Dancer Archive
Thread: My answer to Holo on Entertainers earning money
This thing is already 20 pages long and I only read about 4 of them before it devolved into a gripe session about dancers, "expecting" tips and AFK macros. If you want to wade through it, have at it:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=392005&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
Meanwhile I just want to say this:
1. Please, PLEASE for the LOVE of all that's holy, do NOT give entertainers slash commands to set their rates or force patrons to pay them! My lord, this would destroy the entertainment profession immediately! It would deny newbie players the benefits of Master heals/buffs, and it would only enforce the image of Entertainers as whining freeloaders. I was opposed to the /denyservice command as well, and I will not be using it except in the rarest of exceptions - and then reluctantly. I think it sets a dangerous precedent.
2. If you want to do something to help the new entertainer, it's very simple: Bump the payouts on entertainer missions. Why were they set so low to begin with? Why would I want to take a 2-way set of missions for a net profit of 200cr that takes me 30 to 40 minutes to complete if I don't hit the shuttles right?? I can pick up a pistol and do destroy missions and make 5k to 8k in the same time period - while not working on one bit of entertainer XP. Why would I want to be an entertainer at all?
I don't know. I think there's something odd here if there are a lot of entertainers complaining about money. If you want to be rich, be a weaponsmith and not a dancer! I made it up through the ranks without even any entertainer missions (most of them were broken) and, while it could have been a little better with a dependable way to earn cash, I now own a large house and a full selection of the best Master clothing items available. Where did I get all that cash? It sure wasn't from selling my cyber services!
"Please, PLEASE for the LOVE of all that's holy, do NOT give entertainers slash commands to set their rates or force patrons to pay them! My lord, this would destroy the entertainment profession immediately! It would deny newbie players the benefits of Master heals/buffs"
What reasoning do you use for this theory? Do you really believe that entertainers are so cheap at heart that they won't even help newbies? Entertainers are just not that cruel. These commands will be used to punish griefers. Other professions have the ability to deny service - why not entertainers?
Beery wrote:
What reasoning do you use for this theory? Do you really believe that entertainers are so cheap at heart that they won't even help newbies? Entertainers are just not that cruel. These commands will be used to punish griefers. Other professions have the ability to deny service - why not entertainers?
First, if something CAN be abused, it WILL be abused. If a Master Dancer walks into a cantina and is the only one there, what's to stop her from /SETRATE 2000, effectively putting herself out of reasonable range of the newbies?
Entertainment is based on a free form system that rewards those who are good at what they do with the appreciation of their audience. Formalizing it like this and making it into a spreadsheet exchange debases the profession. If I wanted to set specific rates for my services I would have been an armorsmith or a tailor.
Entertainers need some more reliable source of income for those expenses they do incur, but I submit that a mission system that pays both credits and XP would do the trick without needless coding that only ends up making entertainers the pariah of Star Wars.
I agree with you Sinda. The only way entertainers will ever be fairly compensated under the current skill setup is through entertainer missions. The game devs created a system where players expect and demand to be healed for free at their whim and any thing less at this point will only create hard feelings and negative reactions from nonentertainers.
The players won't pay for something they think has no value.
Anything 'can' be abused. The point is, the customers are currently abusing the process by refusing to tip. While there will be some abuse under the /denyservice feature, it will not be gross abuse, since denying service would also deny any XP that a dancer would get from the person he/she was denying service to. It cuts both ways - the more service was denied, the less XP the dancer could earn.
I agree with higher-paying missions.Pay should also increase dependent upon the level of the entertainer. A Master dancer should get much more than a newbie. Right now a Master is paid the same as a rookie for the same job - that's wrong.
Doctors hardly go to the hospitals anymore because of the horrible tipping. They'd rather sit in the cantinas helaing us (thanks!) or head out to the field with their freinds to heal while they hunt. There is no reason any profession in this game, especially at master level should not be a viable source of primary income. I agree, that if you want to be rich, you should be a crafter. But with just dancing alone, a master dancer shouldn't have to worry about running dance missions for cash. Those should be for the new folks, helping them get start up money. Having a /setrate or a /denyservice is a great way to do this.
As for people setting rates too high, well once they see that no one will pay, they'll be forced to lower themselves. That's the nice thing about a player generated economy, the market will determine the prices of our goods and services, sometime we find out we can earn more, sometimes less.
-Soon Mot
Master Image Designer
Lowca, Naboo, Theed
The point is, the customers are currently abusing the process by refusing to tip.
These are such a small minority of customers it's not worth changing the whole profession around just to accomodate a small percentage.
By far the majority of patrons I've had were appreciative and enjoyed my performances. Why ask SOE to devote scarce resources to something that truly is not even necessary when there are other ways to enhance our profession?
Doctors hardly go to the hospitals anymore because of the horrible tipping.
Yes, and do you know what drove me out of public cantinas? It wasn't the customers. Not even close. It was the number of underwear twits who thought spamming for tips was how it was done. I don't even want to be associated with those who are dragging the profession into the gutter.
