a whole column under a specific Tree. If you want to be a smuggler, you need to have pistol - 4 or rifle - 4 or carbine - 4. You can choose which one.
How about the game starts treating Smuggling as a job, not as something you learn skills toward. All I need to smuggle is me, a product, a mode of transportation, and a market to sell in ... not pistols, not unarmed fighting etc.
- LET SMUGGLERS, SMUGGLE!!!
- How to do this:
- This will not be popular, but Smugglers should not be in the GCW, they would need to be removed (samefor Bounty Hunters) - When Han Solo joined the Rebels, he stopped beinga smuggler!
- Every minor faction (Hutt, Swoops, Demon, etc) and the GCW Factions would issue standard missions that require the transportation of goods (resourses, weapons, armor, suppiles) from one city to another.
- To do this, there would be Specific Smuggler Terminals within the factions base (Jabba's palace would have one and the smuggler would have to run the needed missions to get into the inner circle). Once there, they can get a missions that will require them to goto a city and pick up the cargo.
- After they get the Cargo, they have to goto a series of "waypoints" that would require at least 3 Planet jumps and 3 city jumps.
- During this time, the Smuggler will be TEFed to "Guardsmen" and "Enforcers" (more to come on them).
- To complete the missions, and get paid, the Smuggler has to succesfully navigate through the cities and planets without getting caught.
- If they do not get caught, they get paid thier fee for the mission.
- If they get caught (by Gaurdsmen or Enforcers) they either fight thier way out or lose thier cargo
- To many lost cargo's will result in a Bounty
- If the Smuggler decides to SELL his cargo, he'll lose ALL future missions with that faction and will get routine Bounties placed on him
- To many lost cargo's will result in a Bounty
- If they do not get caught, they get paid thier fee for the mission.
- Smugglers will see Guardsmen and Inforcers on their Radar as BLACK dots within 50m (see below to know what a Guardsmen and Enforcers are)
- If the City you are in is to heavly patroled, you may want to try and other starport first and come back when the activity is not as alerted to your activity.
- This will not be popular, but Smugglers should not be in the GCW, they would need to be removed (samefor Bounty Hunters) - When Han Solo joined the Rebels, he stopped beinga smuggler!
- How to do this:
- Create NEW FACTION PROFESSIONS
- Guardmen
- Requires:
- Master Squad Leader& Master Pistoleer / Master Carbineer / Master Riflemen
- Faction Rank of Sergaentor higher
- Master Squad Leader& Master Pistoleer / Master Carbineer / Master Riflemen
- Profession Purpose:
- This profession's purpose is to patrol a city making sure there are no illegal activity going on. Guardsmen are assigned a city that they are responsible to patroling and they gain faction points for thier service and if they get a bonus with they uncover illegal activity.
- Guardsmen, while partoling thier assigned city, will have TEF on any Smuggler, that has cargo, when they get within 30m. It is important that Gaurdsmen do not just focus their efforts on the starport, as a Smugglers Pick-Up and Drop-Off points can be anywhere within the city (player citys are not included in this).
- Guardsmen can also "Hand Select" people in the city and stop them from moving for 20 secs, during which time an "Inforcer" can determine if that person is a Covert Member
- This profession's purpose is to patrol a city making sure there are no illegal activity going on. Guardsmen are assigned a city that they are responsible to patroling and they gain faction points for thier service and if they get a bonus with they uncover illegal activity.
- Requires:
- Enforcer
- Reguires:
- Master Ranger & Master TKA / Master Fencer / Master Pikemen / Master Swordsmen
- Faction Rank of Sergaent or higher
- Master Ranger & Master TKA / Master Fencer / Master Pikemen / Master Swordsmen
- Profession Purpose:
- This profession's purpose is to work with the Guardsmen and provide support when combat is needed. This comes when the Gaurdsmen finds a Smuggler or"Hand Selects"Covert Faction member(s). The main purpose of an Inforcer is to use thier "Ranger" skills to locate and retrieve lost cargo. Any time a smuggler loses his cargo, it will be an Inforcers job to locate it. They will get a missions (faction mission terminal) for Cargo Retrieval. Based on a series of clues and information, they must trace the last know path of the smuggler and search for the cargo using thier Ranger Radar.
- They receive extra faction points for cargo retreived and Covert Members detected. Bonus for killing the covert member.
