Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Publish 7 Feedback: Droid & Droid Engineer Enhancements
Neomaniac
Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:57 pm
#118
Also one more thing, ok you have a thing called a Testcentre, u supposedly tested out the new droid thing. While in testing how could you not have seen any of these bugs? Or am I just getting your whole testing methods wrong?Do you realise the bugs on the testcentre and think to yourselves, we'll put it on the normal servers to see how many people will complain?
StarRider99
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:06 pm
#119
Master DE -
Crafted one new probot to check it and repair kits out -
Watched it get its circuits handed to it in trial combat
Logged off and logged on to my chef and architect and filled orders there
THAT was the net effect of today's publish - thanks for the bug fixes - appreciate those and lower
battery usage - the new combat clusters etc - but what in the name of everything holy are you guys
thinking?!?!?! If major systemic changes are too hard and must wait for publish 8 then publish 7
should have had worthy additions within the context of the current system. This is LESS AND LESS
about Star Wars and a noble story and more and more about Ultima Online in space. We just have
rancors and krayts instead of dragons.
Its really so very very very easy guys. Put in good combat droids and make the parts lists and resources
required enormous. Sentient machines with heavy weapons should be FEARED because they are intelligent
killing machines. Make the best of them too large to go into any dungeon...they are for open air and faction
combat only. Smaller less capable models can go everywhere but have lower capabilities...single target
capability for example while the large machines can handle multiple targets. Some might be good only
against creatures and not players (software limits), etc. By all means make the largest
money sinks...millions of credits. A good M-1A1 tank today costs 4.5-5.0 Million...its not a reach by any means.
I can only think of the pride a guild might have in taking delivery of a large factional combat droid...knowing
the work everyone including the DEs put into making it, knowing the cost, knowing that it in fact can kill very
well indeed, and knowing that a 100 megawatt fusion reactor and energy weapons arein fact more powerful
than the neighborhood dog, be he natural or cloned via bioengineering.
Creatures are fine and have their place, but this future is about technology, and limiting it to black powder
and musket efficiency is just plain silly. Enhance personal shield generators or do what you must to 'balance'
gameplay including PvP BUT STOP WITH TRYING TO 'BALANCE' ANIMALS WITH TECHNOLOGY ALREADY!
Its beyond silly and only shows that its basically D&D with blaster art added.
I could go on but it seems pointless...
I just don't get it - even as a software guy myself - why are you doing whats easy instead of just doing it
right from the get go and listening to what your customers are saying??? Droids are an essential part of the
SW universe...its ashame this profession is still broken value-wise so long afterinitial release.
In summary - publish 7 from the DE point of view is a bug fix...while these changes may lay the groundwork
for something better in the future...the rate of progression is insufficient to either retain long term
interest in the DE profession,or worse yet in the game itself. I have 3 accounts - I really really really WANT
this to succeed...but I'm sorry to say all I see is the dream slipping away. I'll see if some attempt is made to
communicate with us and make some truely worthy changes, but its likely the last time for me. I've invested
alot of time and effort....but frankly speaking....its probably better spent elsewhere (as is the money) unless
someone begins answering the mail in a meaningful fashion.
Everette Fireborn
MDE - Tarquinas
Slothrop27
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:35 pm
#120
With every publish there is an element of dissapointment and anger that runs through the SWG community,
everyone knows this, and everyone has come to expect it and deal with it. The tagline that runs like
a mantra from the DEVs is that "not everyone can be pleased with every publish" and it comes from an
old saying that "you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time,
but you can never please ALL of the people ALL of the time." And it's a smart saying and it makes sense
that the DEVs hang onto it.
Most mature community members try to see the big picture, try to look at the bigger balances, and
then make their decisions based on attempted walks in DEV shoes. But the surprising thing about this
publish is that the DEVs are drawing criticism from these very same people. People who have been
community members since launch but who have a small number of posts are coming out of the woodwork to
voice their dissapointment. Long sober arguments are being made against the very foundation of this
publish from thinking caring customers. Responsible DE's are conducting experiments, depleting their
best resources, in order to judge for themselves the worth of what has been "given" to us.
