Development Cycle Archive
Thread: I'm out of my cave!
I want RP events. I want dynamic content. Combat Revamping and the JTL expansion will be great....but how about a little 'love' for people that like RP and content?
TheWardog wrote:
WiskeDarkmoon wrote:
Shug I have a question:
1. Why is new content (JTL,Mounts, Player Cites, etc,)always given priority over fixing existing content that has been in place since day 1 (Smuggler, Squad Leader, GCW, etc.)?
Why cant all new things be put on hold for a short time and 100% attention put on fixing what we have now?
Not just content, what about all those useless armor/clothing/skill attachments that don't work or don't even apply to the skill they are supposed to enhance (2-handed evasion?), yet still drop like flies on dookie? I'm willing to give up 1 Jedi revamp publish for a publish that does nothing but FIX stuff in the game that's been broke since last year...
Wardogus
No, i dont work for SOE and yes, i do like to smarta** from time to time.
Having said that, here goes the answer to your questions:
Software of the scale we are talking about here is extremely complex. It gets worse several orders of magnitude with it being adistributed system with several thousands of concurrent clients.
Experience shows, that it is not (in fact calculations show that it will never be) possible to fix every bug, let alone every bad design in a software that huge.
Even if all could agree what is bad design and what is tolerable.
The problem is, it would not be done with assigning 100% resources for a short time. This task is so huge, it would need 100% resources a *long* time, long enough to completely halt every other development.
Long enough to stop this game from evolving.Once it stops evolving, large percentages of the customerbase will start leaving, and then the game will be dead.
What every management does, when forced with such odds, is to divide its resources, even if that means postponing the various completion dates.
And yes, it is a *lot* less resources intensive to introduce something new, than to redesign something already existent.
Everything else follows from basic psychology and marketing...
SOE is a company, it's only purpose is to make money, it only makes money if it's products are used, it's products are only used if most of the customers have some satisfaction with it, it's customers are satisfied as long as the game is playable to a certain extent and keeps changing to a certain extent, so as not to become boring.
See? Its not about making the ultimate, flawlessgame for one customer, it's about making a game that most of its cutomers are reasonable satisfied with and to keep it from stalling. Repeat that: Keep the game from stalling!
Salaha.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
Okay, trying to answer some questions/comments. Not responding to flames.
"I've played a Star Wars game for over a year now, and Vader still stands in the same spot…"
Totally agreed. We've talked about this a lot internally and none of us are happy with the way the named NPCs are being used. We're trying to prioritize updating them against everything else, though.
"Some people are wondering about the validity of the focus testing and the so-called in-game interviews. As far as I can tell from the stratics polls (mostly forum readers) is that 80% of the players (in the forums) want the CB before JTL. Now instead of debating these facts I ask you this: Can we institute a launchpad poll system in which the players who never visit the forums must click an answer to the poll question after the EULA agreement? This will give the devs some hard data on what players want."
We've also discussed putting polls outside of the forums. No decision yet, but the launchpad would be nice. I can tell you that the focus testing is really just another data point for us. We do it for lots of reasons, including accessibility testing and to test marketing communication (is the logo cool, for example). We don't make any hard decisions based on focus testing alone - it's really there to validate data we get through other sources, including these forums andvarious polls and surveys we do.In terms of "in-game interviews," that really consists of us talking to players in-game just to take a general read on how things are being received. Again, it's not something we use in a vacuum to make decisions. As mentioned before, I think that the forums influence us more than focus testing or other sources of data.
"It doesn't seem as though you have enough programmers writing code."
For example all of the designers code in that they write game scripts. We'd like to be getting more changes in but testing takes a fair amount of work given the complexity of SWG. Also, it's not simply an issue of adding more programmers - we need the *right* peopleworking on the right systems. In somways, this is alsolikeworking on a carengine - you can only get so many peopleunder the hood before they start getting in each other's way.
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Haden Blackman: That's completely not the feedback we're received from the bulk of our community. The bulk of our community has been waiting for this and, though not necessarily upset, frustrated that they haven't been able to jump into the cockpit of a starfighter and go into space."
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Yes, we're doing that on a team level too. To us, a combat balance is just shifting around data, which still needs to be done. A Combat Revamp (which will probably occur across multiple publishes and will include the combat balance) is larger in scope. We're looking at an overhaul here - just check out the HAM bar revamp for starters.
Haden Blackman
LucasArts Producer
I'm commenting on the yellow above. I think a survy/poll system at the launchpad is the best way to get a wider ranger of players involved in gathering data. I understand your desire to get feedback from those that don't use the forums, as you should. I'm one of those that would rather see the CB before JTL personally. When I read that particular comment in your interview I seriously questioned it. For one thing, just because someone says "I'm looking forward to JTL and flying a ship" doesn't exactly mean they would rather is come in before CB. It could mean that they are so fed up with the state of the game and combat system that something new would be nice. I know for a fact, doing my own ingame interviews, that is the case of many. I wonder if you the devs scewed the data on that subject because YOU wanted JTL before anything else big.
