Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-8: Combat Roles; Marksman
In a galaxy far, far away, it is a time of civil war. The Empire has taken control over the galaxy and attempted to build the ultimate battle station to enforce the will of the Emperor. The rebellion destroyed the fearsome Death Star and this galactic conflict is at its peak.
In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and they all depend on each other for success. Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.
In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.
Some basic balance considerations are:
* Ranged and Melee Professions
In SWG, a key thing to consider about each profession and its role in combat is that there are many ranged combat classes and many melee combat classes. Each ranged combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “ranged” abilities that helps distinguish them from other ranged combat professions, and likewise, each melee combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “tanking” or melee abilities that helps distinguish them from other melee professions.
* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
There are two basic set of combat skills any profession should have. The first are Redundant Abilities. These are abilities that either most or all combat professions posses, in other words, “everyman combat skills”. The second set of combat skills a profession should posses are Unique Abilities. Unique abilities are the abilities that give a profession its unique feel in combat. In other words, it defines the profession and its role in combat.
* Game Space
Another basic concept to keep in mind when thinking about combat professions and their role in combat is Game Space. The next big consideration for assessing combat abilities is where the combat takes place. There are indoor spaces and outdoors spaces. Indoor spaces would be dungeons, bases and the like and outdoor spaces would be wilderness and/or city spaces.
* PvP and PvE
In SWG, players can choose between PvE and PvP playstyles and even shift back and forth to play in elements of both. PvE is “Player versus Environment” and basically deals with fighting computer controlled enemies in combat. PvP is “Player versus Player” and is real players fighting real players and tends to be very tricky because anytime something in game is at stake (like faction equipment, etc), it is important to keep things fair and balanced, but also fun.
* Profession Lifespan
What is the profession’s role in its novice state and how should the skill progress over the course of a player’s time investment in the profession? At all times any given profession should have a distinct role and value in combat. As a player progresses from Novice to Master, the profession should reflect something special about the profession and also be fun to play.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theMarksmanrole in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
What defines theMarksmanrole in combat?
Basic all-purpose combat from "safe" distance. The Marksman's role is the ability to strike first from safety, and to change targets easily.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Basic ranged attacks and defensive postures. They do not need a lot of specials -- or rather their specials should focus on defense against ranged attacks, with an occasional targeted shot advantage when they are in a good posture. They should be able to move around and do some very basic poor shooting and good defense, or take on a good posture and perform specials. They should not be able to run and attack effectively (i.e. no offensive specials while moving).
What offensive abilities?
Their attacks should set the standard by which others are judged. They should only be able to use special attacks when kneeling or prone, or perhaps with particular weapons (e.g. carbines).
What defensive abilities?
Marksmen should have decent defenses against other ranged attackers. Their defenses and dodges should be posture-dependent -- so a prone marksman is hard to hit but vulnerable to melee, whilea running marksman has good dodging ability and poor accuracy.
What unique abilities?
Their special abilities should be mainly movement andposture related. Pistol-users can tumble around, carbiners drop opponents down, and riflemen getdeadly shots while prone.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Quick target acquisition. While a brawler-type must run over to each opponent to fight, the Marksman can change opponents every shot if they want to. A group of Marksmen can all concentrate fire on one opponent and then another, or coordinate their actions to deadly effect (e.g. carbiner knocks opponent down, rifleman takes the kill shot).
How could/should they interact with other professions?
As with all combatants they need good gear from crafters, and occasional healing. In hostile encounters the marksman should use movement and range to her benefit over a short-range figher.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Marksmen are vulnerable to melee fighters. While mobile, the marksman shoots poorly, but while in a good offensive posture, a brawler can close ground and quickly defeat the marksman. Thus they need their own melee allies to protect them. at the same time, while the brawlers are busy tanking as many opponents as possible, the marksmen have the important role of ganging up on one opponent at a time to cut the numbers down quickly.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Marksmen should be the "standard" combatant. Their unique purpose is to concentrate firepower where it is needed from moment to moment.
Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?
Marksmen should be especially vulnerable to melee attacks -- especially when they are in a kneeling or prone posture. They should be very poor at short-range combat. In a one-on-one fight between Marksman and Brawler, the Marksman should win if he keeps moving and running, but the Brawler should win if the Marksman sits still.
one quick thought..... i rarely see people attacking from kneeling or prone positions.... i myself rarely use them because i have tried the positions and they dont see usefull enough for me to want to put myself in a more vulnerable position. i can get better defense by running around while i shoot, and the accuracy bonus of being prone or kneeling isnt big enough to be of interest tome.