And the resounding conclusion is that we are very distressed by this publish. For all intents and
purposes the best combat droid we can offer is an astromec droid. I get a sick feeling when I think
about watching little R3 droids running around with their utility buzz saws out trying to slice into
some creatures. It just doesn't seem right. Everyone knows that it isn't right. I'm just not sure
I can figure out what the DEV's were attempting to do with this publish. Droids that were never meant
to fight (astromecs, LE repair droids) now have the Best HAM available, and droids that always had
some combat capability are now virtually worthless due to the Armor Changes.
There is a basic fallacy taken right from the patch notes: "To have the strongest combat droid, six 100%
combat modules must be used in constructing a droid." First off the only droid that can have six is an
R3; Second even with 6 100% combat modules the R3 does not exceed the damage that a 5 module Probot can dish
out; and Third if by "strongest" the DEVs mean the best HAM, that doesn't make sense due to the fact that
combat modules have nothing to do with determining HAM rates, as every DE knows.
Add to that the inability to Color Droid Chassis' anymore, the rendering useless all the pre-patch general
socket modules that used to go into utilty droids, the headache inducing complexity of Damage and Wound
Repair kits, the utter lack of any new Combat Droid Chassis', the Droid Invasion WallPaper that is driving
every DE crazy with /tells asking for Trade Federation Battle Bots, and Super BattleBots, and what we're
left with is nothing worth writing home about. Or worth playing the game for.
I have been a Master Droid Engineer for over 5 months, and have been waiting anxiously with other dedicated
DE's since the very first mention of this publish many months ago. The news from Test was distressing,
but each DE took it upon him or herself to comment on the proposed changes over and over, and when these
changes looked concrete and immenent we all braced ourselves and waited for live so we could all give them
our best shot, and judge for ourselves. But now the DE community has been cut down once again, and we really
have no idea how it happens, over and over. The best of intentions just do not get translated into a workable,
viable, exciting Profession.
DE's are upset, customers are upset, everyone that cares about this game and about Droids is upset by this
publish. There has to be some accountability. Or some words of explanation from the DEVs on what they
were/are trying to achieve with this publish.
Sorry for the long-windedness, and the dramatic tone. Flame em if ya got em.
Respectfully
everyone knows this, and everyone has come to expect it and deal with it. The tagline that runs like
a mantra from the DEVs is that "not everyone can be pleased with every publish" and it comes from an
old saying that "you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time,
but you can never please ALL of the people ALL of the time." And it's a smart saying and it makes sense
that the DEVs hang onto it.
Most mature community members try to see the big picture, try to look at the bigger balances, and
then make their decisions based on attempted walks in DEV shoes. But the surprising thing about this
publish is that the DEVs are drawing criticism from these very same people. People who have been
community members since launch but who have a small number of posts are coming out of the woodwork to
voice their dissapointment. Long sober arguments are being made against the very foundation of this
publish from thinking caring customers. Responsible DE's are conducting experiments, depleting their
best resources, in order to judge for themselves the worth of what has been "given" to us.
And the resounding conclusion is that we are very distressed by this publish. For all intents and
purposes the best combat droid we can offer is an astromec droid. I get a sick feeling when I think
about watching little R3 droids running around with their utility buzz saws out trying to slice into
some creatures. It just doesn't seem right. Everyone knows that it isn't right. I'm just not sure
I can figure out what the DEV's were attempting to do with this publish. Droids that were never meant
to fight (astromecs, LE repair droids) now have the Best HAM available, and droids that always had
some combat capability are now virtually worthless due to the Armor Changes.
There is a basic fallacy taken right from the patch notes: "To have the strongest combat droid, six 100%
combat modules must be used in constructing a droid." First off the only droid that can have six is an
R3; Second even with 6 100% combat modules the R3 does not exceed the damage that a 5 module Probot can dish
out; and Third if by "strongest" the DEVs mean the best HAM, that doesn't make sense due to the fact that
combat modules have nothing to do with determining HAM rates, as every DE knows.
