Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-17 Star Wars Galaxies Combat Profession Mix and Match
Kovev wrote:
TO ALLOW EVERYONE USE OF STIM A'S AND B'S WOULD BE THE WORST THING THAT COULD BE DONE
I highly disagree. Giving all players access to Stim A's and B's would simply eliminate the needless waste of 15 skill points on novice medic that everyone gets ANYWAY. Nearly every combat player already IS a novice medic with access to stim A's and well made (experimented) B's... and yet - gasp, Medics are still a viable profession.
How could this be given your percpetion?
Because while the best made B stim will heal a good deal of damage (haven't ever seen more than 400/ 400 H/A myself) a Master Medic can heal your whole pool in nearly one shot. That's why.
Furthermore, how realistic is it to require evey player to invest 15 valuable skill points just to give themselves a simple injection? Junkies (IRL) do this every day with no medical training or experience what-so-ever.
FREE US! Give us our lousy stim A's at LEAST without extorting our precious 15 points!
The problem I see is more in the what you can do area. I find certain abilities in each profession desirable, and others not so desirable. (i.e. Trapping for a Scout) If I wanted to be a ranger then this is a good thing. However this is quite useless if your going to be a bounty hunter. Also I think the fact that unless you are a scout you can't use a camp kit. Granted if I was in the wild I could figure out how to set up a camp without having done it before. I think that everyone reguardless of Prof. should be able to use a multi-person camp kit or atleat a basic camp kit, and only Scouts or Rangers should be able to craft them.
Also I wish there was a Generalist Profession that allows you to choosea little from each Profession. For instance right now if i want to be proficient with rifles,and have Survival skills, as well as medic abilities, and be able to dabble in crafting.I have to be Novice in four differentProfessions It would be nice to be ableto choose Different skills without having to be locked into one or two professions.While there are people who think this gives a generalist an unfair advantageI disagreeageneralist that has wound care abilities can heal butit could be set up so as they don't recieve as much xp as say someone who is a medic or doctor. I could got on but i will end right there...
Part of my desires in the profession systme center around more definition between dabblers and specialists. I myself am the type of player who likes to have an answer in every situation, thus I chose a hybrid profession. However if i wanted to be one of *the best* pistol toting gunslinger, I can only go so far before I hit a ceiling. This ceiling needs to be raised. Right now a rifleman gets up to Master Rifleman and has a bunch of points left over to do other things. But what if said Master Riflema didn't want medic skills, or be able to craft their own weapons...what if they wanted to be an even BETTER Rifleman?? No luck.
If I wanted to specialize, I'd like to have even *more* skills that set me apart from even a Master Rifleman. Really make it unique and powerful, because I'm going to spend all my SP's to get it. Let someone else choose their combat role by being a Master, and then maybe be able to make camps, or heal themselves...if I want to be nothing other then Rifleman, I think that option should be available to me.
As much of a proponnent of the mish-mash of professions and the customization available, I think it also dilutes the playing field as much as it gives it flavor.
In a fantasy standpoint or RPG standpoint it looks something like this: Given 10 levels of skill a Fighter/Mage may be 5th lvl in both and more versatile, but if someone wanted to just be a Fighter then they could be lvl 10 and get all the mods and bonuses of the higher lvl.
I want to see strong definitions of a character. A profession who can be very good, or pretty good in a couple things. I think it would be more dynamic and lead to more people playing within a role and not so eager to give it up a la the Hologrind. If I was told that i would spend 200 SP's for Smuggler, I'd love it and not worry about grinding anything because it would detract from my goal, but only spending 93 SP's means I can do some grinding if I want without as much of a "hit:" to my profession of choice.
My 2 creds.
-Arashi
Bloodfin
the bad thing i see is itpresents some alancing issue which could affect some that has a pure proffesion and work hard for. due a hybrid proffession beeing pbeetter so it seemm to be a slap for the one that choose to work for a pure proffession.
i've seen this in another mmorpg i plaing where you can mix proffessions in asheron's call 1
and what was done there was give those that master of one proffession an item or skill that would balance out with other proffessions and no other profeesion could use plus gave a slight advantage over the hyrid profession which seems to what needs to be done.
plus what would be nice would be to add a very challenging quest that a player or groups of players can do to earn an extra skillpoint or two ut they can only do it once.
Just tossing out ideas.
Just a few comments on professions skill stacking as it relates to balance. Specifically, I'll be talking about Defensive Mod Stacking(Like Melee Def, Ranged Def, Def vs Stun, etc.)
Ultimately, it boils down to:
Argument A: I should be able to mix and match the defensive and offensive statistics of my character because that is the idea of this game - for players to be able to customize themselves and do what they want to do with their own characters.
vs
Argument B: Defensive stacking makes people far too powerful. Case in point, a Master Fencer/Master Pistoleer is nearly invulnerable in PvP combat. Fencer's excellent defensive mods, coupled with Pistoleer's defenses and excellent status attacks (knockdown (kd) attacks, posture change attacks, dizzy, stun, etc.) make this character **edit** near invincible. Also, Fencer gives equal bonuses to ranged defense as to melee, so any ranged fighter attempting to hit this guy has to punch thru Fencer's defensive mods, and Pistoleer's. Nearly impossible.
