Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Punchlist Feedback
Stupidfly
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:25 pm
#131
ltgrifter wrote:
Stupidfly wrote:
16. Move Forcerun1 to Novice Enhancer, it really only adds some terrain negotiation and its silly that Jedi have none to begin with.
No. Jedi have a 50% run increase which helps with this and Jedi can choose terrain negotiation skills along the way if they choose.
50% run increase? Huh?
17. 06:57 PM
Yup, 50% run increase.
This is about where it looked like you just started to act like your crying.
Huh?
Ahh.. BH.. nevermind...
Sifer2
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:33 pm
#132
Jedi and Combat
Number 21 on your list says you believe Jedi should'nt be strong Melee combatants. I disagree with this more strongly than on anything else. Jedi should be powerful in Melee. We should'nt be inferior to Fencers an Teras Kasi Artists due to not having a defensive ability. The very idea of aMelee class being better at fighting Ranged enemies than Melee ones is just silly. I mean do you honestly believe that is a good design? 99% of enemies a Jedi kills he will probly kill in Melee range. An yet you feel he should be required to run away from Melee engagements an use Saberthrow to beat other Melee opponents? It simply does not make sense to me an I would appreciate if you would explain the design goals behind this.
You say Jedi should'nt be a "scrappers" class. I disagree there. They should be exactly that against non-jedi. Which is why it should take a group of players to bring a Jedi down. If your worried about the effect this will have on the GCW then simply remove Jedi from it. We never requested to be a part of it in the first place. Just let Jedi fight against other Jedi in Dark vs. Light battles. Seeing Jedi involved in the GCW of this time periodan seeing them being beaten by an Unarmed man is the LAST thing I would ever expect or wantJedi to be in this game. I realize you may have a few TKA fans among the Devs staff that like Extended Universe Novels but in REAL Star Wars Jedi dont run from Melee. An unarmed people dont fare to well against Lightsabers. Just ask that guy that lost an arm to Obi-Wan in the Cantina.
cbl3915
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:46 pm
#133
crystal drop rates
I've been killing tuskens on tc2 since the drop rate was initially changed, after 200 - 300 tuskens in and around the tusken bunker i have 1 color crystal
I don't believe it serves any purpose to have us hunt any mob for hours or days to find basic components for our sabers.
I've heard that most of the crystals that have been found have been on nightsisters.
Another problem with this is the fact that on highly populated planets the rate of spawns for these crystal droppers is low to begin with, leading to more camping of the static spawns on those planets as well as camping the lesser populated planets.
We really need the drop rate raised dramatically, say, 1 in 10 or 20.
EMC2
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:56 pm
#134
From canon,a Jedi would just "force push" these back instead of deflecting with a saber....
GuanYing wrote:
Also, there's plenty of options to make counters to jedi that would make sense. For example, logically a lightsaber wouldn't be able to block a spray of fire or acid... So go ahead and make fire cone and acid cone go right through lightsaber block.
Another option would be explosives! Grenades and rocket launchers are already in the game! and a lightsaber couldn't safely block one of those logically, so go ahead and make those automatically bypass lightsaber block...
n5ygy
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:06 pm
#135
Thunderheart wrote:
27. Overall skill point requirements need to either be reduced or one tree collapsed.
Having to spend 24 skill points in force sensitive skills that do NOTHING for Jedi and having all skill boxes RAISED
in skill cost is a very bad combo. 8,6,4,2 is simply too restrictive. We have jedi coming from a system where you can
have all powers, to a system where you can not possibly have even the most basic powers and be viable.
That's just not "fun." This revamp is about what is fun, as much as what is good for the game as a whole.
We aren't looking for overpowered here, but we would like to be able to have viable templates and still have enough
points to learn some of the necessities such as Meditate and Force run.
Please lower the skill requirements to 7,5,3,1 which will let Jedi master 2 trees and achieve 4444 in another. This is
hardly overpowered, will still allow for great diversification between Jedi, and will discourage dabblers. Please do us
this one favor, it is not asking too much.
Absolutely the revamp is about fun. It's also about adding depth and choice to the experience of being a Jedi. Adding additional skill points or reducing the skill costs just further homogenizes Jedi making them all have the same basic abilities. That is completely counter to one of the major goals of this rebalance.
Ah I do hope that you are serious about wanting feedback,
and will read this post carefully
Ah, so happy you posted this. Now I know that I should quit this game, and quit it now. There is no point in playing if this
is your attitude. Several people have posted on here what the ACTUAL result of the 'new' trees is, with the high skill point
cost, and you just don't get it.