Add to that the inability to Color Droid Chassis' anymore, the rendering useless all the pre-patch general
socket modules that used to go into utilty droids, the headache inducing complexity of Damage and Wound
Repair kits, the utter lack of any new Combat Droid Chassis', the Droid Invasion WallPaper that is driving
every DE crazy with /tells asking for Trade Federation Battle Bots, and Super BattleBots, and what we're
left with is nothing worth writing home about. Or worth playing the game for.
I have been a Master Droid Engineer for over 5 months, and have been waiting anxiously with other dedicated
DE's since the very first mention of this publish many months ago. The news from Test was distressing,
but each DE took it upon him or herself to comment on the proposed changes over and over, and when these
changes looked concrete and immenent we all braced ourselves and waited for live so we could all give them
our best shot, and judge for ourselves. But now the DE community has been cut down once again, and we really
have no idea how it happens, over and over. The best of intentions just do not get translated into a workable,
viable, exciting Profession.
DE's are upset, customers are upset, everyone that cares about this game and about Droids is upset by this
publish. There has to be some accountability. Or some words of explanation from the DEVs on what they
were/are trying to achieve with this publish.
Sorry for the long-windedness, and the dramatic tone. Flame em if ya got em.
Respectfully
ckaul
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:42 pm
#121
TH, here some answers:
Are all of these are working correctly?
I think not. What does mean "correctly" for you ?
NONE Amor - can not be true!
Read the buglist at the end of my post
Are combat droids helpful to non-combat and new characters?
For non-combat chars: Only the R3 with 6 Combat modules is in Combat help-full
For new characters : yes, everything helps against kreetles and nunas
Are combat modules stacking?
Yes, they do
Are your droids no longer susceptible to poisons, bleeds, /warcry or /intimidate
For me Yes, but i heard about some Bleeding Dots (still reported)
Are the Droid Damage Repair Kits and Droid Wound Repair Kits working properly?
Yes, great ... but noone want to buy them
Found Bugs:
- I cant choose a droid-colour in craft-process anymore
- Amor resist will change after the first call
- None Amor. If this is a feature: its not acceptable
- In datapad the listed command: "store" is basicly programmed with the keyword "release"
At last let me say that im very diasappointed with the offical announcements to Publish 7 and 8.
Batteries and Repair Kits were really a step forward, but SOE better had never call this "Droid Invasion". No one will believe to your offical announcements anymore after these "Crackdown" and "Droid Invasion" - Jokes and i cant see any real good changes in Publish 8. The DE-Community is really disappointed ...
(sorry for my bad english - Im german)
Are all of these are working correctly?
I think not. What does mean "correctly" for you ?
NONE Amor - can not be true!
Read the buglist at the end of my post
Are combat droids helpful to non-combat and new characters?
For non-combat chars: Only the R3 with 6 Combat modules is in Combat help-full
For new characters : yes, everything helps against kreetles and nunas
Are combat modules stacking?
Yes, they do
Are your droids no longer susceptible to poisons, bleeds, /warcry or /intimidate
For me Yes, but i heard about some Bleeding Dots (still reported)
Are the Droid Damage Repair Kits and Droid Wound Repair Kits working properly?
Yes, great ... but noone want to buy them
Found Bugs:
- I cant choose a droid-colour in craft-process anymore
- Amor resist will change after the first call
- None Amor. If this is a feature: its not acceptable
- In datapad the listed command: "store" is basicly programmed with the keyword "release"
At last let me say that im very diasappointed with the offical announcements to Publish 7 and 8.
Batteries and Repair Kits were really a step forward, but SOE better had never call this "Droid Invasion". No one will believe to your offical announcements anymore after these "Crackdown" and "Droid Invasion" - Jokes and i cant see any real good changes in Publish 8. The DE-Community is really disappointed ...
(sorry for my bad english - Im german)
jemelby
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:49 pm
#122
Two items:
- While crafting the meds, we get no indication of what the # of charges will be. We don't know untill we make the prototype. Makes it imposible to properly label the final product.
- Droid Deeds do not inticate armor level.
Overall, I am disapointed with the patch. I've been a master DE longer than anyone on flurry, and am still waiting for the DE love.
RabidEwok2
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:53 pm
#123
It's not much of a "droid invasion". I'd call it "droids being upset" or "droid unrest" at the most.
