Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Great Expectations, Major Schedule Changes and making SWG the finest MMORPG ever
notQUIK
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:03 pm
#196
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SO LONG SWG
Geko26
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:03 pm
#197
Betatoxin wrote:
A couple things.
First some posters are suggesting SOE hire more people. Unfortunately getting benefits adding developers to a software team is not immediate. Software development is actually one of those few things were throwing money and staff around actually can slow a project down. I have seen it happen first hand. Fairly amusing watching business folk run up against a problem money cannot fix...but I digress...One of the fundamental principles about software projects is that adding more people actually extends the time it takes to finish a project (Reference: The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering, 20th Anniversary Edition by Frederick P. Brooks).
Software development is not digging ditches where you give the new workers shovels and they are working at max efficiency in a couple of hours. Software development is just too complex. It can take 2 to 3 months for a new team member to get up to speed on the current code base and project, even if they are experienced in online game development and tools.
So does adding developers ever help? Of course it does. Unfortunately for the players today the time for adding new developers and designers was 6 or 8 months ago for stuff to be completed 2004. On a sytem as complex as SWG it would take at least that much time to get up to speed and developing with the efficiency of the senior devs and designers. The good news is that I got the distinct impression that this in fact did happen and there were team size increases in that time frame. That fresh team of developers has only just started to hit their stride.
So it is almost certainly too late to add anyone in 2004 that would speed things up for 2004. Of course if SOE is smart they are always adding and improving their team, but the user visible gain from any team changes today will not be felt for months.
No adding more developers at this point would slow things down for 2004, not speed them up. A hiring freeze would probably have more short term gain, at the expense of the long term.
The second thing is that SOE may be being overly optimistic.
They seem to be assuming that when JTL goes live that they can pull their A team off of JTL dev and back onto the core ground game. I am perhaps a little skeptical about this. History shows that online games require a constant amount of effort, and a live JTL will still demand a lot of man hours post launch. Now SOE may be anticipating this and is right now training the live team for JTL so that the A team (the senior developers) can actually leave the JTL project sometime early of November. However that means that in a perfect world where it all goes well and JTL launches fairly well the focus at SOE is not going to be really on the ground game until december, and will likely not get into full gear until Q1 2005.
So summer 2005 is probably accurate to finish the final revisions on the ground game, assuming that nothing else gets added before then and the JTL publish is relatively smooth and according to plan.
On the positive side it looks like the live ground team is getting up to speed and we are seeing some more aggressiveness from them (BH changes). For one we are seeing these mini-publishes. I think this is a great change and should keep the game moving forward. So what I am hoping is that the players will see not a sudden sprint in Q1 to Q2 2005 but rather a nice even acceleration of positive changes starting now and speeding through the next 9-12 months.
The game is definitely not out of the woods though and I doubt the players will be satisfied with the compromises that have been made to their game in order to get JTL out the door.
OMG, second good post from this guy today!
SOE... Hire him for crying out loud.... he's like a BEACON of LIGHT and WISDOM 
Batlet
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:03 pm
#198
So many things in my mind i would like to express :
Gentlemen wake up please.... Who ever believes the JTL hypes will be up for a very bad awakening. Yes it will look good (if you got the right ubah Pc) yes it is a much needed addition to anything that holds the Starwars label, but heck dont you smell the Banthapoodo ? Just look at it, so far we got nice looking screenies and a lot of hope, but how about *gasp* content ? Seriously, SOE uses great grafics again to lure people buying a half baked product. They are masters at supporting your own hopes, how it could be. But in the end many people will just be left desilusioned and angry about what they really got for the buck.
I'm taking bets on how long it will take, untill the "Wow looks great" shock wears off and people will start to realize that shooting the same 20shipmodels acting the same stupid way as the first noob ship (could easily be replaced with SWG Mobs) will wear off, and people start to missreal content.
Face it, if it werentStarwars this game would have been gone the same way EnB went. (game is shutting down)
Th, i know for a fact that the Devs are overworked and understaffed so i am not going toblame them. It is really time for the ones you used to call "The powers that be" to wake up and get this game in the right direction. Stop just focusing on the dam $ its not that you wouldnt make enough already, and start to deliver what should have been there the day this game got released.
We the customers paid for that and still do, but it wont last forever !