But I'll try again. You say this revamp is about adding 'depth.' Define depth for me? How is being limited to half the
skills avaialable depth? This is not depth. Depth, to me, would be some subtly of game play. A moment of 'ah, now I get
it!' But limiting a Jedi to being half of what a Jedi is supposed to be? That is NOT depth. That is 'omg, how in the
world do I make this character, that I have spent months and months getting, viable??' Anguish != Depth.
You also say it's about adding choice? Well... lets look at choice.
Choice 1: Lightsaber, or no lightsaber. Well since the only way I can gain jedi exp is by using a lightsaber, then
I must take lightsaber. And because 0004 saber (with one of the other lines at 4) does not give enough accuracy, etc.,
the only viable choice is master lightsaber. ESPECIALLY if you plan to PvP. You now get to pick 1.5 trees from the
remaining 4. (Note: you may try to say that force powers is a viable alternative for gaining Jedi exp. Um, no.
I think most Jedi that have tried powers will agree with this.)
Choice 2: Well, powers is out (powers is worthless), so it's 1.5 trees of 3 actually. PvP I've got to be able to
heal myself, and cure states (or be at the mercy of the totally lame 'kd/dizzy = dead jedi' combo)
so that's 4004 healing, but that doesn't allow a jedi to heal their own wounds or battle fatigue, which they can do now.
so, master enhance, or master defense? Hmm.... Oh why not master healing? Because if you do, you will die in PvP.
Going master heal wastes far too many skill points for a Jedi to really be able to survive in PvP. This also means
that all Jedi are going to be reliant on doctors/medics/and entertainers for wound healing. What are the Jedi in the
FRS to do? Hope that someone is kind enough to gimp themselves by going master healing, and enter the FRS with no hope
of advancing EVER and hang around the enclaves to heal the other Jedi??? Or did I miss something somewhere?
Um yeah, that's all the choices that new Jedi are given. And remember if you choose to dabble in all trees you won't have
enough force power and force regen to be effective at all. Again, no choice there.
Um, the above choices were about PvP... so what about PvE? Um... I don't know. Since no matter what jedi template is
picked, a master fencer, master tkm, or master rifleman does better, why does it matter? Simply pick one of those.
Now, if there were REAL choice, then one could be a master healer, master enhancer, with some defense thrown in. Oh wait,
not possibly, because that template won't let a Jedi defend herself... or level.
Now, this is the reality of the limited skill point selection for the new Jedi. Explain to me how this give 'depth' or
choice to Jedi again? Now, if you switched the skill point costs to 8 2/4/6/8 then we could dabble a bit. Ah...
getting 1/1/1/1 in healing would be viable, or 1/1/1/1 in powers would be viable... and still take master saber. Ok, then
all Jedi that want a bit of healing could do that, or a bit of powers, or a bit of defense, or whatever. THIS would give
depth and choice to Jedi. Because frankly, it would allow us to pick a few skills just for fun, and not leave us totally
at the mercy of the FRS. Or even PvE for that matter. Do you understand the stituation now?
And please, other Jedi that have been testing, correct me if I am wrong, or have left something out. Also, do post
if you agree with my assesment.
About the knight trials: I wonder if ANY jedi will be able to complete them. Kill four rear admirals on the corvette?
You mean the one guarded by 3 or more super battle droids? Um yeah... (I think it is a complete joke that jedi must
GROUP for their knight trials. They should be solo. And nevermind that most of the mobs don't spawn often if at
all.)
About backpacks: You never said why they were removed. Why?? What good reason could you have for this? Seriously.
And nothing was said about the grief fest that the FRS will be. Not a problem for me because a) I'm quiting, and b) I
don't care about PvP anyway...
At the beginning of your post, you stated that the dev team thought the punch list was a pretty good list, yet, the only
thing you fixed out of the entire list was the curing of fire dots?? Every other answer you gave was some lame reason
why it couldn't be changed.
It boils down to this: Jedi can't be solo characters anymore. But Jedi can't group either due to terminals and
visibility. No, I'm not saying get rid of terminals and visibility. But Jedi should be able to be solo.
And as to blocking melee, why not? Think about this. Any kind of reasonable logic should tell you getting close to someone
wielding a laser sword is a bad, bad idea. So they shouldn't. Yet.. TKM's and fencers still 'pown' jedi. Not good. Let
me explain it like this:
Fencer/TKM = king of the mountain -> own jedi
Jedi are king against ranged professions -> own all ranged professions
Ranged professions (including the BH's that are supposed to hunt Jedi) are just owned.
