Development Cycle Archive
Thread: In Concept 1-2: Combat Roles; Brawler
In a galaxy far, far away, it is a time of civil war. The Empire has taken control over the galaxy and attempted to build the ultimate battle station to enforce the will of the Emperor. The rebellion destroyed the fearsome Death Star and this galactic conflict is at its peak.
In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and they all depend on each other for success. Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.
In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.
Some basic balance considerations are:
* Ranged and Melee Professions
In SWG, a key thing to consider about each profession and its role in combat is that there are many ranged combat classes and many melee combat classes. Each ranged combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “ranged” abilities that helps distinguish them from other ranged combat professions, and likewise, each melee combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “tanking” or melee abilities that helps distinguish them from other melee professions.
* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
There are two basic set of combat skills any profession should have. The first are Redundant Abilities. These are abilities that either most or all combat professions posses, in other words, “everyman combat skills”. The second set of combat skills a profession should posses are Unique Abilities. Unique abilities are the abilities that give a profession its unique feel in combat. In other words, it defines the profession and its role in combat.
* Game Space
Another basic concept to keep in mind when thinking about combat professions and their role in combat is Game Space. The next big consideration for assessing combat abilities is where the combat takes place. There are indoor spaces and outdoors spaces. Indoor spaces would be dungeons, bases and the like and outdoor spaces would be wilderness and/or city spaces.
* PvP and PvE
In SWG, players can choose between PvE and PvP playstyles and even shift back and forth to play in elements of both. PvE is “Player versus Environment” and basically deals with fighting computer controlled enemies in combat. PvP is “Player versus Player” and is real players fighting real players and tends to be very tricky because anytime something in game is at stake (like faction equipment, etc), it is important to keep things fair and balanced, but also fun.
* Profession Lifespan
What is the profession’s role in its novice state and how should the skill progress over the course of a player’s time investment in the profession? At all times any given profession should have a distinct role and value in combat. As a player progresses from Novice to Master, the profession should reflect something special about the profession and also be fun to play.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theBrawlerrole in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
What defines theBrawlerrole in combat?
-The ability to cause significant damage to an opponent at close range.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
-The Brawler should be fast, strong, and reflexive. The ability to make combat up-close, hard-hitting, and dirty.
What offensive abilities?
-Brawlers should be able to use specials that stun (we have that), disorient (we have that), and cripple (we don't have that). I envision a special that basically targets an opponent's weak point (his/her "Shatterpoint") and is a one-time per battle use that might or might-not hit. If it does, then the opponent suffers Wound damage that results in him/her A.) Losing speed B.) Losing combat effectiveness, such as lower damage outputC.) Losing modifiers (such as Pistol Accuracy for Marksman and Pistoleers), albeit only temporarily.
What defensive abilities?
-Brawlers should be able to have specials that allow them to dodge or absorb similar melee attacks (melee mitigation accomplishes this somewhat), dodge ranged attacks (Center of Being seems to only work on a few professions), and block melee attacks (as far as I know, block is not working for anyone). I see Brawlers having a defensive ability that basically allows them to close in on a target as quickly as possible, in order to take him down. Kiting seems to still be a big issue.
What unique abilities?
-Brawlers should be able to grapple, bodyslam, trip, or throw their opponents. It comes with the nature of the business. Perhaps the ability to disarm an opponent?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
-The ability to absorb a significant amount of damage to allow other group members time to put themselves in position to make use of their specials.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
-Brawlers should be able to perform a unique role for Entertainers, Chefs, and the like. I think a cool idea would be to allow Brawlers to be signed on as bodyguards or as bouncers. I think a bouncer at a Tavern or Cantina would be badass. Think about it, perhaps a bouncer could be used to attack PCs would cause trouble if they have permission from the cantina Chef or NPC bartender.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
-Brawlers should depend on ranged characters. In a galaxy full of guns, blasters, and lightsabers, Brawlers should not be immune to the high-tech weaponry of the day. In fact, I think ranged professions should be able to cause more damage to Brawlers in exchange for an ability for Brawlers to negate kiting. It makes common sense.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
-Brawlers should have the ability to sneak up on their targets in the middle of battle. Think about it, when laser bolts are flying all around, are you really worried about some guy punching, stabbing, or hitting you from up close?