- This profession's purpose is to work with the Guardsmen and provide support when combat is needed. This comes when the Gaurdsmen finds a Smuggler or"Hand Selects"Covert Faction member(s). The main purpose of an Inforcer is to use thier "Ranger" skills to locate and retrieve lost cargo. Any time a smuggler loses his cargo, it will be an Inforcers job to locate it. They will get a missions (faction mission terminal) for Cargo Retrieval. Based on a series of clues and information, they must trace the last know path of the smuggler and search for the cargo using thier Ranger Radar.
- Reguires:
- Guardmen
BOUNTY HUNTERS!
- Aslo removed from the GCW, they to can get Bounties from different Factions
- These missions only apply to Master Bounty Hunters
- Just like the Smugglers, Bounty Hunters would have to get in the "inner circle" of the faction in order to get access to the Bounty Hunter Terminal.
- Bounty's would be for:
- Smugglers thatlose to much Cargo
- Smugglers that SELL their Cargo
- Guardsmenthat are TOO effective at finding and confiscating cargo
- Jedi's of course
- Enforcers that are carring Cargo
- Smugglers thatlose to much Cargo
- Bounty Hunters have the option of declairing that they are on the "payroll" for a faction
- They can only do this for 2 factions
- You can only run Bounties for the Faction you are employed by
- This will also give you access to "perks" bonus rewards
- You will also be able to run NPC missions
- Faction NPC missions will not available to Bounty Hunters who are not on the "payroll"
- Faction NPC missions pay 50K per mission (twice the normal NCP mission)
- They can only do this for 2 factions
- BEWARE, Guardsmen / Enforcers can and will detect you and they do not like Bounty Hunters in thier city!
- Guardsmen can "stop" you& Enforcers can uncover that you are a Bounty Hunter
- These missions only apply to Master Bounty Hunters
OVERALL IDEA FOR ALL PROFESSIONS
Dedicated Profession:
Thiswould include Bounty Hunter, Commando, "Combat Soldier", Martial Arts Expert, Combat Medic, & Smuggler (and maybe a few more). These professions would be solely deadicate to this one profession. They can dabble, but not in other "dedicated professions". They would have a unique and specific purpose in the game related to the GCW. Below are the "top level ideas"that I think couldbe developed much like the BH was above, then need more work, but I think this framework isa good start:
- Commando
- This profession's sole purpose is the destruction of faction bases, structures, and equipment. They are critical to the GCW as they are need to destroy bases and sway to balance of power. Commando specific missions would be focused on blowing up NPC or Player Faction bases.
- They are very Powerfull, but slower then the other professions
- Bulky Weaponsand Heavly Armored, very effectiveverse objects and large groups of people
- Not as goodin one on one PvP combat (only equal to Master Marksmen abiltites) as they are not a persision fighter, but can cause light damage to groups of people (firing into an area and doing equal damage to everyone with in a 15m range)
- Prerequist would require Master Marksmen and thier own Commando Tree
- They are very Powerfull, but slower then the other professions
- This profession's sole purpose is the destruction of faction bases, structures, and equipment. They are critical to the GCW as they are need to destroy bases and sway to balance of power. Commando specific missions would be focused on blowing up NPC or Player Faction bases.
- Combat Soldier
- This profession represent the foot soildier in the war. There would be 3 types of soilders, Pistol Experts (extremely effective within 25m only), Carbineers (moderately effective at all distances), and Riflemen (Extremely effective outside 40m only). They would be represent the infiltrey of any army. Thier specific missions would be centered around attacking NPC's at bases andproviding Commandocover while they destroy the buildings.
- Very persise at thier range
- Agile and moble, lightly armored
- Able to generate high powered attacks with in thier range, not as effective outside thier range
- Moderate defensive skills
- Each class would have thier own unique skills and abilities
- Prerequiste would be Master Marksmen and Thier own specific tree (similar to Pistoleer, Carbineer, and riflement today)
- Very persise at thier range
- This profession represent the foot soildier in the war. There would be 3 types of soilders, Pistol Experts (extremely effective within 25m only), Carbineers (moderately effective at all distances), and Riflemen (Extremely effective outside 40m only). They would be represent the infiltrey of any army. Thier specific missions would be centered around attacking NPC's at bases andproviding Commandocover while they destroy the buildings.
- MartialArts Expets
- This profession are the close fighters. Specific mission to GCW would include infiltration of bases. Leathal at close range, these guys would have a similar brank like Combat Soldier where they have Pikeman, TKA, and others
- Very persise and fast
- Stealth
- Infilration of bases would provide extra factional points to all group members and provide information about opposing factional plans
- Prerequisite would include Master Brawler then thier specific profession
- Very persise and fast
- This profession are the close fighters. Specific mission to GCW would include infiltration of bases. Leathal at close range, these guys would have a similar brank like Combat Soldier where they have Pikeman, TKA, and others
- Artisans
- These professions are absolutely critical, as they would be the supply chain in the war. Their role would be to keep thier side fully equipt.
