Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Community Relations Follow-up
LevaOripa
Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:38 am
#131
Polls
This is a philosophy issue for me and I want to share my opinion on polls with you rather than just saying “no”. It is our job as Community Relations professionals to read the boards, look for commonalities, talk to our customer service representatives, and report back to the development team. A poll will never cover the breadth and depth of everything in Star Wars Galaxies to the extent that the message boards and our other reporting methods do.
This is a philosophy issue for me and I want to share my opinion on polls with you rather than just saying “no”. It is our job as Community Relations professionals to read the boards, look for commonalities, talk to our customer service representatives, and report back to the development team. A poll will never cover the breadth and depth of everything in Star Wars Galaxies to the extent that the message boards and our other reporting methods do.
That’s not to say I am completely against using all forms of polls, just that they should never be used as the sole method for making a decision. I do like the idea of polls that involve information gathering, like asking players “What is your least favorite Star Ship?” or “Which planet do you visit the least?” or even a poll that asks you about your play experience before you log off. But polling isn’t the right way to make strategic development decisions. It’s up to us (you and the Community folks) to work together on the boards and I think we can get to that point without resorting to polling.
Jonathan "Calandryll" Hanna
Director of Community Relations
Director of Community Relations
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my counter arguement to this
In the GCW forum there are 4000+ posts from players they want to have there faction rank title as a option to Tag there character with
What is there to dicuss about this ? Its something ALL Faction players want
Nothing to dicuss
No Dev or correspondent response either........ its not even listed by our correspondents top 10 ideas for the GCW
This is a complete and utter Failure from the Communications aspect
Hylidex
Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:37 am
#132
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Flatfingers wrote:
A "Forum Issues" Board
The first one is easy: Will you also be adding aboard to discuss forum features? Now that most of the login issues have been addressed, I'd expect that most messageson aForum Issues boardwould be useful suggestions.
This is an interesting idea and one I had not considered. I'm not sure what the long-term use of such a forum would be though. It might be interesting to consider a website forum, so you all can give us feedback on what you want to see on the site. We aren't ready to start talking about additions to the site yet though, but when we are, we could include forum ideas as part of a forum about the website. The search feature is also on my list of things to ask about btw.
And thank you for posting such good feedback!
Message Edited by Calandryll_SOE on 01-11-2005 03:14 PM
I posted this suggestion several times on several forums, but since there is no forum for forum-related topics, it is always off topic there--even on GAT. 
I have the distinct pleasure of having been told I was off-topic on the "any topic" forum. 
A forums forum would have three uses, and if all goes well, two of the uses would fade over time:
I have the distinct pleasure of having been told I was off-topic on the "any topic" forum. A forums forum would have three uses, and if all goes well, two of the uses would fade over time:1. To provide assistance to people with forum-related questions, such as "how do I put a url link into my message?" "how do I edit my message?" "Which is the proper forum for this issue?" etc.
2. To be a place for discussion of forum issues, ideas, and suggestions. It would be a good location for announcements of forum-related changes or added features, such as the forum ranking system implemented a few months ago. At the same time, it might bea place to, on-topic, discuss moderation policies IN GENERAL, such as when it might be acceptable to bump a message, and whether certain types of "goodbye" posts should be allowed. Specific moderator acts, and questions such as, "Why was my thread locked?" should be considered off-topic from the outset to prevent the board from being overrun by such posts. I would imagine one thread would be an ongoing discussion about whether red-name posters should be participating in lighthearted conversation. The discussion would be similar to the discussion in the professions forums in that it is just discussion--not a mandate for policy change.
3. To provide a location for reports of forum-related updates and bugs. Game issues have the "/bug" command, but forum bugs have nothing. When we were timing out on the forums in the length of time it took us to compose a reply, this would have been a good place to post our concern. A year ago, I found that every time I tried to post, the window would close when I clicked submit. This would have been a place to go for assistance. Currently, quoted posts that contain indents or bullets generate an "Invalid HTML message," requiring the user to delete the invalid HTML. Even this reply generated a "s tyle=" invalid html message due to quoting the indent, and i had to edit it as an HTML. This would be a good place to discuss this. When HTML posts were locked for a while, this would have been an important place to announce it. If a new forum feature is being added, both the feature announcements and the bug-related posts would be here in one location.
If no issues or changes arise, it would still function as a place to turn for forum-related questions, so its use would be ongoing. I doubt it would ever turn into a dead forum, but if all goes well, traffic might be on the low side--about the level of some of the slower professions forums.
And the most beautiful part about it is that it is probably a lot easier to do than an in-game change.
