Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-11: Combat Roles; Ranger
How about allowing a command after areatrack so we can macro it without the animal/people/player window.
one thing that I don't understand is that a group get a terrain negotiation bonus frm having a squad leader in the group, but none from having a ranger in the group. Afterall its the rangers who know how to move in the wild, so group member should benefit from having a Ranger in the group.
Also, even as a Master Ranger, I find traps mainly useless. There ought to be better traps.
Last but not least the tracking distance is poor.
Rangers need to be more than just some kind of big game hunter. That role is already adequately filled by anyone with Hunting IV and strong weapon skills. Additionally, it is nothing but a blue-collar occupation. Hunters of creature resources will never achieve the kind of wealth their crafting clients possess, because economies simply don't work that way. A blue-collar occupation is not suitable for the skill points demanded by an elite profession.
What defines the Ranger role in combat?
Currently nothing. Rangers are a combat class -- we have two lines primarily advanced by creature hunting, one line only advanced by creature hunting, one ability (Rescue) that ostensibly functions in combat -- but we have no real combat ability. An observer watching one of my fights would not be able to tell I was a Master Ranger without seeing my title.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The purpose of a Ranger is to secure territory, either to pave the way for advancing troops or as part of an ongoing defense. In the SWG world, that means being able to deal with both enemy combatants and hostile creatures. To that end, Rangers need the ability to detect any kind of hostiles, evade them when possible, and fight them when not. Ideally, the Ranger profession would have required Rifles IV and had the same relationship to rifles as Smugglers have to pistols, but it is almost certainly too late for that now. Given the current state of the game, Ranger combat ability should be focussed primarily on traps, both the thrown gadgets currently referred to as traps and static traps.
Setting up camps -- temporary bases of operation or fortifications -- is part of securing territory. But it is not a combat ability, so it has no place in this discussion. In any case, the role of camps in SWG has to be re-examined by the designers before players can meaningfully comment. With the impending removal of the camp requirement to deploy pets and equipment, camps are becoming a useless appendix.
What offensive abilities?
Rangers should have traps effective against all targets. Rangers should be capable of killing humanoids, creatures and even droids with traps if necessary. Rangers should be capable of "crowd control" via traps -- locking down enemy forces to restrict their combat ability -- and "pulling" -- isolating enemies from their allies. Rangers should be certed for grenades just like Commandos. We're already throwing devices at the enemies; it doesn't matter if they emit sonic pulses or go "boom".
Rangers should be capable of placing static traps, either to defend an area or preparatory to leading enemies into the traps. The duration of such traps -- the length of time they persist before "dissolving" -- should depend on whether they are placed in open ground, to support a camp or to support an installation. Rangers should also be capable of detecting and avoiding or disarming such traps.
What defensive abilities?
Rangers should have stealth, allowing them to attempt to avoid combat, and the ability to detect and remove static traps, including minefields. They should have defensive bonuses against traps of all kinds.
What unique abilities?
Tracking -- if it's in the wilderness and you want it found, call a Ranger. Tracking should not work in urban zones -- those areas are the province of a Bounty Hunter.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Rangers should add the ability to avoid unnecessary or undesired fights, and the ability to manage fights through crowd control and pulling.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Rangers should require standard weapons professions, either their own or other PCs, for primary combat ability.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Other combatants should depend on Rangers for stealth and for locating choice targets. (Standard mission terminals shouldn't even exist on Endor, Yavin or Dathomir -- if you want to find Rancors, stomp around blindly or bring a Ranger.) Fight management should be shared with Carbineers (crowd control) and Riflemen (pulling via rifle concealment).
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
First in, last out. The first step in assaulting a faction installation should be sending in your Rangers to sweep for traps and neutralize the installation's patrolling Rangers.
Even though I have already posted here with this, along with many others......
Look at NRaas' Outdoorsman proposal, it answers all these questions and more.
Some basic balance considerations are:
* Ranged and Melee Professions
If Rangers hunt alone they can't avoid close combat with creatures. It were nice if we could, e.g. by using traps to keep the creatures away from us and shoot at them from a distance, but currently Rangers are close combat fighters against creatures and thus meele suits better.
Realisticly many players would probably prefere ranged.
* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
Rangers unique abilities should focus around terrain knowledge (bonus fighting in rough terrain?), hide/disguise and hunting.
* Game Space
Rangers are clearly an open environment class. Nature, Open terrain, woods, mountains, even caves are were Rangers are at home. If we get a bonus for fighting in the field (terrain combat bonus) we should also get a penalty for fighting on the streets or indors. Street/Indor fighting is where smugglers and bounty hunter rule.
Rangers are an outdoor class and should be recognized as the rulers of the wilderness.
* PvP and PvE
clearly Rangers are more a PvE class (PvM) and less PvP. However, this does not mean that a Ranger can't learn a second profession which is more PvP oriented.
* Profession Lifespan
absolutely. It needs to bring a clear benefit from advancing up the trees. On the current trapping tree for example, there is hardly any benefit. Also the fronterierng tree only breings two new camps and nothing else. The only benefit from having the frontiering tree is these two camps and the additional skill which actually only is a means to and end and hence does not have a benefit on its own. Just two new camps is not really sufficient.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theRanger role in combat?
a Ranger is an outdoor PvE fighter. When fighting against creatures and when fighting outdoors, we should receive a bonus.