- WeaponSmiths make specific Rebel / Imperial weapons and sell to thier side
- Armorsmiths make specific Rebel / Imperial armor for thier side
- Engineers make the Faction Pets and Machinery
- Architechs male the Headquarters and bases
- The would also hve enough Skill Points left over to master a Combat Professions that would provide them enough power to participate in battles, but not own one on one verse a Core Combat Profession
- WeaponSmiths make specific Rebel / Imperial weapons and sell to thier side
- These professions are absolutely critical, as they would be the supply chain in the war. Their role would be to keep thier side fully equipt.
- Smugglers
- These guys would be nuetral and would steel weapons, equipment, armor from each side and sell it to the other faction
- As the title says, the smuggle stuff back and forth between the factions
- Need to keep a low profile, if they get caught, expect a Bounty to be placed
- Pretty good with the Pistol and agile, similar to thier skills now, but limited abilty to dabble.
- As the title says, the smuggle stuff back and forth between the factions
- These guys would be nuetral and would steel weapons, equipment, armor from each side and sell it to the other faction
- Bounty Hunters
- A detailed post onthis is found here:
- http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bounty_hunter&message.id=101236
- Mainly, Bounty Hunters are also neutral
- They are killing for Profit and target High Ranking officials on both sides
- Cunningand versitile
- Not a master of any weapon, but knowledgeable in all
- Not overly powerful, but has the ability to "contol the Position" of thier target
- Extremely effective 1 on 1, but losses thier effectivenss against groups
- A detailed post onthis is found here:
Open EndedProfession:
Thiswould include Novices Artisans, medics, entertainers, and the like. There would need to be Minor Combat professions developed that were not as powerful as the above ones, but allow these profession to have some firepower and participate in the GCW. These professions would be responsible for providing thier faction with the bases, homes, weapons, armor, entertainment, and medical treatment needed to keep the War goin and your side on top.
Now, this is just a framework of my overall idea. You can add to it and develop each profession from there. But the point is that all the professions would be have a Specific Purpose related to the GCW, or in the case of Bounty Hunters, balancing the faction within the GCW.
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Best Idea I've seen so far, personally I think their should be specifics in this game to keep it balanced, and mastering your starting profession Is a great idea. Spread stats across the four trees, and be able to attain most profession perks and stats at mastery level.
Problem with this game is there are no combat roles. The GCW looks like a bunch of untrained militants playing paintball. Give each class the ability in combat, to do what best suits their class.
Base the templates on the GCW and PvP, and then work the system of PvE in. If this was done from the start you would'nt have had these problems.
Setop
TKM, Novice Pistoleer, Medic
guess not sorry bout that......
What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?
Customizable character..originality.... without that i think alot of people would get bored
What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
The really good parts of one professions are usually found in a single row (ex pistoleer)
How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
Maybe scatter the skill around the profession and have the really good specails or benefts at the top boxes. Or add more professions/ skill points so people can have a mix more classes adding more variety.
What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
Hmm thats a tough question... maybe something like Master Brawler with whatever lead to something? Maybe a profesison who uses droids like creature handler of some sorts.
it allows players to not have to rely on other players for things they need. also it gives you more freedom to define your character. and as of right now there is not really an incentive for mastering a profession when just one tree can give you everything you want from that tree.
What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
you dont get a nifty badge! just kidding. the weaknesses are that you run out of skill points without a true discernable skill. you may use one skill most but your special skills will fill your short cut bar up
How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
you should allow people to continue to mix and match professions. but someone who is a master of multiple combat skills should be stronger than other players with out masters.
What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
i personally feel that if a bounty hunter did not have to spend as many skill pts on bh but be allowed to pick what ever skills he wants but make an investigation tree that you need to master to be a bh with no prerequisites.
Anything else you want to say on this subject?
balence of professions should be done. allow stacking but split up the things so that if the player wants the defense of pistoleer or meditate of tk that they need to go up multiple trees in that profession. instead of like now. maybe for tk meditate they need to be a 4321 in tk. well i dont know im just rambeling now. i know you will figure out what to do and what is best for us.
Also leave the combat professions as is until after you fix the Jedi.. Once that happens, Jedi will become more prolific and even with goo templates can have major problems.
With force powers.. what good are ones defenses and resists?
Also I thought it was meant for our defenses to be stacked so that we could tank instead of our creatures..