Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Punchlist Response 6/24/04
Stryfermon
Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:18 am
#118
Very nice post with some good answers, also some good infoonTKA. 
Message Edited by Stryfermon on 06-25-2004 04:19 PM
Flantz
Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:18 am
#119
Is there any chance of a last-minute re-roll where us lowly padawans get some extra skills to play with the higher level powers for a day or two? 
Southwick
Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:48 am
#120
No its true. We all have incredibly usefull novice skills!
Lol BH has scout..whoooo!
Im trying to remember the last time i used a skill from that.
Commandoes have melee..thats gonna help with the flamethrower.
Dittos with smuggler.
The fact is that many elite classes have novice classes they dont use anymore. When was the last time I used body shot 2? I have torso shot..give me a break.
Get over it. That's just how it is for everyone. No reason to change it for one class.
Lol BH has scout..whoooo!
Im trying to remember the last time i used a skill from that.
Commandoes have melee..thats gonna help with the flamethrower.
Dittos with smuggler.
The fact is that many elite classes have novice classes they dont use anymore. When was the last time I used body shot 2? I have torso shot..give me a break.
Get over it. That's just how it is for everyone. No reason to change it for one class.
BlueHorizion
Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:58 am
#121
Southwick wrote:
No its true. We all have incredibly usefull novice skills!
Lol BH has scout..whoooo!
Im trying to remember the last time i used a skill from that.
Commandoes have melee..thats gonna help with the flamethrower.
Dittos with smuggler.
The fact is that many elite classes have novice classes they dont use anymore. When was the last time I used body shot 2? I have torso shot..give me a break.
Get over it. That's just how it is for everyone. No reason to change it for one class.
Okay, before you say "get over it" do understand what the past 100 Jedi have said on the issue.
The classes you are speaking of give skill mods that STACK as you go into the elite professions. They give ABILITIES that you can USE even as you master the elite profession. IE. They are still being USED.
THIS IS NOT SO WITH FS SKILLS.They DO NOT STACK when you become a Jedi. They become USELESS. It has been said over and over and over. You are comparing APPLES and ORANGES by compaing them to other classes.
STOP
ITneeds to be FIXED.
BlueHorizion
Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:00 am
#122
And I fully invite you to poke fun at my measly 13 posts because it has no bearing on my knowledge of the game.
Thanks.
ArsMoritoria
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:08 am
#123
All right, I'm quite tired of the bickering about Force Sensitive Skills vs. Novice profession skills. Out of all of the examples given, the only cogent argument I could find lies with the combat medics and BEs gaining nothing or next to nothing for some of their pre-requisites. (Ranged support which grants only a +4 ranged defense/+2 melee defense, and med crafting which gives no bonuses at all, respectively)
As far as BH not having any use for 75% of the scout lines that they took, this is not entirely true. At the very least, the BH is granted Terrain Negotiation, and honestly, the bonuses to harvesting and trapping aren't at all useless, as being a BH, a class capable of doing damage upwards of the 9-10k mark in PvE, can be wonderful at gathering loads of hide/meat/bone for docs and other classes who need the resources, which is good for player relations or money at the very least. Unfortunately, the need for tents has been made all but null with the changes to pulling things from our datapads, but it's not entirely bad when you have a group and need some healing, as it does provide a modicum of bonus. Arguing the uselessness of mastering and keeping marksman skills on the other hand is rather rediculous. 3 of the four full marksman trees provide bonuses to BH weapons, as well as the bonuses given by both the novice and the mastery, constitutes a 77.778% rate of contribution to your mods from the profession as per it's usable skill boxes vs overall boxes.
As stated by TH in his address in the thread simply titled Jedi Punchlist Response, the FS skill boxes actually did not contribute AT ALL to Jedi skills. (ie. the Melee speed, accuracy and defense mods do not add in any way whatsoever to the mods that the Jedi gains, thus they are 100% wasted SP fodder. At least that combat medic can still fall back on making the medic packs for his own use, seeing as how he is a master, even if none of his actual skill mods are useful for CM, same for the BE, and the BE could certainly use any method of healing it could get, for as cheap as possible, as it is one major pain in the butt to work up to a decent level for making any money.
This leaves your arguement that CMs gain basically nothing from Ranged Support, and honestly, this is not even a point of contention in my eyes, as I do not think that the craftiest double-thinking Dev for this game could even explain it, plausibly or otherwise. The +4 Ranged/+2 Melee defenses and the few shots they get basically do nothing for them at all, if this means that they have wasted 29 points that they cannot use, then perhaps there is an argument there somewhere, but it shouldn't be an argument as to why Jedi shouldn't get something for the 24 points that they have to spend. It should be an arguement only that the CMs should get something for their 29 points.