What defines theBrawlerrole in combat?
Brawlers are a basic profession, they should be the lead in to the advanced melee professions and give the player a feel for that style of combat early on. Basic level professions should have minimal roles in greater conflict due to the fact they have far less advanced skills.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The Brawler should have the basic combat elements of the advanced professions they represent on a much lower level. Brawler is merely a stepping stone to greater combat ability.
What offensive abilities?
again low level abilities proper for a starter profession, some basic level specials.
What defensive abilities?
again low level abilities proper for a starter profession, some basic level specials
What unique abilities?
None, except at Master, all master boxes should contain a properly weighted enticement that would make players have to consider actually getting the master skill box they might other wise ignore to conserve skill points. The Master level brawler skill should be significantly benifical to equal one of the mid level advanced skills in terms of useful and effectiveness, or perhaps skill mods that stack with elite profession skill mods making attaining master brawler a worth while investment of skill points.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The benifit of master brawler should be to further augment an advanced profession, all basic professions alone should be in the basic levels of conflict as far as ability. Advanced PvP battles and PvE content should be for those with advanced skills.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Mastering basic professions should directly relate to a noticble improvement of the advanced professions
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Mastering basic professions should directly relate to a noticble improvement of the advanced professions
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
minimal alone as they are a basic profession.
What defines theBrawlerrole in combat?
The Brawler's job is to defeat ranged combatants and block melee opponents from doing the same to the brawler's friends. For a Brawler who pursues all four paths of skill, the melee diversity should allow the Brawler to overcome any non-melee combatant that they can close with.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The ability to defend themselves against melee attacks, and the ability to deal heavy damage at short range.
What offensive abilities?
Because they must get close to their opponent to fight effectively, Brawlers should generally do a bit more damage than their ranged equivalents. They should have a wider variety of special attacks (knockdowns, etc.) that reflect their abliity to attack in controlled manner.
What defensive abilities?
They should be the defense masters of the novice-level professions. While they should be vulnerable to ranged attacks at range, they should be almost untouchable at short range by those same people. Against another Brawler, their defense might be just a bit better than their offense -- thus two Brawlers take a long time to defeat each other. They should also have some defenses against the same special attacks that they can dish out.
What unique abilities?
They should have the most specials. Knockdown, stun, disarm, and so on should all be part of the diverse Brawler's repertoire.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Brawlers should be the "defensive linemen" of a group combat. They should split up and engage as many different targets as possible, leaving their comrades to focus fire on one at a time. If the Brawlers get close to a ranged fighter, they should achieve quick victory. This gives an all-Brawler group apowerful edge over an all-Marksman group once the Brawlers get close.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Brawlers generally need a lot of healing. As the group's tanks they will be accepting the greatest amount of damage. And of course they need the best armor and weapons they can acquire.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Brawlers in a group need to split their attention to keep as many enemies occupied as possible. If they group up on one opponent, the other enemies may go after the Brawler's weaker friends and quickly defeat them. So the Brawler needs the ranged fighters to concentrate firepower on one target at a time to make the kills.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
All-occasion damage absorbers. Each branch of the Brawler skill tree should learn defenses against a unique type of attack, so that those who dabble have vulnerabilities compared to the Master Brawler.
Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?
Short range is their flaw. They must close distance in order to defeat a ranged attacker. The ranged fighters should be able to kite or otherwise avoid the brawler. Pole-Arms should help to overcome this flaw a bit (a trip special that stops someone from running for a moment might allow the brawler to finally close the gap). When they are stunned or trapped or otherwise unable to close distance, they are especially vulnerable.
Sorry to butt in. Smugglers didn't get their own thread, and this seems to be the appreopriate one.
We'd would very much like to either:
a) lose the unarmed brawling prerequisite or...
b) gain some unarmed stuff with smuggler, so it's not just a huge skillpoint sink that we never use unless going TK/commando also.
Thanks for your tolerance, and good luck with the whole brawling thing.
Someone who does the Master Brawler skill tree should be in the B range slightly above normal. Good defense against all types of attacks under 15-20 meters.
When someone does Master Brawler and uses it as a base for one of the advanced melee skills they should have superior defense and offense and be nothing but extremely deadly at close range. Mastering brawler should be like finishing undergrad studies with honors as opposed to just finishing before moving on to grad school.