And then of course, combat medics own everyone above.
Nope, that is not worth spending $15 a month on, and it is sure not worth all the time and effort I've put into getting Jedi.
And it sure isn't worth all the additional effort I will require to continue advancing.
And I noticed that nothing in this list addressed the issue of crystals being rare loot only items. And they still decay, and
now they can't be repaired at all. And as for crystal conversion, I logged into test center valcyn today, and I had
a saber that was ALL -9 fc pearls. The best pearl I got back was -5 fc. The others were -2 and -3.
Ah so so much wrong with your answers Thunderheart. I've just hit the highlights here, but I'm tired of giving feedback
that is ignored. But the two biggest issues are the very restrictive skill point costs, and to me, crystals still being
loot only, and now unrepairable. (How many of use feel like this was done deliberatly to torture us?)
Good luck with your game. I hope you guys wake up to reality before this game crashes down around your ears.
And I do thank you for taking the last six months of my life and just ruining it. Thanks so so much.
Ah but why do I bother? You haven't listened, and are likely to continue to not listen. You'll probably say to yourself 'wow
this person is such a whiner, good thing they are leaving the game, who do they think they are...'
Well, I WAS a paying customer.
Well, if your goal for this patch is to upset, alienate, and even force people to quit, then it is a resounding success.
There is nothing 'fun' about being a Jedi in the new system.
Good bye.
PS: No the door won't hit me in the ass as I leave, and NO you can't have my stuff.
TuvarSwaeda
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:26 pm
#136
COLOUR CRYSTALS:
I dont recall this being on too many "official" lists, but it is on many peoples individual wish lists. I would like to submit that instead of making colour crystals craftable, they could still be a loot item, but they could possibly be made to have no decay. This will do 2 things. It will make a lightsaber much more customizable. If a Jedi is forced to use whatever crystal they can get their hands on just to use their saber, there is realy no feeling that they can customize as they like. Secondly, the demand will be lower so the cost will go down (hopefully - as long as the economy works right), making it easier for Jedi to obtain the necessary components for thier sabers without having to sell their first born to do so.
Hopefully this canbe a viable solution, it doesnt give Jedi any more power, or make them any stronger than any other profession, but it does allow them to more easily have a weapon and not end up in the middle of a fight and suddenly have their saber go out due to decay on an item that doesnt enhance its ability to do any damage.
FignarKrynn
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:29 pm
#137
1. Jedi cannot block melee attacks....at all. This is unacceptable.
Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range. This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.
are you feeling ok? you have essentially forced this class to participate in the GCW essentially making it the only PVP dedicated profession in the game. In pvp you come across various combat classes and most of these classes have defences against melee. What you are saying is jedi can fight a rifle man who uses a RANGED weapon while we use a MELEE weapon but we can't fight MELEE opponents if that is logic what planet and what game are you playing exactly?. All that means to me is TKM gank squads. SO you are essentailly letting a major flaw go unchecked. We need some melee defence this isn't hard to do add it to the modifiers in the robes if you have too.
Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range. This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.
are you feeling ok? you have essentially forced this class to participate in the GCW essentially making it the only PVP dedicated profession in the game. In pvp you come across various combat classes and most of these classes have defences against melee. What you are saying is jedi can fight a rifle man who uses a RANGED weapon while we use a MELEE weapon but we can't fight MELEE opponents if that is logic what planet and what game are you playing exactly?. All that means to me is TKM gank squads. SO you are essentailly letting a major flaw go unchecked. We need some melee defence this isn't hard to do add it to the modifiers in the robes if you have too.
Message Edited by FignarKrynn on 06-22-2004 09:33 PM
SarakKye
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:37 pm
#138
A lot of paying customers have given their feedback and in some cases clear, logical and well thought out solutions to the current problem which is a complete and utter lack of depth/creativity. I have two very good friends in the gaming industry, they have worked on titles like Lord Of The Rings (ROTK), The Sims, Splinter Cell, and Ultima Online. In a sponsored article I heard about EA actually wrote up that there is a real crisis in the gaming industry and that is a lack of creativity on the part of the game designers..(yes my friends, they really are that bad). The guys I know echoed that, saying it was abysmal in fact after working at several prominentshops.One story was where the studio who did Lord Of The Rings were so uptight that the imagery and context had to be exactly what was in the movie (which all falls apart in slow frames) they threw out some very compelling content..I got to see it, and was disappointed for them that their work never made it out the door. The reason that choice was made was due to certain people not wanting to risk or make a decision that might affect their jobs, afraid that the powers that be might not like it..the irony is, if you can't risk in designing a game then that is a real loss. We the players and customers end up loosing.