Further, if you assume a 2 master Jedi template with 4-4-0-0 in a third skill set to get to the Knight Trials, then you are talking about grinding out 36,460,000 JEDI XP to effectively reach the same master plateau as other classes. Seeing as how JXP is about equivalent to Combat XP, that would be in the neighborhood of 364,600,000 XP for any other combat class, compared to the 3,800,000 XP that is required to master most combat classes, though some are a bit less, such as commando. If you run this calculation through your Windows calculator, you will realize that jedi necessitate a hair less than 95.95 times the XP that every other elite class needs to reach the same respective point. As well, the Jedi "Novice" grind (AKA: FS Quests) takes significantly longer to fulfill than any other Novice grind for any other class in the game. Add to this the fact that a jedi will have to go into the FRS and climb the ladder a bit before they start getting good bonuses from it, which could be lost at any time unless vigilantly maintained, unless they wish to stay just below knight and be subject to being underbalanced against the nigh invulnerable FOTM Temploiters.
There is a lot to consider here, and I don't think that most players consider a lot of these things before they go shooting their mouths off in outrage over the "unbalanced" PC Jedi. IMHO, If a Jedi doesn't whipe the floor with my butt with one hand tied behind his back, me being a TKM/Doc or TKM/Rifle or any other number of things, I would probably quit the game in disgust. If there are any greater forces than the Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith in George Lucas' Star Wars Universe, which is notably only the movies, as by his definition they are they only thing considered "canon," then they, too, would likely have to endure the grueling amount of work required of the Jedi and I would consider it fair, but for a character that requires little more than 24-48 hours of work to achieve, there should not be any comparison. Go ahead and hurl your insults all you wish, and I will respond, not in kind, but with reason. Good day to you and all who read this, and if you have something constructive to say, as many do, I would love to hear it. If you simply have flames, I will certainly read those, too.
As far as BH not having any use for 75% of the scout lines that they took, this is not entirely true. At the very least, the BH is granted Terrain Negotiation, and honestly, the bonuses to harvesting and trapping aren't at all useless, as being a BH, a class capable of doing damage upwards of the 9-10k mark in PvE, can be wonderful at gathering loads of hide/meat/bone for docs and other classes who need the resources, which is good for player relations or money at the very least. Unfortunately, the need for tents has been made all but null with the changes to pulling things from our datapads, but it's not entirely bad when you have a group and need some healing, as it does provide a modicum of bonus. Arguing the uselessness of mastering and keeping marksman skills on the other hand is rather rediculous. 3 of the four full marksman trees provide bonuses to BH weapons, as well as the bonuses given by both the novice and the mastery, constitutes a 77.778% rate of contribution to your mods from the profession as per it's usable skill boxes vs overall boxes.
As stated by TH in his address in the thread simply titled Jedi Punchlist Response, the FS skill boxes actually did not contribute AT ALL to Jedi skills. (ie. the Melee speed, accuracy and defense mods do not add in any way whatsoever to the mods that the Jedi gains, thus they are 100% wasted SP fodder. At least that combat medic can still fall back on making the medic packs for his own use, seeing as how he is a master, even if none of his actual skill mods are useful for CM, same for the BE, and the BE could certainly use any method of healing it could get, for as cheap as possible, as it is one major pain in the butt to work up to a decent level for making any money.
This leaves your arguement that CMs gain basically nothing from Ranged Support, and honestly, this is not even a point of contention in my eyes, as I do not think that the craftiest double-thinking Dev for this game could even explain it, plausibly or otherwise. The +4 Ranged/+2 Melee defenses and the few shots they get basically do nothing for them at all, if this means that they have wasted 29 points that they cannot use, then perhaps there is an argument there somewhere, but it shouldn't be an argument as to why Jedi shouldn't get something for the 24 points that they have to spend. It should be an arguement only that the CMs should get something for their 29 points.
Further, if you assume a 2 master Jedi template with 4-4-0-0 in a third skill set to get to the Knight Trials, then you are talking about grinding out 36,460,000 JEDI XP to effectively reach the same master plateau as other classes. Seeing as how JXP is about equivalent to Combat XP, that would be in the neighborhood of 364,600,000 XP for any other combat class, compared to the 3,800,000 XP that is required to master most combat classes, though some are a bit less, such as commando. If you run this calculation through your Windows calculator, you will realize that jedi necessitate a hair less than 95.95 times the XP that every other elite class needs to reach the same respective point. As well, the Jedi "Novice" grind (AKA: FS Quests) takes significantly longer to fulfill than any other Novice grind for any other class in the game. Add to this the fact that a jedi will have to go into the FRS and climb the ladder a bit before they start getting good bonuses from it, which could be lost at any time unless vigilantly maintained, unless they wish to stay just below knight and be subject to being underbalanced against the nigh invulnerable FOTM Temploiters.