The point being here is that a luanchpad survey system will be much much more effective and accurate of what players want. I played Everquest, also produced by SOE, and they used launchpad surveys all the time. There the different choices of answers, and at the bottom was always the option of "I don't care". You could not get into the game until you chose an option and clicked Next. You need the "I don't care" type option in there so you don't seriously scew your results by forcing players that don't care to vote on something.
I hope that systems like this come into use in the future.
Now on to a point later in this reply of yours. About some people who think the combat system is just fine the way it is not needing any major changes. Did you ask them what they play? Did you ask them how long they have played? I don't want to come off in a bad way and start ranting, but anyone who said that is either a crafter or a melee combat profession. Why? Because the melee professions are the easiest and most powerful combat professions in the game. Those people obviously never played a pistoleer, or a carbineer, or even a Pikeman. They must not do much PvP, unless again, if they are melee profession. They also could be pure combat profession and thus def stackers. These folks don't see any problems with combat because they have chosen the best FOTM combat combination there is, and thus the own in combat. Thus they percieve no problems. I'm master pistoleer and master ranger, and they are both seriously lacking.
OK Rant off.
What this boils down to is that the community feels ignored and abused. You are correct in that our expectations have been handled very poorly, but the new recurring theme appears to be nothing more than "We're very sorry...but we're still gonna do it our way". This can only be repeated so often before we become jaded about hearing it.
My suggestion would be to increase the both the number of correspondents, and their role in steering the development process to more efficiently utilize the huge player base that would like nothing more than for SWG to succeed.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
We are NOT shifting a huge number of people over to working on JTL. JTL's progress is such that we will probably only need to pull 1-2 designers (out of 9) from Live. The one area where JTL will impact us is in testing - most of our Testers will likely be working on JTL in the weeks prior to its launch.
Hi Shug, thanks for clarifying some of your statements. There were quite a few people who got pretty upset.
My question is, in reference to your above statement, why is it that you say only 1-2 designers out of 9 will be taken from Live. Yet, when Musicians asked if we could get some kind of buffing interface (since as it stands, we still do not know at all if we actually buffed someone) we were told "all UI programmers are currently on JTL" and were basically brushed off - and told how our customers can tell if they're buffed. Of course they know, the point was that we, as entertainers, play a guessing game at times as to whether the whole process was done right. Why is it that the coders were busy, yet the designers you seem to have still focusing on Live couldn't communicate an agreement that there are interface needs for entertainers' buffs? Who codes without designing first?
Many combat folks will say, "focus resources on more important things, for the larger player base!" We hear this a lot as entertainers. I say to them - how many bad entertainer buffs have you gotten? How many times has a buff just not worked? These things cause delays in the game just like anything else, and frustrates people to no end (entertainers included).
We entertainers need some sort of interface for buffing, so that we know what we're giving our customers, and our customers know what they're getting. Also, Musicians desperately need a means of knowing that we buffed someone - we can't see mind secondary stats, so we have to blindly trust the honesty of our customers as to whether they got a buff or not. No other buffing profession requires blind faith in their customer's honesty to know if their ability worked or not. I can't tell you how many times I've "buffed" someone 3 times, only to find out they are ignoring my insistance that they /stoplisten, and then it's "oh, now it worked!" News to me, nothing indicated so on my end. How about a system message that says "You enhance Shug's Focus and Willpower by 800." Something, please.
Thanks again for clarifying some things you said, it's very much appreciated. We all get in a hurry and sometimes things don't come out right.
Thanks Shug for coming here, putting yourself on the line and explaining some of this stuff. I have been one of those that was greatly frustrated with the comments that were made in those interviews. However, I understand that we as a community almost never get the whole story all at once. Thanks for letting us know. Keep working hard on the things you can get done before JTL. We appreciate it a bunch.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
Hey everyone -
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to all the forum posts regarding the combat revamp and my recent interviews. I was in San Diego for Comic Con and then plowing through literally thousands of e-mails, PMs, and forum posts since my return to make sure I understand all the concerns and questions. I certainly didn't mean for the interviews I gave right before leaving town to cause such a stir or upset any of you, and I regret that I couldn't have been more active on the forums over the past few weeks.
First off, I want to tell those of you who are upset over the timing of the Combat Revamp and Galactic Civil War revamp that I feel your pain. I've been working on Star Wars Galaxies (in one form or another) for over five years (half a decade!). During that time I have grown to truly love this game and the community, not just as a developer, but also as a player. As a player, I've been excited about all the new additions to the game, concerned about any changes, and anxiously awaiting each update. Like many of you, I don't want to wait for the Combat Revamp either. I wish it could be in the game tomorrow. As a developer, I'm disappointed that we couldn't find a way to get it to you sooner.