Why not give us *real* combat droids that are useful beyond levelling basic professions?
Imagine a CL40 droideka with 25k HAM and some nice armament. Difficult to balance? No, just make it unhealable. Think AT-ST. You could balance powerful combat droids the same.
BuckDharma
Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:21 pm
#124
When is the patch coming to restore droid armor? Still have 40% resists but armor is gone. Probot is level 13 now?!? If you try to use it, it's worthless.I have to agree with everyone else, where are the combat droids? What did DE's do to deserve this? Wasn't the first probot nerf enough, 3k ham to 800 ham? Then the whole moth of droids being able to die to get rid of the remaining pre-nerf probots. /bah
Shadowtalker
Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:45 pm
#125
I was looking forward to have interesting new combat driods just for some basic fighting but this new nerf makes them useless..... and the fact that you didn't tell the DE's..... ok that is just wrong!
Eniako
Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:55 pm
#126
This made me laugh till I cried and if you dont care, I think Im going to add it to my sig
AshleyHumes wrote:
You said it was a 'Droid Invasion', but I think that was a misnomer. It was a 'DE Invasion', and the least you could have done was lubed us up and kissedus first.
neshura
Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:40 pm
#127
]]] Over the course of a week or two some very perplexed Devs (who had been hearing "Give me droideka!" for months prior) listened to the "DE community" (or that 10% of it that makes their voice heard) and decided that the customer is always right.
---------------------------------------------------
The DE forum is not the friendliest place. Even the devs don't want to post there. It often goes poorly when they do post. When the DE forum sees red, the first thing that happens is that seventy eight DEs change their sigs. Think of the DE forum as a pack of feral IT professionals...
(not necessarily feral through any fault of their own)
We're a bunch of snarling Dilberts with roast rat haunches speared on our sharpened pocket protectors, desperately trying to guard our miniscule piece of a tiny hunk of meat.
But to get back on topic, here's how this all went so horribly wrong, based on how I saw the debate evolve...and this, of course, is JUST MY OPINION, from a generally unpopular master DE, professional loner, and avid forum reader.
* Forum DE's hear about love from devs late last year, start threads talking about what should be added to DE
* "Give us droideka" and other battle droids is the resounding call, with a substantial but minority voice that says "fix our bugs" and "give us useful utility droids"
* Forum DE's start threads debating DE as crafting profession or hybrid profession.
* DE Forum polls show near 50-50 split between pure crafter and hybrid. Devs seem to perceive that a substantial DE player base doesn't want to be reborn as "the mechanical CH"; at that time, much hatred of pre-nerf CHs.
* New profession suggested, for the people who DO want to be the mechanical CH: Droid Handler.
* New threads started, DEs say they don't have the skill points to be both DE and DH. (When forum DEs said "give us droideka" they didn't mean some kind of abstract "us", they meant themselves plus the rest of the general player base. Not player base minus DEs.)
* Forum DEs suggest a cert system sprinkled among all the other elite combat profession. Devs say no.
* Word is generally made known that high level combat droids are ready to go, art, code and all.
* Impasse
* Forum DE polls on Droid Handler go from "against" to "overwhelmingly against". Here's when it went so wrong. I actually missed some of these polls because I was so sick of the debate, but what it came down to was, all the forum DEs thought they were voting between a Cert System or a Droid Commander system.
* Devs potentially don't realize this. Presumably, devs and TH try to puzzle out why DEs don't want combat droids anymore. They ask "well what DO you want". Forum DEs say "we're trying to tell you! combat droids for all!". Devs say "Okay, well, no, so tell us what else you want".
* Pure crafter DEs, though they had no reason to participate in the combat-exclusive threads, have a chance to once again answer "well what DO you want", and say "utility droids".
* Combat droids are scrapped, but Publish 7 has to have *something* in it
* Present time: scramble to compile utility droid ideas and try to get them code complete for Publish 8
------------------------------------
Regarding Publish 7, I'm not pleased about having to raise my prices, I'm not pleased about the stealth nerf of both my pre-pre-nerf probot and my post-nerf pre-nerf probot. I'm REALLY not pleased that my collection of very expensive "med uber" clusters (med, storage, food/chem) are useless. The rumors of the existing bugs make me not want to craft. I'm horrified at the complexity of the probot now -- to make them in factories requires so many more resources parts, and serialized factory runs, that I can't charge less than 30k for them (up from 20k), and that's the version without storage.