The outside bonus should apply against all kinds of enemies, e.g. when a Master Ranger is fighting a Pistoleer in the wild, the Ranger needs to have the advantage of knowing the terrain. In citys or buildings a Ranger should have no bonus.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
nothing specific.
What offensive abilities?
creature hitting bonus. outdoor fighting bonus. (better hit or more speed or better accuracy).
Better/faster traps. Throwing traps takes way too much time. While I throw a trap, other classes have already landed 3or 4 hits.
Also, a master rangers needs to be a lot faster in throwing traps than a novice ranger. this is one point where progress through the class could be refelected better.
What defensive abilities?
defense bonus when outsite (can move quicker in rough terrain, can disguise himself).
What unique abilities?
throw traps, lay traps to lure targets into the traps for disguised combat (why does a creature need to know who/where I am when I trap it?).
Also, the ranger should have a skill like a rifleman to allow him to attack creatures within giving away his position. (conceal shot?). This might only work against creatures and might even be limited to traps, e.g. can throw traps at creatures while hiding and once all traps have landed the Ranger will start the real combat. (conceal throw traps)
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
not necessarily group combat bonus, however why can't the other group member benefit from the terrain negotiating skills? Groups get terrain negotiation bonus from having a squad leader in the group but gain no bonus from having a ranger in the group. I guess that Rangers are better suited for leading groups through rough terrain. Hence, a group terrain negotiation bonus would be applicable here.
Groups should also benefit from the Ranger using his traps. This however would require to make traps more usable (stronger, faster to throw, longer lasting).
How could/should they interact with other professions?
There would need to be a much higher dependency on Rangers to provide hide, bone and meat.
There is hardly any way to make money as a Ranger. Solo missions get no money and difficult missions can't be taken on by a Ranger all by himself. Selling harvested resources in the only source of income but do due the various kinds of hide, bone, it is immensly difficult to harvest large amounts of good quality. (constantly have my bag full of 30 different resources, from Lok avian meat to Dathomir bristley hide).
Rangers should also be self sufficient in the way that they can survive and prosper without relying on anyone else. This would require basic crafting/repair skills as well as some cooking skills.
Maybe Ranger could also play a bigger role in creature handlers live. e.g. a creature handler could rely on a Ranger to find babys to tame. (the ranger finds the baby and the creature handler tames the baby). Or babys would need to be lured away from their parents before a creature handler can tame it.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Rangers should provide a clear bonus to a group traveling/hunting in the wild. Currently there hardly isn't any bonus fro having a ranger in a group. Every group wants medics/docs, squad leaders, combat medic, creature handlers in the group but no one needs a ranger. Its a bit odd given that Rangers are THE class most suitable for outdoor activities.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
One option would be that for important or difficult outdoor missions a Ranger is required to locate the exact location of a mission. e.g. the group gets a rough direction about the waypoint/location while leaving it in accurate for a 1mile radius and the ranger alone can use his tracking skill to locate the exact position of the misson objective location. (e.g. imagine Episode VI and the mission on endor to find the shield generator. it was so small that a unskilled group would have had a hard time to find it, but with help of the ewoks it was easy).
Request For Comments:
The Ranger profession has a nice touch, but unfortunately, its too weak in combat and too unimportant to play a big role in team activities. I thing a ranger should distinguish himself in five main areas:
1. offensive and defensive bonus when fighting outside or in rough terrain (not cities or indoors)
2. offensive and defensive bonus when fighting creatures
3. hide/conceal ability (also when in combat or to prepare combat, e.g. throw traps
4. unique trapping skill - this needs to be made stronger and faster
5. unique tracking skill - this needs to be applied more often and the range should be expanded. Groups should rely more on this skill to locate creatures (no mission terminals on endor/dathomir?) and to locate mission objective's position.
Hows that for a run-on sentance?
But serriously, after so much debate and with such an overwhelming acceptance by "our community" the Rangers.
How can we deney this is the way to go?
Dex Fay'Scatha
Master
Baby creature TrackeR on Radiant
\ Rua Ardan ~ Dantooine /Another vote for the "outdoorsman" concept.
As an up and coming ranger I am disappointed in the abilities provided against NPCs and PCs. I prefer the "outdoorsman" conepts be addressed first though, and thenmaybe another look at the pvp side of ranger (as far as i can tell, there is none.) *hint* traps *hint*
Halton Greywind -Sunrunner- novice ranger-novice rifleman- dabbleing in medic and CH
Thunderheart-
Greetings, while it appears that most Rangers including myself do agree with NRass on Outdoorsman Concept, it appears that there are many that would also like to see a more "modern" or "militaristic" Ranger. Which ulitmatly I hope that the developers would bring it to the world. I have come up with a possible skill tree which i will post here soon. But this world is missing a true combat stealth class. As I said i do supprt the Outdoorsman concept but would also like to see and Antarian Ranger/Sector Ranger concept as well. Maybe we need a seperation like the rumored Droid Engineer and Droid Handler idea. Thanks for your part in making this the best game I have ever played and thanks for looking to the players for making it better. We just ask that you listen to what we request and do all that you can to implement these items.