Also I agree with the smugglers either add specials to the smuggler skill tree or remove the requirement of unarmed 1 thru 4. No one uses it offensively but I do understand it does give a smuggler defensive strength as it stands now.
Master Brawlers should be the ones people don't want to fight because to their toughness. However the strongest guy in the world isn't gonna stand up to a 357 magnun or an electric stun tayzer attack. But for competitive reasons there would have to be an abridged time of knockdown for stun or it's game over. No one is getting up from a stun gun in less than 20 30 minutes in real life. But we don't expect that here.
Master Brawlers should have the fastest speed in melee attacks of any first level profession. Of course when going against someone with an advanced melee skill who is also a Master Brawler they should have their A$$ handed to them on a platter.
The kiting issue is tough. The ranged guys should be weaker in melee combat so they have no choice but to run. the lunge2 works fine for knocking them dowm and giving you a chance of closing the range and taking care of business but it doesn't always work when you are trying to run and attack at the same time. I have two ideas about this.
1. Line of sight. I know programing wise this is a tough one. But when a gunfighter can shoot you thru walls and mountains you have no choice but to run at them and close the range. They aree not going to stand there so they run. If there were ture line of sight rules it would allow charactors to do what anyone would do when you are fighting bare handed against someone with a gun. Use stealth and guile and change of direction and supprize to close the range and put things on even terms. You have to lose the target and re aquire the target not have the targeting box follow the target as it moves around buildings and such. It's like once a pistoleer is locked on to you they have radar or something. Lock on and fire away. If I run around a building it follows me you know what side I am coming from. If there were more realistic line of sight model it would allow more stategy in fights. Make interiors and closed spaces owned by melee types. We could then use the closed space to manipulate our opponet into our clutches and beat him down.
2. Allow shirkens or some other thrown weapon to be earned in the Brawler skill tree. Something around 15 to 20 meters as a way to stun or pause the opponent so they can't just keep running away and shooting at you. Similarly there is nothing dumber than watching some of my friends who are Master Riflemen doing these dungeons with a rifle ? Anybody who has even been in close combat will tell you the last thing you want is a sniper rifle in a close fight. This is where i think you should add a shotgun to the rifleman class just for close encounters. I am trying a anticipate the whining. YOu gave them this or that and we got nothing. So if the brawlers can have a thrown weapon to have a minimal ranged ability counter it with the shotgun for the riflemen. Carbineers and pistoleers should not need this as pistols are close range weapons and there are definetly close range automatic waepons you could make for the carbineers.
I must say though that of all the classes in the game the Brawler and the TKA are the ones that work. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Your time is spent more wisely fixing the DE's and Chef's and Carbineers and Bounty Hunters and Pistoleers and Pikemen and Smugglers and well you get the idea. They are the ones who need the work.
Zardoz
Thunderheart wrote:
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theBrawlerrole in combat?
I disagree that Brawler is a NOVICE profession per se and as such should be relegated to "novice" capabilities. Like anything in this game, Master Brawler is an investment in skill points and that investment should yield a payoff.
What defines a brawler to me, is what I called "street smarts". They have some uncanny extra abilities that they have picked up that separates themselves for the melee masters. This is kind of how it is now, except their current skills are only an extention of the existing skills. Some unique skills would greatly affect the flavor of the profession. So, I don't see Brawler as a unique profession per se, but an augmentation to existing professions because of experience (i.e. a few extra tricks up their sleeves).
What basic combat elements should they possess?
To me, the brawler would be a combination of offensive/defensive capabilities that don't extend the capabilities of a single weapon. I really see the brawler as an offensive dirty fighter, while the smuggler being a defensive dirty fighter. In this regard, the current brawler implementation is not too far off except it is more DEFENSIVE oriented and could use more of an OFFENSIVE boost.
What offensive abilities?
A usable berserk skill.
A crushing blow capability that can inflict huge permanent or temporary damageto a random pool (on a timer).
What defensive abilities?
A pvp taunt for crowd control and the ability to the resist the taunts of others (some concentrate capability).
A root capability against kiters (not just a delay) on a timer. Call this a hamsting capability.
What unique abilities?
A mini burst run capability to close gap on kiters. Other combat professions want this skill but why not make them invest in Master Brawler to get it.