Jedi_Jet
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:03 pm
#199
HOLY CRAP! I cancelled my sub for over 3 months to come back expecting to see a combat revamp in the next few patches now this? I am soooo glad I am using the monthly option for my subscription. I like the content that has been added to the game while I was away (even if I think it was the wrong content to work on) Now you want to work out JEDI problems, YOU SUCK. No one except l337 punks have Jedi toons for the most part, people have worked hard through the grind for them yes, but at one point the major announcements about Jedi PROMISED that anyone including casual gamers would be able to be Jedi, then you phucked it up with the Holo grind. Now this. I hope you guys read every one of the posts in this thread and reassess your decision to focus on a new customer base,This is simply not trying to serve the community, this is a self-serving move by a corporate entity. Ihope Lucasfilm watches your actions closely, and realizes what a phucking mess you have created out of community relations. I have always supported your timeline TH, but you have proven that your needs to expand profits dictates your actions not your need to address community concerns. You say that community needsare one of your top goals everytime you post, but not one trade has had positive patches in 6 MONTHS, smugglers have had issues since before I even started playing last year, that is ridiculous. Show some respect for our needs as well, we are still paying to beta test your product. These combat issues have existed since Launch TH, it is wrong that you want to fix a new product while your original product is skewed to the minority ( JEDI) I have influenced at least 10 people to join SWG over the last year, that is $500 in games purchasing +$15p/mo for their accounts. it may not seem ike much but I have about 20-30 people in a gaming group (external PA) we have been discussing joining enmasse when combat is balanced, now that won't happen. I also work in a computer technology company with 1500 employees, I will be sending a group email to the 200-300 people that I know already have subs but are not active in the forums and letting them know your dissappointing news lets see hos you feel if everyone of them quits in the next week. FIX THE GAME TH, NOT YOUR WALLET.
AudioOrgana
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:04 pm
#200
Thunderheart wrote:
Meplorium wrote:TH please do convey to the higher ups that the customers are very pleased with the job the few people working on this project are doing but are very displeased that there are few people working on this project.
I have. I've been going over the details, the history and the effect this announcement is having on the community for some time now. I've spent more than a couple of sleepless nights in the past couple of weeks thinking about this post. It's not easy for anyone involved.
Hopefully during some of those sleepless nights you realized how you have dangled this combat balance and GCW revamp in front of us since last year, and how you directly fueled the "great expectations" by answering virtually all combat-related questions with, "It will be in the combat balance."
Really, that's the biggest issue right now - many of us feel downright intentionally misled by you and the Development team. I say intentionally, because that's exactly what this feels like - a orchestrated attempt (with the new JTL tidbits released in the past day or two) along with the "veteran reward" ship to stop people from clicking the cancel button.
Like many, I am truly pained at the fact that not one, but two Jedi publishes have been pushed ahead of the actual content of SWG.
Although JustG very clearly stated "subject to change" in his recent proposed schedules, I truly do not understand how if they were accurate at the time of posting how they could have fallen so behind already.
TH, it's great that you understand our pain, but you guys simply have to do something about it. Not tell us you are sorry, not tell us how this hurts you as much as it hurts us - because it doesn't.
At this point, I honestly don't know how you could "make it up" to players. But I hope you find some way to do so - because I think you just put a knife in the hearts of many core, loyal fans with todays news.
I'm not going to swear, name-call, or insult like others here have - there is no need to, because I believe you must understand how wrong this feels to us as players without us having to tell you. I'm sure your conscience is speaking volumes.
AO
silversaber
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:04 pm
#202
I think I now know why Q-3PO left.
I have yet to see him show hismself in this matter and placed it solely on TH to bear the brunt.
For the record, I donot blame Q-3PO or TH whatso ever for this F-up.
I place the blame solely on the upper management for shifting all the resources off of the actual game and puting it on an expansion.
This game needs new upper management seriously, or it will go down the toilet FAST.
Hobbs_Nguyen
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:05 pm
#203
This is me before ThunderHeart's announcement: (_|_)
This is me after ThunderHeart's announcement: (_o_)
That's a downcast Ithorian with a headshot wound. Really.
This is me after ThunderHeart's announcement: (_o_)
That's a downcast Ithorian with a headshot wound. Really.
Genrader
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:05 pm
#204
Thunderheart wrote:
Meplorium wrote:TH please do convey to the higher ups that the customers are very pleased with the job the few people working on this project are doing but are very displeased that there are few people working on this project.
I have. I've been going over the details, the history and the effect this announcementis having on the community for some time now. I've spent more than a couple of sleepless nights in the past couple of weeks thinking about this post. It's not easy for anyone involved.
TH, I just wanted you to know the problem is not JUST the fact that we have been lied to about the fact the SWG team is split up. The fact is the devs don't care. 10 people on the regular team could have made the combat rebalance more quickly. Your team has no priorities. You seem to care more about the minority than the majority. Whats better, keeping 75% of your base or keeping 25%? I'm not going to blame you, TH, as you aren't the decision maker, but you can tell those GOD DANG DEVS THEY ARE STUPID FING MORONS.
ExuroAether
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:05 pm
#205
I have to be very frank with you TH, I'm a developer myself and someone who understands the project flow of what it is the SWG devs go through. That being said, I've been here playing this game with high hopes since Day 1 (Day 2) and have not seen things get better. Broken promises, changing dates, and focus on everything except what the community has asked for has been the track record thus far.