I was pleased that for one day I could make 100% quality items. I DO find it hilarious to see an LE Repair kicking sand in a syck's face.
However, I've *given away* three combat droids since the publish happened, and sold a grand total of none. (My business is on the order of four stores)
My adv R3 with 130-140 dmg did incap me, but only against a scout blaster and with no buffs, no specials, no self-heals, and almost all my HAM put into mind.
I don't pull out my bot in the wild to guard me, because he can't keep up with a vehicle. I rely on my weapon and my speeder to keep me safe on harvester runs. It wouldn't matter how strong the droid was, I'd never pull him out for guard duty if he can't keep up, gets lost at server borders, etc.
Weaponsmiths make money because you can change your weapon out for a better one in the middle of combat, you don't have to wait 15 seconds to pull out a gun in the wild, and it doesn't get lost at a server border. What's more, no one dares to nerf a weaponsmith. You try that, you end up having to make a hotfix to back out the crafting changes.
BUG: The repair module in my existing probot no longer works.
ANNOYANCE: Only DEs can use the "wound" kits, and only in camps/cities. I'm glad I didn't go crazy and try to sell the reconstruction kits -- didn't realize it required a cert. (I refunded the money to the one guy I hand-crafted one for)
That's it for me!
---------------------------------------------------
The DE forum is not the friendliest place. Even the devs don't want to post there. It often goes poorly when they do post. When the DE forum sees red, the first thing that happens is that seventy eight DEs change their sigs. Think of the DE forum as a pack of feral IT professionals...
(not necessarily feral through any fault of their own)
We're a bunch of snarling Dilberts with roast rat haunches speared on our sharpened pocket protectors, desperately trying to guard our miniscule piece of a tiny hunk of meat.
But to get back on topic, here's how this all went so horribly wrong, based on how I saw the debate evolve...and this, of course, is JUST MY OPINION, from a generally unpopular master DE, professional loner, and avid forum reader.
* Forum DE's hear about love from devs late last year, start threads talking about what should be added to DE
* "Give us droideka" and other battle droids is the resounding call, with a substantial but minority voice that says "fix our bugs" and "give us useful utility droids"
* Forum DE's start threads debating DE as crafting profession or hybrid profession.
* DE Forum polls show near 50-50 split between pure crafter and hybrid. Devs seem to perceive that a substantial DE player base doesn't want to be reborn as "the mechanical CH"; at that time, much hatred of pre-nerf CHs.
* New profession suggested, for the people who DO want to be the mechanical CH: Droid Handler.
* New threads started, DEs say they don't have the skill points to be both DE and DH. (When forum DEs said "give us droideka" they didn't mean some kind of abstract "us", they meant themselves plus the rest of the general player base. Not player base minus DEs.)
* Forum DEs suggest a cert system sprinkled among all the other elite combat profession. Devs say no.
* Word is generally made known that high level combat droids are ready to go, art, code and all.
* Impasse
* Forum DE polls on Droid Handler go from "against" to "overwhelmingly against". Here's when it went so wrong. I actually missed some of these polls because I was so sick of the debate, but what it came down to was, all the forum DEs thought they were voting between a Cert System or a Droid Commander system.
* Devs potentially don't realize this. Presumably, devs and TH try to puzzle out why DEs don't want combat droids anymore. They ask "well what DO you want". Forum DEs say "we're trying to tell you! combat droids for all!". Devs say "Okay, well, no, so tell us what else you want".
* Pure crafter DEs, though they had no reason to participate in the combat-exclusive threads, have a chance to once again answer "well what DO you want", and say "utility droids".