Erillion
Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:43 am
#133
Great ideas .. I am especially looking forward to the CSR forum .. REALLY REALLY needed ... and theupdate posts ... its ok to change a plan or having a delay in implementing something new .. but the "not knowing" and "feeling lied to" was what caused so much unrest.
However a caveat is in order for the following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another change to moderation is we are going to be tying board accounts directly to in-game accounts. What I mean by this is infractions for board conduct can become a mark on your account........ But in order for moderation to really have an impact it must have teeth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I myself have been forum suspended twice already - comes with being on the forum so longI guess. The second time was supposed to be almost 2 weeks because it was the second infraction.
In BOTH cases the forum ban was lifted prematurely by another moderator as the reason for banning (last time : "Excessive trolling" after posting something (non-rant, non-flame) both on Naritus and the Game Guide forum was in no way proportial to the length of banning. Seems like I justmet a moderator that had a bad day ... and the resulting outcry on the boards about my banning generated more bannings and an aweful lot of non game related posts (and yes, that included intense flaming).
Now imagine a forum ban also meaning a game ban (temporary or forever) ... quite simply a 2 week ban would ruin my "job" as resource gather in SWG if its the wrong day (a few days before renewing harvester maintenance for instance).
One bad judgement from a moderator (and in my case it happened twice ) and you essentially can ruin someone in game ? A forum ban CAN be a cooling off period. A game ban will usually mean a lost customer.
Food for thought.
Have fun
Novarider
PS:
>>>>>>>>
The one great idea I saw was move the Core Systems out of professions. Many people (see above) dont seem to know about it so they post in the first forum they see. Move Core Systems to the main forum listing.
>>>>>>>>
VERY VERY much second that suggestion !
How many posts in "Game Guide" (the only non server non profession specific forum) should really be in "Core Systems" ?? But people never found it in profession forum or did want their post to be seen by more players than those "in the know" having found the "Core systems" forum.
Message Edited by Erillion on 01-12-2005 01:29 PM
Korlan
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:00 am
#134
/wookiehug
Hey I love our Dev's =)
I know you guys are bust butts to continue to provide us with a great game.
Hey I love our Dev's =)
I know you guys are bust butts to continue to provide us with a great game.
Drecki
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:01 am
#135
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Bugs
We’re currently planning on creating bug list posts along with information on the status of the bug. On a regular basis, we are going to compile “Top 3” bug lists for each profession and post these in a thread. This post would also include information about the bug’s status, such as whether it is assigned or not, an ETA for a fix (if there is one), if we can’t reproduce it and need more information, etc.
How about a list of known exploits? I mean, there might be some bugs not fixed yet, which are considered as exploits, some others are not -I don't think anybody got banned for using the shuttle repair bug. Not everybody might know he's using an exploit. Some things might be very obvious, others are not. This would give customers more security about this, instead of getting his account banned, because he uses some hint another player gave him.
If such an "exploit list" existed andif it was well communicated, maybe even by ingame-mail, no one could say: Hey, I didn't know this was an exploit.
JerikSkyr
Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:05 am
#136
I'm sorry, but i really have doubt in the system as it stands.
Some of the mods in my eyes, abuse the powers they have by threatening players accounts and what not
If someone does something to warrent that, then fine, but when its said just to me said in a thread where players are having a conversation about the past...come on
i'm sorry, i really can't buy into the promise of better CS
CSR's are worthless, as many have posted, they have 'token' responses to everything are VERY rarely help people, so you ahve to wonder exactly WHY they still have a job.
Things are to the point where people are affraid to voice their opinions, because those that do are banned....and now you add to taht and ban them in game....real good way to promote better CS....wait, i guess it is....if no one says anything there are no complaints
I'll probably get banned for speaking out, but frankly, I, along with many others, am sick and tired of devs/mods/csr's ignoring the true problems of the game, the true disrupters of the game...the dupers/exploiters....yet perma banning for cursing
i'm not the out-spoken type, but sorry, cursing is FAR FAR less disruptive and damaging to this game than the duping and exploiting, the bugs....if they can be called that after a year and a half.
I love star wars, and for some reason i still love this game, but my patience is wearing thin
Maulibaer
Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:36 am
#137
At least it seems, that we now get some feedback!
Thx for that!
(Last year most of the time only Tiggsy gave us some feedback......)
I even got an answer at the points I wrote! AWESOME!!!!
Looks really good to me!
Go on in this direction!
jeffrah
Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:46 am
#138
Yep the feedback from a red-name is great however the stuff outlined should be assumed when running this type of subscription service. Please fix the major issues/bugs that are constantly being pointed out in every respective profession board and then please release the combat rebalance. The empty promises are all that have kept the player base that you currently have and if they don't get fulfilled soon you will lose a great number of paying customers which define your employment and livelihood.