Now personally, I love defensive mod stacking, but that's from a biased standpoint. I have a character on Scylla who is Master Swordsman, Master Fencer/nearMaster TKA, and he is quite simply a god in PVP, with nearly 170 melee defense, roughly 140 Ranged, +110 counterattack, a staggering +70 defense vs knockdown, high dodge mods, high defensive acuity, high combat equilibrium. Need I go on?
I can see the good points of both sides of the issue though, and put aside my own character for a moment. I agree that defensive stacking can make some characters too powerful, but "mixing-and-matching" is a large part of any MMORPG game.
The problem is balance. If you completely eliminate defensive stacking, then a Master Pistoleer/Master Fenceris on par with a Master Pistoleer/Master Chef, (when both are wielding pistols) etc. Clearly the fact that one of these people has mastered Fencer profession in addition to pistoleer needs to be taken into account. Another huge issue of balance exists with TKAs, and the bane of almost all melee fighters' existence, Unarmed Knockdown 2. Currently the only real way to defend against this crippling Dizzy/Knockdown attack is to stack defense vs dizzy and defense vs KD across multiple classes. If Defensive stacking is eliminated altogether, TKAs will have a field day in pvp - just stick Unarmed Knockdown 2...maybe chill out, have a Coke, maybe order some pizza,andthen come back and finish off the crippled player at their convenience. If defensive stacking goes, then this attack has to be nerfed/eliminated as well. Ditto fire knockdown at range. Any attack that is so powerful to send a player to the ground long-term (Dizzy and Knockdown) needs to have a reasonable way to be defended against.
In my humble opinion, the solution is to stack some defensive skill mods, but not others. Compromise.
Specifically, the Ranged Defense and Melee Defense mods are prevalent in all trees, and affect the chance to be hit with said attacks. A player with over 100 Ranged Defense is extremely difficult to hit with a firearm, and a player with over 100 Melee Defense isn't about to get slapped around by a Pikeman any time soon.
Ranged Defense and Melee Defense stacking have to go, but defenses vs status attacks (I define status attacks as any attack that inflicts a "condition" in the state bar in the upper left of the screen) need to stay, if for no other reason than to defend against the bugged Charge Shot (hopefully fixed soon!), Fire Knockdown, and Unarmed Knockdown 2. If you kill ranged and melee defense stacking, then players become at least reasonably possible to hit, but maintain defensive bonuses vs the crippling status attacks that can swing the tide of a battle one way or the other. That's just my $.02, feel free to comment, criticize, or flame away. Than your time.
-Dagger- Galeri
What I think would be neat is that we take the hybridization one step further.
You can "unlock" hidden abilities by acquiring certain skill-sets.
For example a Master Dancer/Master Combat Elite is like an Assassin of sorts. Let the "smoke bomb" of a Dancer do something in combat. Unlock a hidden "Assassin" special of some sort when Master Dancer is achieved along with another Master combat elite class.
Etc. etc. etc.
As many folks have stated already, the strengths are that you can build your character the way you want to, within the 250 point limit provided by the game. If you want to master TKA and Smuggler, you can. If you want to master Creature Handler and Commando, you can (I think, haven't checked the skill point cost for that one). It also allows for other combinations that aren't purely about combat, such as master doctor/master swordsman. It all depends on what the player wants. The biggest strength however, is what others have stated: By mixing and matching, you can create a character that is, in most ways, more powerful than mastering any single profession.
The biggest strength is also the biggest weakness. Because mixing and matching is more powerful than mastering any single profession, it takes away the uniqueness of the mastery. Too many times, where combat is concerned, have I seen a situation where a master duels a non-master, and the non-master wins. Why? Because the non-master has dabbled in various professions providing overall bonuses that are greater than what the master can achieve. This leads to constant complaining on the parts of the players, about how this and that is too powerful, and they start calling for applications of the nerf-gun. Then when the nerf-gun is used, new combinations are found, and the cycle repeats itself.
Truly unique skillsets require that you give this or that profession abilities that cannot be achieved by any other profession. As it stands now, there are 11 elite/hybrid combat professions (assuming you include Creature Handler and Smuggler), and 2 basic combat professions. I won't bother talking about the basic ones, because anyone who wants to be even remotely successful graduates from the basics and moves into the elites. So, that leaves 11 professions, all that you need to give a unique ability to, that can't be achieved by dabblers. Several of them overlap, with 4 being melee and 6 being ranged. Now, somehow, you've got to come up with 10 unique abilities, that the overlapping skillsets don't achieve, yet are somehow related to the ability in question. For my part, I feel that finding 10 unique abilities for essentially two types of combat (melee vs. ranged) would be an extremely daunting task! Therefore, unique-ness (if that's a word) is achieved by the player, not by the skillset. This is the essential flavor of the game itself, one of it's greatest strengths, in my opinion, which is why I continue to play, even though I've mastered a multitude of professions and have done nearly everything in the game.