Second, I want to apologize for any consternation, frustration, or anger that my interviews might have caused. Normally, we do most of these interviews as written Q&As, but I gave these via phone, moments before I had to rush out to meetings and then to San Diego. They were also done back-to-back. I'm sure I could have chosen my words more carefully, but the key points to take away should be:
We're always upset about any changes to our schedule, and we recognize that you're upset too. With that said, the (formerly known as) "combat balance" and Galactic Civil War revamp are going to come after Jump to Lightspeed (which launches in October).
We want to transform the combat balance into a more sweeping Combat Revamp, and we want to take the time to do it right.
Combat Balance is the top priority behind JTL, followed by the Galactic Civil War revamp. We know that these are both very important to the community. We also recognize the need to address Smugglers and Squad Leaders.
We have been and continue to work on the Combat Revamp. Work on the Combat Revamp will not stop due to JTL. We will get it out as soon as possible after JTL.
There might also be some stuff that wasn't clear at the time of the interviews (or wasn't clear from the interviews) that I think it's important you know (if you don't already):
We are committed to receiving feedback from and engaging the community. To that end, we'll be holding a correspondent summit at the end of August.
The community is going to be fully-integrated into the design and implementation of the Combat Balance and GCW. We'll be pumping out design docs as they are ready (the HAM revamp is already on the forums). We'll be starting feedback threads for the designs, and eventually the Combat Balance will have its own "sandbox" for testing. As the correspondents and others play through all the changes, we'll be doing lots of focus threads to get feedback on the actual implementation.
JTL is a high priority for us not only because it's something we believe that players really want (based on focus testing, press reviews and previews, forum posts, in-game feedback, PMs we receive, feedback from events such as Fan Fest Comic Con, surveys, etc.) but also because it is setting a tone for quality going forward. We also feel that we need to have JTL out there before we tackle the full-blown Galactic Civil War revamp because a large portion of the content is faction-based.
We will continue doing frequent publishes that contain interim combat fixes and some small (but cool) tweaks and additions between now and JTL.
We are NOT shifting a huge number of people over to working on JTL. JTL's progress is such that we will probably only need to pull 1-2 designers (out of 9) from Live. The one area where JTL will impact us is in testing - most of our Testers will likely be working on JTL in the weeks prior to its launch.
Finally, regarding specific answers to the interviews themselves... I've reread the interviews numerous times and I can understand how some responses could have been misconstrued or taken out of context. I'm not going to go through every answer, but if you have specific questions/responses you want me to address, feel free to post them on this thread.
I will cover the one answer I wish I could clarify, take back, or nuke:
IGNPC: We often hear the loudest cries from a relative minority. Still, it seems odd that all the comments sent our way have been negative.
This was in no way intended as a slight against the community, or even those community members who posted "negative" comments or sent IGNPC negative letters about the combat revamp timing. I was (poorly) trying to articulate a common phenomenon that basically boils down to "happy community members are generally quiet community members." This has been true for us since launch.
I could have probably answered the question better with something like: "The players who are happy with everything aren't necessarily motivated to send you letters or post negative comments on the forums. Those players who are unhappy with something are far more motivated to let us know about it so that we can address the issues."
I could have also reiterated a point I made in my Game Informer interview by adding something like: "And even though they are often perceived as a 'vocal minority,' these players come from the core of our community, so we take everything they say very seriously because they have such influence and, in some ways, understand specific elements of the game better than we do. We receive thousands of constructive posts from these folks."
Then, I could have ended with: "And, just to show that there are always two sides to every issue, we almost always have community members who do take the time to post to the forums in open support of our direction."
I'd also point out that we also try to get feedback from "non-forum posters", including players who never hit the forums, fans of the films who are intrigued by Star Wars Galaxies but aren't playing it yet, and even people who have left the community. At the end of the day, we want to know what current players like and dislike about the game so we can build on our strengths and correct our weaknesses. The forums are often the best place for the latter (but that's certainly NOT all they are used for), but when we want to know what people like about the game, we often have to solicit that information and look beyond the forums.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'll try to be active on this thread throughout the day, so feel free to shoot me any additional questions.
Haden Blackman
LucasArts Producer
P.S. Please remember that it is NOT Thunderheart's (or anyone else's) job to respond to my communications. I am again sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to the community, but please don't take it out on Kurt.
P.P.S. There a conspiracy theory brewing over a post I made to a Vader thread, which was then mysteriously deleted. No, I wasn't fired (sorry!). The thread asked if we would see Vader and other named characters in more prominent roles, and my response was basically "Yes." We already have Boba Fett showing up in Live Events and there are plans to do more of that. We also want to revamp the major NPCs (eventually). All that is still true. Everything involving a "named NPC" does need my approval and Lucasfilm's approval. As far as the thread disappearing, our best guess is that it was a technical hiccup on the boards, though I won't rule out gremlins or mynocks.