There is a lot to consider here, and I don't think that most players consider a lot of these things before they go shooting their mouths off in outrage over the "unbalanced" PC Jedi. IMHO, If a Jedi doesn't whipe the floor with my butt with one hand tied behind his back, me being a TKM/Doc or TKM/Rifle or any other number of things, I would probably quit the game in disgust. If there are any greater forces than the Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith in George Lucas' Star Wars Universe, which is notably only the movies, as by his definition they are they only thing considered "canon," then they, too, would likely have to endure the grueling amount of work required of the Jedi and I would consider it fair, but for a character that requires little more than 24-48 hours of work to achieve, there should not be any comparison. Go ahead and hurl your insults all you wish, and I will respond, not in kind, but with reason. Good day to you and all who read this, and if you have something constructive to say, as many do, I would love to hear it. If you simply have flames, I will certainly read those, too.
namor4q
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:13 am
#124
I don't know how many of you have looked at the FS boxes but none of them give any specials like torso shot, just modifiers to skills. I am pretty sure that BH's still utilize the +60 to carbine accuracy, +30 to pistol speed, etc that master marksman grants them, this will hold true to all classes. TH is the one who compared it to a novice profession so I am assuming that has been the argument for not giving back the points.
John_DuMar
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:35 am
#125
Thunderheart what about resources like culsion gas which hasn't spawn on the eclipse server in quite a while. Those of us who need it would be stranded without it.
Gaenjin
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:40 am
#126
Thunderheart wrote:
Lastly, in the last Punchlist notes when asked about not having low melee defenses, I made a comment:
Thundernerf wrote:
Just can't pick on someone when they beat you to it themselves. Seriously tho, long, detailed post like this, yet you take the time to toss in a humorous jab at yourself. Can't help but admire the humor.
Keldarin wrote:
All converted Jedi automatically get to choose 6 of the Force Sensitive skill lines (24 skills boxes) and none of those skills are counted in the conversion process.
Thanks for linking to that post, the aboveis the answerto my largest complaint against the Conversion system. I must have missed that post in all the noise on Dev Tracker about the Fan Fest. (which I wasn't able to attend anyway)
Cloudgatherer
Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:19 am
#127
Color crystals should be craftable.
Please justify the need to be a loot monkey just to pick the color on my saber. I'd LOVE to see you have a good argument for that.
Loot drop for powering up a saber? Fine. For an aesthetic appearance? You do know how dumb that sounds right?
The rest of the 'responses' are just funny. The melee defense one in particular. 4444 guardians had roughly 60 toughness and 70% light armor, and we were ALWAYS hit by a melee attack. Now, a Master LS will only have 55 toughness, and who knows what robes are doing, and will STILL be always hit (unless Defense tree is taken). If I want 'defenses' I have to give up even more things (already losing ALOT).
I doubt anyone will read this (or comprehend), but my suggestion would be to put something in each brach of the LS tree for defenses. Otherwise, the Master LS box really costs 41 points, instead of 1 point, as a Jedi can only use one saber at a time, thereby wasting 40 points (for the other 2 saber styles) just to have the 'option' of using a different saber (with a 3 second switch time in battle).
More or less, the new system blows. I'll be doing another long, thought-out post like the one currently in my signature after it goes live. It will make you look really bad for not listening to Jedi up front. That's too bad, as it looks like at least one person over there knows how to approach a revamp.
Please justify the need to be a loot monkey just to pick the color on my saber. I'd LOVE to see you have a good argument for that.
Loot drop for powering up a saber? Fine. For an aesthetic appearance? You do know how dumb that sounds right?
The rest of the 'responses' are just funny. The melee defense one in particular. 4444 guardians had roughly 60 toughness and 70% light armor, and we were ALWAYS hit by a melee attack. Now, a Master LS will only have 55 toughness, and who knows what robes are doing, and will STILL be always hit (unless Defense tree is taken). If I want 'defenses' I have to give up even more things (already losing ALOT).
I doubt anyone will read this (or comprehend), but my suggestion would be to put something in each brach of the LS tree for defenses. Otherwise, the Master LS box really costs 41 points, instead of 1 point, as a Jedi can only use one saber at a time, thereby wasting 40 points (for the other 2 saber styles) just to have the 'option' of using a different saber (with a 3 second switch time in battle).
More or less, the new system blows. I'll be doing another long, thought-out post like the one currently in my signature after it goes live. It will make you look really bad for not listening to Jedi up front. That's too bad, as it looks like at least one person over there knows how to approach a revamp.
AuleyDavyds
Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:31 am
#128
Did anyone else notice TH quoting himself in the following way:
Thunderheart wrote:
Thundernerf wrote:
This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.
The name there is, um, interesting....Thundernerf...hehe...silly TH
RabidEwok2
Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:34 am
#129
I'm quite displeased with how robes are currently implemented. The first thing I'm doing on tuesday is to carve up rebels to get enough points to join the empire. From then I'll roleplay a dark jedi.
But please do it so that at least I don't have to wear a *white* robe until I join the force ranking (and get a .. brown).
It would be so much better if you scrapped the entire robe thing on test, gave the robe scematics to tailors (with certs for the ranking robes) and then simply prevented jedi from wearing armor. Problem solved -- all jedi could dress as they pleased and tailors would get more work to do.
eRAZORNew
Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:01 pm
#130
AntiXryst wrote:Awesome as always TH!Any word on if right before the Publish you can release the conversion numbers (ie the number of skill points we get based on current skills) in a tree or grid format like we have seen floating about the Jedi boards?
Damn brownnosers. Can you tell me what's good about a big excuse list?