What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
I think there are already many neat combinations in the game. However, if I were to add anything to the game, I would add bonuses to characters that are set up in a certain way. For instance, to be a Smuggler, you have to learn some brawling skills. Are they ever used? Not currently. Give the Smuggler his/her defensive melee bonuses in combat, even if he's fighting with a pistol, or otherwise the points are wasted, only used because they're required. Give the BH some sort of bonus for bothering to go up the investigation tree. Alternatively, you can give bonuses for combining combat skills that don't necessarily make sense. For instance, you can give the Master Rifleman/Pikeman certain melee skills used only when a rifle is equipped (vibro-bayonet, anyone?). Or you could even go crazy, and give the master Combat Medic/Master TKA disease-ridden slap-patches, allowing them to deliver toxins/disease while also delivering a nasty melee attack at the same time. Combinations can be limitless, but the better the combination, the more skill points it should require to get it.
Anything else you want to say on this subject?
Just a re-statement from above. No matter what you change or don't change, players will always find whatever combination works "best" and will min/max to the best of their abilities within the game. Some will like that, some won't. You can't please everybody all the time. Therefore, do your best to make a level playing field. Someone who spends 150 points on combat abilities one way should be equivalent to someone who spends 150 points on combat in another way, but they should both be superior to someone who only spend 120 points on combat. There should be abilities that only mastery can achieve, but dabblers should be able to do very well, without being forced into mastery by those unique mastery abilities being TOO good. I have other things I could say, but they are better left in other posts, on other subjects, so I'll just end my post right here.
I posted the majority of this in this weeks round table, but since it applies here, I will copy paste it. Let me add this first part.
In ideal SW combat, the different rolls of combat should be as follows. The Meleers are up in the face of the enemy tangling them up and pounding on them. Behind them are the pistoleers, then the carbineers, and then farthest out is the rifleman. My following information focuses on the ranged combat and weapon types.
The range modifiers on ALL weapons need to be changed. As I stated in the IC pistoleer roll in combat, each weapon type has a different roll, and a different range of effectivness to go with it.
PISTALS: The pistals should be up close, mobile combat. The should be right behind the meleers, moving, dodging, diving, rollin, blasting. The range of effectiveness for pistals should be 0-30m and start getting serious negative modifiers beyond that. Depending on the pistal, the optimum range can be moved around somewhere in there, or maybe for some special cases ie Republic blaster that seems to have a high range, move its limit to 35m or 40m. But your average pistal should be getting for example negative 10 at 40m, negative 25 at 50m and nagative 40 at 60+m. This is accurate with pistals both in RL and in SW universe. The pistal is fast, and accurate only at closer range. In this game they should be the fastest ranged weapon, with the lowest general damages. The pistoleer should be up close in combat, moving about, dodging weaving, doing some minor crowd control, tangling up the enemy, and keeping them distracted from the other weapons type characters. Already pistoleer has skill bonuses for accuracy while running, and that is great, and should be there. This is what the pistoleers should be doing. kneeling, rolling, diving, running. They need some decent defencive mods, both against ranged and some against melee. Since the meleers will likely be coming after them. If the standard dodge, block, perry? defences work against both ranged and melee then thats fine.
CARBINE: The carbine is the middle ranged weapon class between pistals and rifles. They are a little slower then the pistals, and do a little more damage. They should have good ranges say from 30m to 50m. That is their best ranges with no negative mods. If they go below 30m or above 50m, they start getting nagive mods. Maybe a little higher mods when going above rather then below. I say this because in SW you see carbines being very inaccurate at long ranges, blasting all around the target. So the carbine is a little more powerful then pistals, and a little slower, and the carbineer will stand back behind the pistoleers, moving some, but not as much as the pistoleers. Doing some major crowd control, hitting with some high powered hits at the targets. They have some bonusses to accuracy while running but not much. They should be standing or kneeling for best results, and some moderate ranged defences. Not as high as the pistoleers, but a little more ranged defences, and a little less melee defences.
RIFLES: The rifle is the ultimate long range, ranged weapon. These guys should be able to have no accuracty nagative mods for anything over 50m. They are the long range, take out the larger more troublsome targets, lay prone and snipe. The rifleman should be in the last ranks of combat, picking off single targets, or helping to take down the large ones. They are the slowest of the weapons, but also do the most damage. Idealy, the rifleman should not have to worry about anything other then other riflemen attacking them. The pistoleers are the primary defence for rifleman, and the carbineers being the secondary. The rifleman already has anti sniping skills for making other rifleman vulnerable, so this is already in line for logical combat. The rifleman will start getting some penalties for coming in closer then 50m. Say at 40m negative 10, at 30m negative 40, and 20m or less, negative 50. As I believe they already have, if the riflman is prone, and taking cover, etc. should be the ultimate sniper and concealed. Anyone shooting at them with ranged weapons, should have some pretty hard nagatives to hit that rifleman at that point. The riflman should have some pretty high ranged defences, especially with the above mentioned conditions, and no melee defences.
The basic idea of this post is to point out that the range modifiers for weapons are totally whacked and make no sence at all. Some don't even have a positive one at all. There should be a range of distances, where the weapons do get positive modiers, and outside that range they get negative modifiers.
That is all.