So my point is, one of the main reasons I started playing MMORPG's was the community aspect and I naively thought that perhaps the game designers would really consume the great ideas that are brought up in the forums, and we have had a ton! In this case, we started with a top 10 list, then top 5 and what is being implemented now is an abomination to what has been very benign requests on the part of the player base. Too many Jedi - So the genie is out of the bottle and SOE wants to put it back in by slamming an already hosed profession? I wonder if they think by doing this it will create less of a desire for other players to pursue Jedi, thus reducing the frequency of them. Maybe, it will make most players want to stick in the traditional professions? "Balance", probably the most overused word on the forums and also the standard knee-jerk response when they don't want to answer the obvious..they screwed up. Jedi was put into the game to create a hook to keep people playing/paying; attrition rates are very, very high in online games. it was meant to take a long time for anyone to unlock and progress...we did it faster than they thought and it totally blew them away because, there was no plan to fall back on. They may care what we think and I have no doubt they know what we need but at this point I am totally convinced that they are not capable in delivering it...its just not going to happen.
So fortunately, I have money and time..met some interesting characters and can have some fun in the game at times, granted its content I and others create and not anything noteworthy provided by the game design.
To sum it up, after almost a year I continue to be disappointed in what SOE and Lucas are providing in SWG. However,I am quite impressed with most of you all. Maybe some of you would be great game designers, give it a shot..this is an industry with NEED.
Thorolfsk
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:38 pm
#139
Hoods are essential for role playing. Can't feel like a jedi if you dont look like one!
DarthMaul73
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:46 pm
#140
Please fix totalhealall to actually totally heal all. And do it for 500 force power on yourself, and 1000 for others.- instead of the 1000 it can cost on yourself and 1500+ on others presently.
Please fix healstatesself to actually cost 50 like it does on live, not the 500 it costs now.
Please fix healstatesother to actually cost 100 like it is supposed to, not the 750+ it costs now.
please fix curepoison so it actually works the first time.
The fire dot addition IS a welcome touch, but please fix the rest of these healer skills you guys broke last week.
Thanks!
Please fix healstatesself to actually cost 50 like it does on live, not the 500 it costs now.
Please fix healstatesother to actually cost 100 like it is supposed to, not the 750+ it costs now.
please fix curepoison so it actually works the first time.
The fire dot addition IS a welcome touch, but please fix the rest of these healer skills you guys broke last week.
Thanks!
n5ygy
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:49 pm
#141
Burr wrote:Uh, because it is a game and no one is supposed to have an automatic "I Win" option.
GuanYing wrote:Why is "balance" brought up so much as a reason not to make needed improvements? I thought you guys said you wanted jedi to be as amazing as they can get?? Jedi from the movies were overwhelming!! and very powerful in an UNBALANCED way compared to non jedi. Thats supposed to be the point...
We are NOT asking for an 'I win' button. We just don't wan't to have the 'I loose' button that this nerf
sticks us with.
Locusk-Pistoleer-CH
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:51 pm
#142
/agree
/applaud
Very well said.
I am not very hpoeful that anyone on the development team will give your post anything more than a passing glance at best however for what its worth I couldn't agree more with everything you had to say !
swgsoul
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:00 pm
#143
/add to last posting
Also need to relook at them XP penalties. 200k is a bit much for a 0 skill padawan to loose just b/c his saber (his using one) or powers don't do damage as fast as, we'll say, a novice brawler (as most jedi get compared to) IMO it should be based more on the amount of skill points spent to that point.
Example would be the following table
200+ skill point left = 0 XP (just started or very near that)
150+ skill points left = 50k XP loss
100+ skill points left = 100k XP loss
50+ skill points left = 200k XP loss
0+ skill points left = 1 skill loss
I really don't under stand why Jedi even have a skill or XP loss in the first place. NONE of the other profs loose anything for dieing, NONE of the other profs had to work so hard to gain 1 skill. NONE of the other profs get stuck with little damage, no armor, and gangs of ppl hating the. NO other proff get perma-overt EVER.......
thats it for now.....