What would help is that there should be more distance bonuses for being in kneeling or prone position.... some ideas...
1. improve npc AI and change radar..... when people are in prone, an npc ai would have to look harder to find that person before attacking...... player characters would see the person on radar but as a faded dot (harder to see especially in a big battle when u are not paying attention) or make it so that u cant see a prone person on radar until u get much closer. I think something like that should apply to anyone in prone, not just rifleman or marksman, but perhaps rifles and marksman could get improved stealth.
2. defense vs. accuracy...... i think in kneeling mode you should get a small accuracy bonus but a big defense bonus... u are more easily able to roll around while kneeling. In prone mode you should get a big accuracy bonus, because u can aim better when u are not holding the entire weight of the gun, but not as big a defense bonus because its harder to dodge and move around while prone.
those are just my specific ideas... in general i think just providing more reasons or more distinction for going prone or going kneeling would improve marksman/ranged combat.
-duck
a quick addition to my #1 point above......
the ability to hide in the terrain while prone should also depend on the surroundings.....
1. night provides better stealth vs. day which does not.
2. if there are many trees or shrubs or tall grass(think nabooswamps or yavin jungles)around the person in prone mode, they are harder to detect than ifthe personwere an open, dry plain (think tatooine).
another quick point, somewhat seperate, point is this.... radar makes things too easy sometimes.... perhaps the dev's could review the purpose of radar..... here are a few ideas just to toss them out...
1. make radar "factional"...... u can see allies on radar (rebels if u are rebel, imperials if u are imperial).... but cannot see enemy factioned or nuteral factioned players until u get close enough to them, or unlessa scout or ranger or SL uses a "tracking" or "spot" skill that allows other people in the group to see them from far away.
2. make radar optimized for the front and sides... and add a shorter range to the behind. I've played many many games... the games i enjoyed the most were ones where i was always watching my back for my own saftey for for the safety of the group/team..... when a game has a radar that is all-seeing..... i dont have the feeling of needing to watch my back... the thing i find myself doing all the time now is just watching radar, instead of watching the nice graphics and terrain in this game.. not only does it defocus my attention on the cool graphics... but it ruins my sense of fear and fear is what often makes combat fun.
-duck
another thing to improve marksman fun....
make terrain "opaque", that is you cannot shoot through hills. This was on TC a month or so ago but got removed (i heard because of an exploit and deadlines), but having opaque terrain would really be a huge boon for marksman, as well as melee'rs. This would also give grenades more usefullness (other than splash damage) because u could throw grenades over hills or over walls at opponents that you cant shoot at because they are taking cover. And speaking of cover... having opaque terrain would add the word "cover" back into the SWG Field Tactic Dictionary. What do see most people doing in the star wars movies when in a battle? they take cover behind walls, objects, terrain.
TAB-targetting is another thing that ruins combat immersion (though i understand at the benefit of easier to play, but i think there is room for balance...)...
I find myself TAB, TAB,TABing all the time now and its not that fun compared to if i could actually recon the area and try to find an enemy who is hiding. Right now that is not possible in this game but i think it should be... change things to the following....
1. Opaque terrain (as i said above).
2. TAB only aquires new targets if there is a current Line Of Sight to that target, i.e. if you cant see the opponent on your screen from where you are, then you cant target it.
3. Number 2 would give a much better purpose for radar... if you cant use TAB-targeting to find a nearby enemy, then you would fall back to checking your radar to get a rough idea of where your opponent is. (see my radar ideas..... but i am leaning more towards removing the factional radar idea and instead using the Forward-Good/Read-Poor idea of radar, to encourage watching your back).
4. If the player does have a LOS towards his target, make tabbing dependant on the stealth status (see my above post). In other words if the opponent is prone in thick grass and not easily seen as rendered on the player's screen then thatopponent would not be TAB-Targetable until the player gets closer to the opponent.
if those changes went into the game, the following very fun and very adrenaline pumping scenario could happen....