I post this in true respect of your consideration and effort in taking time to communicate with us. Thanks.
I post this in true respect of your consideration and effort in taking time to communicate with us. Thanks.
Gingali
Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:49 am
#139
if you get this done, i will never pick again on any of you.
There would be no reason to do so then either
cheers again from me,
Gin
There would be no reason to do so then either
cheers again from me,
Gin
ArcadiusPryde
Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:47 am
#140
Cal,
Good to see a familiar Developer from someone like me who put in seven years on UO. While I disagreed with you sometimes or not thats more idea conflictions. However, you desperately need to control the forums as it has become a rant/flame/1-star fest. Ideas or good threads are one starred just because some fool thought it funny.
Second, having any form of a NDA on the CU is not a great idea. I don't suggest allowing the Corrospondents to spew all their knowledge, but allow them to communicate with the community as a whole about particular issues. If you keep a firm grip on how things are posted I don't see any particular problem here. At worst it would allow you to get better feedback or should in any event.
Lastly, no information is a very bad thing, and as such has caused many problems within SWG. Mainly you see a negative view toward developers andpeople being paranoid about publishes. I can only say you can help this by just being honest as you seem to be. Telling people this isn't going to change in the immediate future or any time soon can be disheartening but it helps.
-Arc
Eightaces
Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:28 am
#141
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Stricter moderation
Yes, this is a good thing. One of the biggest problems we face as community representatives is sifting through flames in order to find the useful posts. We are going to be more diligent with our moderation. That doesn’t mean you can’t post constructive criticism, but calling us Nazis, writing rants, and posting off-topic in an attempt to derail threads where we ask for specific information doesn’t help us or help you. In truth, we aren’t changing our board posting guidelines at this time (if we do change anything we’d let you know) we are simply going to start enforcing them a little more diligently.
Another change to moderation is we are going to be tying board accounts directly to in-game accounts. What I mean by this is infractions for board conduct can become a mark on your account. To be clear, NOBODY is going to get a mark just for writing criticisms or posting negative feedback. These marks will act just like an in-game infraction and will be used to determine if an account needs further discipline or not. Understand that we are not out to “get” anyone. We aren’t going to mark someone’s account just because they post a topic to the wrong board once or anything like that. But in order for moderation to really have an impact it must have teeth.
Note that the Community Relations team and board moderators will NOT be making decisions on whether an account is actually banned. That will be left up to the same people who have always made decisions on player discipline in order to ensure that we are consistent. Our primary job will remain to communicate with you and take your concerns to the Development Team. We WANT your constructive feedback, positive or negative, and we want to make these boards the best tool possible for you to give us that feedback.
An official announcement will be posted to the site in the very near future once this policy goes into effect. I expect this will cause some people to bristle, but I can promise you it will make the boards a better place to visit and post ideas, criticisms, and feedback for those who are genuinely interested in affecting positive change for SWG.
This does NOT fill me with good cheer. I think you had best re-think this a little bit. To hold an axe over people's heads, and make no mistake, that's precisely what this is, in response to their attitudes or opinions on these forums.
Who will be making the decisions on the "marks" on people's accounts.
What accountability will they have to your PAYING customers.
Will people be notified on any "mark" on their account.
Will people have any recourse to challenge extremely poor decisions on the person who placed the mark on their account (if you think there won't be any, think again).
It is very much sounding to me like you only are going to be wanting people to say what you want to hear. Customer Service (Community Relations is part of that, like it or not) that does not show some empathy and understanding with it's customers (ALL of them) is simply telling them they aren't important to them and go somewhere else. With the horrendous performance of Customer Service in the past, what's going to make that different going forward? You realize you have an almost unanimous low opinion of SWG's CS dept.
Your competition in game playability is FAR superior to you right now. You have more competition on the horizon that is poised to take even moreof your playerbase away. This isn't the time to be telling more of them they aren't important and go away.
These forums are your customers way of expressing themselves, frustrations, ideas, whatever. Start listening to them. Good, bad and Ugly. Right now you're not, and this statement tells me you have no intention of doing so if it's not something you want to hear. Some people are not eloquent in the words they use to describe what they're trying to tell you. Their opinions are still important.
And remember, I've run large CS operations. I do have some idea what I'm talking about.
swgsomething
Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:45 am
#142
Jonathan "Calandryll" Hanna, are you reading the message like the two above? Ihave noticedthat you have carefully chosen which messages to respond to here, but you are skipping all of the ones that say there are fundemental flaws that need to be adknowledged and dealt with before more heavy-handedness is passed out on the customer base.