A rally capability similar to squad leader, in that their valiant efforts in combat can inspire and temporarily boost the stats of group members.
Personally, I think the TKA med line should be moved to master brawler, with bonuses to these skills at the top of EACH master profession. So, you get basic meditation at novice brawler, but you don't the meat and potato skills like power boost, cures, force of will etc. until master. Upon mastering a melee weapon, you get enhancements to these capabilities.
Duel wielding weapons (with a penalty) would be very useful if only to avoid having to unequip weapons to perform certain moves. For example, my current character is a master fencer, with 4/3/0/4 in tka. It is a pain in the backside to unequip my fencer weapon just to perform a stun or a head hit. I would RATHER that we have the capability to perform EITHER professional moves by equiping multiple weapons (1 handed only) and take a penalty on the off-hand than have to invest the time to unequip, perform move, then re-equip which eats up valuable time in a fight.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
A brawler is all about disruption and crowd control. They delay actions, strike fear into opponets, inspire comrads, root kiters, distract players from key targets, and can focus their attacks without being ping-ponged between other attackers. In a way they are "up close" squad leaders.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
I see brawlers as a support class in that they bring an additional set of crowd control and disruption skills to the table that help take down the tough targets.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Disruption and crowd control.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Disruption and crowd control.
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
The Brawlers fulfill the traditional tank role in combat. They deal heavy damage up close in exchange for being the sole or primary damage target themselves. They are disadvantaged when combat is initiated at range. If they cannot make up the distance, they will be defeated.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
More or less what they have now. The ability to target any of the actions pools, plus some lower state effects in the unarmed tree. This is a good setup. This is a starting profession and well balanced. They should also possess fighting stances. They should have the ability to adopt an aggressive fighting stance for hitting harder in exchange for being hit more often. They should also be able to adopt a defensive stance for minimizing the effectiveness of attacks against themselves in exchange for fewer good striking opportunities (missing more).
What offensive abilities?
Pool attacks and basic state attacks. Offensive stance for hitting harder.
What defensive abilities?
Parries, blocks, dodges, etc. Defensive stance for minimizing effectiveness of attacks targeting the Brawler. Also, an increased chance to dodge while moving would help this class defend against ranged combatants, but would still allow for the eventual defeat of the Brawler if they do not manage to make up the distance.
What unique abilities?
Brawlers have the stepping stones to the elite melee professions, so most of their stuff is vanilla, building for what is to come.
There should be, however:
* Offensive Stance (state which would need to be reapplied after posture change): Much like Berserk, but without running out. The Brawler goes into an offensive fighting stance which opens himself up to more strikes but allows him to hit harder in return.
* Defensive Stance (state which would need to be reapplied after posture change): Much like the Center of Being, but without running out. The Brawler adopts a defensive fighting stance to reduce the effectiveness of attacks (both states and damage) in exchange for being in a poor attack position. A Brawler in this state would miss more and do less damage than when in neutral stance, but be much better defended.
* A powerful state attack available in Master, usable in any weapon style. Warcry 2 is extremely powerful and good for this. Along with added bonuses to Offensive and Defensive stances at Master, this would provide good incentive to spend the extra skill points.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The Brawlers should be the ones taking the attention of their enemies while keeping his or her less heavily defensible ranged allies at a distance where they are most useful. The ability of basic pool attacks and basic state attacks will make a brawler useful to any combat group, and much sought after when combined with a good level defensive stance for tanking.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Brawlers are basic professions that can compliment many other play styles. With that in mind, there is nothing specific about Brawlers that make them interact in a unique way with other professions outside of combat. They are obviously consumers for things like armor, weapons, PSGs, doctor buffs, food, etc...
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The Brawler is the close range king. If they can engage an opponent at close range, they will have a high chance of success. If they cannot make up the distance, they require the help of ranged combatants to distract or trip up the foe to help the Brawler get to where he or she can be effective. Conversely, ranged allies will depend on the Brawler to keep melee combatants away so they can be effective with their guns.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
The Brawler has no specific role by themselves in the GCW. They are a basic class and a complement to other roles in the war.
I'm Artisan 0000, Brawler 1000, Entertainer 0111, Marksman 4443, and Scout 4040.