imagine anchorhead... lots of rebels busy with their business of buying, selling, killing..... the overts cant depend on tab-targetting or radar-waiting all from the bridge and shuttleport anymore... if they are concerned for the city's safty, they go on patrol around the town (like a real soldier would, instead of camping the radar or tab-key). However, theres been an imperial PC spy in anchoread waiting for a vulnerability..... the rebels get tired of patrolling the city so they head into the cantina to chill...... the spy sends word.... the nearby imperal attack team slowly moves in on the north hill.... they are in prone mode, crawling towards the crest of the hill..... nobody can see them on radar (because of prone stealth and they are faded a bit on the RADAR (see my radar post above)) and nobody can TAB-target them because they are out of site..... they are in prone and very vulnerable if caught... they continue to cautiosly crawl towards the crest, still not seen until they finally reach the crest..... an overtrebel then casually comes out of the cantina and procedes to check out a mission terminal but after a moment he realizes there are imperial snipers on the north hill but it is too late... they fire on him and he's down to half health and the medium and close range attackers procede into the city. ....... But wait.... there were other rebels at the regular mission termainsl in the north-east side of anchorhead but the raiding imperials didnt pay attention to the radar and didnt know they were there, neither did the rebels know of the imperials..... they were TAB-Targetting all over the place (because they couldnt without LOS) so it was a suprise to both of them.... the rebels from the north-east then counter the imperial close range troops and the battle continues. ..... With LOS depending TAB-Targetting...... some other hidden troops could rush the back way running passed the walls but the rebels would not be able to target them and know 100% exactly where they are at every moment... instead the rebels much use radar to give them a rough idea but then some others might be in prone and hiding near rocks for stealth bonuses.
The battle goes on..... bottom line.... combat would be much more fun if it wasnt babied, watered-down and handed to everybodyon a silver platter.... people would need to be more aware and *think* instead of relying on Tab-Targeting or radar.
-duck
(addition to my #2 point on the tabbing post)
... if an opponent is already targetted but runs out of a persons LOS... it would remain targetted, it would not become un-targetted. This would allow for throwing grenades over walls or over hills at opponents you already have targetted (already have a rough idea of where they are even though out of the players LOS).
I've been a marksman and I honestly didn't feel there was anything wrong with it. It served me very well. As a starter profession its effectiveness has a natural limit. The high damage ofovershot eventually becomes nothing compared to theHAM of the higher end game mobs. But I cite this as an example of the aforementionedlimits of a starter profession, not as a thing that needs addressing.
My role seemed clear - a general ability to attack from all ranges. I could open up with rifle and switch to pistol as the gap closed.
I really like the above idea that the dot on the radar should fade if the player goes prone. It could have a slight fade if the player goes to kneeling.
The radar does tend to undermine the class roles, and the use of good tactics, at least in PvP.
Because this is technically more a marksman issue than rifleman I'll post it here.
When are the rifles getting fixed? Tuskens should be kinetic, spraystick should be acid, I think the sg is still cold but I haven't seen one on a vendor in so long I couldn't tell you if it is or isn't in need of a fix. Will this get some love in the upcoming mega-nerf powerup patch or will it get swept under the rug?
What defines theMarksmanrole in combat?
The marksman in my mind is someone who is very accurate and very fast with a gun, whether it is pistol, rifle, carbine, etc.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
very high accuracy and speed (especially with pistol) relative to all clases except the ones that focus on a specific weapon (carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman)
What offensive abilities?
accuracy, accuracy, accuracy.
What defensive abilities?
They can shoot really fast. (smile). I don't see a gun wielder as having a really extra defensive capability OTHER than using his guns. One of the local (to me) shooters at the range I frequent can go from in holster, to 2 rounds in the center of the bullseye in .62 seconds. Speed and accuracy. Admittedly the preternatural speed and accuracy is something that can be focused by the elite professions, but even at marksman you should get it. I don't agree that as markman I should get extra defenses to ranged -defense- that aren't basically directly related to returning fire, or anticipating the shot (i.e. gunfighter of the old west).
Though, I think that a new elite class, the sniper, could be brought in. That class could have ranged defense and plusses to hiding when in position at range, along with greatly improved accuracy and power of shot.
What unique abilities?
Maybe the chance to get a return shot off BEFORE the other combatant, potentially derailing their attack. This would also be assumed to work better in the elite classes.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Speed and accuracy.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
You want something shot? Call the marksman
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The marksman should not get bonuses to defense just by having a gun (other than return shot mentioned above), so they would need some type of partner to defend them if they felt the need.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
You want something shot? call the marksman.
Pistol close range, very accurate, but damage drops off outside of 25m (like real pistols)
Carbines lower damage and accuracy, but LOTS of shots so who cares, accuracy up close really drops. and damage is nothing at long range (not to mention accuracy)
Rifles inside 40m should have huge range penalties, but they are slow to reload, but they pack one hell of a punch and can shoot from a 100m away (game terms - not real life!)
this would immediately balance the classes a lot more and introduce far more tactics to SWG.