Why is there a 'gulf' between Community Relations and Customer Service? These two departments should be working hand in hand on a daily basis. Someone should be paid FULL TIME to read these forums and collect ideas, comments, bugs, etc and see that they are appropriately dissminated to everyone in your company on a regular basis. It SHOULD NOT be up to corresspondents to decide what are the top 3 bugs for their profession. You should already have a HUGE list of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bugs that exist, and the Customer Support people who are required to spend at leasta portion of their work hours actually playing the game should be the MAIN champions of what needs to be fixed.
Along the lines of the previous thought, how many developers are fully unit testing their 'fixes' for the mini publishes? Is there anyone in CM there who can identify the areas that will be affected by code changes, and properly manage the testing strategy to make sure entire systems in game are not taken down when a release goes live? Why are so many bugs that are documented in Test Center released to production?
These are all real issues... The people making the reprioritization decisions there are not paying attention. Sure, there are people who will /cheer having the sit-to-float bug. I could care less because it is only one simple little bug that doesn't detract from having fun... Frankly, I could also care less about the combat rebalance, or JTL. I would play this game for 10 years if there were a new mini publish every week that fixed 10 known bugs. I am sure MOST people would enjoy that. Take the 20 new developers and put them all on bug fixes for the first 6 months they are there. FIX and UPDATE EVERYTHING! Only then, think about combat rebalances, etc.
Forget the pipe dream of a Galactic Civil War for now - PLEASE!!! Think how great it would be to advertise that you actually have a fully functional, and updated game where hard quests for evil witches on Dathomir paid more than 10 to 50 credits on completion. Just think about it... People want content, and systems that work. Consider being a merchant - which by the way recently got 'upgraded' (er NERFED) by the devs - WHY on earth would we want to keep punishing ourselves by offering a large stock of 4,000 items to the general public so they can find what they need to enjoy the game if everything that doesn't sell every 30 days can't be relisted without 10 to 20 hours of BORING effort? Does Wal-mart have to take everything off the shelves every 30 days, take it outside, put it down, pick it back up, bring it back in, re-enter the prices and data in the computers, restock the shelves, etc? How crazy is that idea? Yet that is how the system works in game. I would bet MOST people there are unaware of this because they don't use the system themselves... YET, IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP ON THE BOARDS... It should have been resolved by now, instead of the system continuosly 'punishing' merchants who choose to offer services to the rest of the community.This is just one of HUNDREDS of similar exmaples of things that take fun OUT of the game...
Why not spend time making the systems work, so it is all fun? Why spend so much mystery development time on things no one really understands or is sure they need like craftable faction armor...? (Although I think that WILL help make the game more star warsy...) That is not as important as making sure that anyone who goes to the trouble of getting a hunting party to go to the Geonosian Caves, and spends a few hours working their way through the whole thing can actually see the almighty Acklay at the bottom? I for one NEVER have because EVERY time, either a jedi blasts by us near the end and takes the kill before we can get in, or someone logs in to that room as we are working our way down, kills it and logs out again. Talk about an easy way to demotivate a large group of new players who you worked hard to bring together and play with... These type of things should be the MAIN priority right now... /sigh
I hope to hear back from you...
Message Edited by swgsomething on 01-12-2005 12:23 PM
DeQuosaek
Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:53 am
#143
AnmeldungStinkt wrote:
I saw in a year of playing SWG many changes being shouted down by players, claiming it was in their very own interest.
The thing i miss the most was a change to crafting that would have made the quality of resources really significant and therby might the competetion have increased.
People shouted loud enough, you were intimidated and changes it back. Unfortunately most of these shouters didn't view the change as "how could it enhance the GAME" but "how does it influence MY GAMEPLAY".
If you ask people "Do you want the taxes to decrease to 1 %" most would scream back "YES!" but it would not really BE what they want (a ruined economy state, unsafe circumstances for their children etc.) but they would believe that it is what they want.
Yes everyone has a voice, but please stop listening to those that scream the most and start to listen to those that speak the wisest. Sometimes you overheard the concerns about the "1 % taxes" while many were screaming that they would want them.
I fully agree with you on this point. I actually liked a good portion of the infamous crafting changes. Some items were able to be made much better during that day or two that it was live. Of course, I'm not saying it would have been good for everbody, but some of these changes are complained about by people who are 'going with the flow' or 'jumping on the bandwagon' without even trying them out.
I also like your example of taxes. Of course everyone would like to pay less taxes, but do you want the school teachers who teach your kids paid less, the police who keep the streets safe paid less, firemen who risk their lives paid less, streets not maintained as much, etc? I welcome taxes as long as the money is used wisely, but that's another discussion.
Most peoplejust think of how changes affect them and their gameplay. They seem to have a very myopic view of the game. In my opinion, people need to think about the 'big picture' more often instead of just themselves.