The community that plays this game, those who are ALREADY your customers are screaming loudly for a fixed and enjoyable ground game. SOE once again is ignoring the player base, and problems that have plagued this game for a year running are still set aside for "new features" like JTL. I've posted in this thread:
(http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Kauri&message.id=170939)
... on the Kauri forums my observations on why SWG is not satisfying the player-base right now, and the reasons are piling up.Be honest with yourselves for just once. There are so many broken or terribly unenjoyable features that did not deliver that have been implemented thus far, more "features" at this point will not appease your existing player-base. If JTL is a way to simply market to more outside people.... these new players you would gain, will be heavily tainted by the discontent of your existing player-base.
The existing subscribers want something that works first and foremost. We've been saying this for a YEAR. The folks there developing and producing SWG appear to only listen to praise thrown at them, and avoid the constructive criticisms, and the desires of the paying player. We want a ground game that is engaging, stable, full of features that work, professions that are completely functional, all with a concerted effort of balance and polish.
Jedi and BH conflicts are so far off the map of what was promised from this game and where we all thought the development was headed. I am yet to hear an explanation for the abandonment of the marketing in the beginning that this was a Star Wars game situated between Episodes 4 and 5. How do you expect to evolve with that? How will any future Empire Strikes Back content ever be able to feel appropriate with groups of marauding Jedi and BH's on their tail? What HAVE you at SOE done to this game and the original premise?
Many many of us are at your wits end TH. We've been playing, and waiting. And now to hear that SOE is pushing off the NECESSARY fixes that this game needs to be remotely enjoyable (many people have boycotted the GCW altogether quite some time ago until the revamp) there really is no reason to pay and wait any longer.
I don't expect a response from you, because this is how it is. We the community have been saying day in day out what we'd like to see, and the dev track has not prioritized the needs of the player-base to continue to make this game even worth playing. On the Kauri server alone, this week has been a huge hit for longtime players packing up and cancelling their accounts. Your player-base is fed up. Your player-base keeps this game alive. Continue to push off the existing problems for new "features" and you're just piling more of what we don't want right now, on top of a lot of what we all know has been broken for a long time.
I've played since the beginning, had 3 accounts at one point, and have cancelled them all. It's not permanent. If SOE wakes up and prioritizes what the vast number of dedicated knowledgable players of this community have wanted... and focuses on making the existing game better before trying to placate us with more "features" - I'll come back. Once the ground game, the professions, the content is there for what you've already built... I'll come back. But not until then.
I'd love to hear your honest response to this TH. I'm not angry, nor am I flaming. I'm trying to be constructive, because if I was on the other side of this SWG coin, I'd WANT this type of honest feedback - whether I was the Community Relations Manager,a Developer, the Lead Producer, or the CEO of SOE. As someone who does work on the other side of things in my day-to-day, I know how valuable this is to ensure a successful overall outcome.
You've built a product, it doesn't completely satisfy your customer base. You know that a high percentage of your consumers are dissatisfied. The last thing you should be doing is building them an "attachment" for the product they have core problems with.
If this can't be addressed as it should be, I am reccommending that the player-base speak out with their dollar. Cancel your accounts if you agree, you can always come back... and like I said, I will - but not until the hugely integral issues are priortized properly.
-Ex
antares_Kauri
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:05 pm
#206
So far I've been able to handle the delays. Putting Jedi ahead of everyone else was difficult and made me a little jaded, but as much hope as I had for this game, as much as I am looking forward to JTL...I can't but feel insulted...hurt, really.
How often were the words: "Wait for the Combat Balances" placed before us as the answer for all of our concerns and problems. We felt a little pushed aside then, while Jedi got attentioned lavished upon them, the non-Jedi and GCW got the "Combat Pass" response. And now what? Now we have to wait 9-12 months? Will it ever happen? As a long-time customer, I really do feel hurt, pushed aside and feel as if the management team has their own agenda that does not include customers. I want to have hope, but this decision has broken me despite my wishes to not feel this way.
antares
master pikeman
How often were the words: "Wait for the Combat Balances" placed before us as the answer for all of our concerns and problems. We felt a little pushed aside then, while Jedi got attentioned lavished upon them, the non-Jedi and GCW got the "Combat Pass" response. And now what? Now we have to wait 9-12 months? Will it ever happen? As a long-time customer, I really do feel hurt, pushed aside and feel as if the management team has their own agenda that does not include customers. I want to have hope, but this decision has broken me despite my wishes to not feel this way.
antares
master pikeman
Raikan
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:06 pm
#207
Sleepless nights because he wonders where he will be working in a month
Thunderheart
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:06 pm
#208
actnjcksn wrote:
So....
Where does the Smuggler revamp occur in this new grand scheme?
We've been delayed more than the GCW and Combat Balance revamps and yet, once again there is no mention of Smugglers.
It is in the sametime frame and once we ship JTL and re-assemble theteam, we'll put together a more concrete answer, though it will be during this time.