* Combat droids are scrapped, but Publish 7 has to have *something* in it
* Present time: scramble to compile utility droid ideas and try to get them code complete for Publish 8
------------------------------------
Regarding Publish 7, I'm not pleased about having to raise my prices, I'm not pleased about the stealth nerf of both my pre-pre-nerf probot and my post-nerf pre-nerf probot. I'm REALLY not pleased that my collection of very expensive "med uber" clusters (med, storage, food/chem) are useless. The rumors of the existing bugs make me not want to craft. I'm horrified at the complexity of the probot now -- to make them in factories requires so many more resources parts, and serialized factory runs, that I can't charge less than 30k for them (up from 20k), and that's the version without storage.
I was pleased that for one day I could make 100% quality items. I DO find it hilarious to see an LE Repair kicking sand in a syck's face.
However, I've *given away* three combat droids since the publish happened, and sold a grand total of none. (My business is on the order of four stores)
My adv R3 with 130-140 dmg did incap me, but only against a scout blaster and with no buffs, no specials, no self-heals, and almost all my HAM put into mind.
I don't pull out my bot in the wild to guard me, because he can't keep up with a vehicle. I rely on my weapon and my speeder to keep me safe on harvester runs. It wouldn't matter how strong the droid was, I'd never pull him out for guard duty if he can't keep up, gets lost at server borders, etc.
Weaponsmiths make money because you can change your weapon out for a better one in the middle of combat, you don't have to wait 15 seconds to pull out a gun in the wild, and it doesn't get lost at a server border. What's more, no one dares to nerf a weaponsmith. You try that, you end up having to make a hotfix to back out the crafting changes.
BUG: The repair module in my existing probot no longer works.
ANNOYANCE: Only DEs can use the "wound" kits, and only in camps/cities. I'm glad I didn't go crazy and try to sell the reconstruction kits -- didn't realize it required a cert. (I refunded the money to the one guy I hand-crafted one for)
That's it for me!
neshura
Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:04 pm
#128
p.s. the reason why so many people didn't want the 'Hybrid DH/DE' -- if the only new droids added are for DEs, there's no one to sell droids to but other DEs. Crafters like to be able to sell their stuff (fancy that). Strangely, the DE profession does actually have a few crafters in its ranks, since if a droid enthusiast is not a crafter type, s/he could take up rifleperson and just buy a probot.
Since hybrid DE/DH by itself is not popular enough, certs are back on the table.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=69111
(It says "hybrid" but the proposed design is effectively a certs idea)
Go check it out and lend your support or voice your disagreement.
Since hybrid DE/DH by itself is not popular enough, certs are back on the table.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=69111
(It says "hybrid" but the proposed design is effectively a certs idea)
Go check it out and lend your support or voice your disagreement.
Gribnitz
Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:53 pm
#129
neshura wrote:
We're a bunch of snarling Dilberts with roast rat haunches speared on our sharpened pocket protectors, desperately trying to guard our miniscule piece of a tiny hunk of meat.
Hehehe, sorry I just thought this was funny as heck.
Neshura is right on about how the whole combat droid fiasco came about.Most all DE's wanted everyone to have combat droids via certs, notsome new CH clone class. The problem is the Dev's never told us what our real choices were, so this is where we ended up.
leeds
Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:05 pm
#130
Shislkah wrote:This post is for players who want to know how the Droid Invasion publish ended up so weak where droids are concerned. The answer is, Forum Users. The Devs came to the DE forum in January with a plan involving REAL combat droids, including droideka. At that point I was a DE who was thinking of dropping it, and I was totally jazzed to see their plan. Then the most peculiar thing happened, DE's used the forums to collectively say "We are only interested in crafting, combat droids aren't part of the continuity." Over the course of a week or two some very perplexed Devs (who had been hearing "Give me droideka!" for months prior) listened to the "DE community" (or that 10% of it that makes their voice heard) and decided that the customer is always right. This publish, as far as droids, is exactly what the DE's asked for: no meaningful combat, no new droids, and a couple slots on a the Adv. BLL.Go to the DE forum and read the neat stuff posted from January through early February by the Devs, and read how players ground it to a halt in mid-development, resulting in this publish.Personal Note: No skill is worth being angry and bored, if it's not working for you, drop it and get a new skill that you enjoy - this will solve 90% of your in-game problems.
We never asked for the armor nerf. We were lead up and then sevearly let down. Starwars should be almost about machines and not about p*o*k*e*m*o*n........