NO PROFESSION IS EVER going to be assumed to be reliant on "tips" to be viable. EVER. Get used to it. As an entertainer, you just plain don't DESERVE a handout. It's a present.
Assume that they make tipping IMPOSSIBLE. Remove it from the game (not a bad idea). You will never ever get tipped again. What would you be doing....? EARNING it like other classes have to already. No one TIPS me for killing creatures to harvest. Freeloading off other professions just isn't good enough an excuse. Flush that idea.
The real trouble is, with this maggot-ridden disease of "forced tipping" wasting time & attentio, the real issue will not get addressed: the sickeningly insulting so-called "payout" of entertainer missions. They need to be fair & fun. Entertainers should be able to entertain for money & do missions & go places instead of sitting in one cantina their whole career whining for handouts. All the other careers can EARN their own way without player charity or extortion. They can expect to do their thing & profit by it on their onw power. Entertainers cannot & still will not with forced "tips".
Make the entertainer missions FUN instead of stupidly tedious. And make them PAY. I wanna see dancers who got rich without ever learning to fight...OR snivelling for free money from me.
Do any entertainers REALLY wanna be a despised leech of a class that everyone hates & resents having to go to & pay? Do they really NEED a NEW ignore command, that has no LEGIT purpose other than petty revenge? Screw that.
"As an entertainer, you just plain don't DESERVE a handout. It's a present. "
How true. The entertainers unique ability to cure Battle Fatigue and heal Mind Wounds is surely more deserving than a hand-out!
"EARNING it like other classes have to already. No one TIPS me for killing creatures to harvest. Freeloading off other professions just isn't good enough an excuse. Flush that idea."
How true again! Every other profession makes money using their speical skills (architect build houses, weaponsmiths make guns etc) and they don't have to rely on tips! They just set a price and you either pay and get it, or don't pay and don't get it. Wonder what the starting price should be on the removal of 100 Battle Fatigue points.......?
"Do any entertainers REALLY wanna be a despised leech of a class that everyone hates & resents having to go to & pay?"
I really hate tailors myself - I hate having to pay them for clothing - but they've got us suckered into paything them unless we all want to run around in our underwear. And as for medics.....whinning about all the stimpacks they have to make, flora that needs to be harvestered! Shaddup and heal me already!
"All the other careers can EARN their own way without player charity or extortion."
This isn't exactly true Ninja007, those **edit** weaponsmiths are the only ones who can make guns and stuff and they know it! They charge whatever they like because they KNOW we have to go to them - biggest bunch of extortionist in the game imo.
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Ok, I'll be serious now. The /setrate command is a way offorcing entertainers into the player-run economy by making their heal skills marketable. As it stands you could concivaly spend weeks as an entertainer and never get 1 credit for all the healing you've done - yeah, we are healers first and foremost - the fancy tunes/dances, pleasant conversation, fruity clothing are just icing - we heal and that's what people want from us. This kind of command will make the skill 'sellable'.
Personally, I'm not keen on the idea of forcing us to charge for healing services. The 'icing' mentioned above is the fun part of the profession and what attracted most entertainers to it. But if people have an attitude like Ninja007 who feel we don't deserve to be paid for healing him, and if he lowers himself to use /tip, we have to consider it a present, then how else are we to make money to pay for skill-ups etc? The missions do pay awfully, but even if they had a bigger payout, how do you get the ridiculously high XP requirements for the elite class if you're on a shuttle, do a quick 3 minute gig in Bestine, onto next shuttle, 3 minutes in Mos Eisley etc.... without having to spend hours and hours grinding dance/heal xp for free?
Entertainers have a unique skills that everyone who ever get's into combat will eventually need. How you market that skill is difficult when you consider the core of the entertainment class.
Zerine
Master Dancer
Fact is, when they decided to take credits out of the economy but lowering payouts on missions, and lowering drops in general, the first ones to feel it the hardest were the entertainers dancing for tips. I know dancers I used to dance with that have already given up the trade and gave up their skills to be something else. Unless you go to Coronet or a huge city like that, you may very well find an empty Cantina. Since entertainers are a required comodity in this game for their healing, something needs to be done to reverse this trend. If you walk into a Med Center, you will see plenty will to pay to get healed but for some reason the same ppl think nothing of walking into a Cantina, getting healed, and walking out... Perhaps entertainers should have more control on who recieves their healing... Perhaps the only one who should get healed are the ppl they actually target, much like a doctor who has the ability to pick and choose who they heal. This would solve the AFK dancer thing also as they would not be targeting anyone and would be no benefit to the group. Targeted healing would certainly make tipping a bit more forth coming. Fact is that one must have some kind of income.
I know this downtrend has hurt tailors also and I see their goods selling for much less as their main customers, entertainers, can't afford the high prices they were demanding.
Fact is that something needs to be done as entertainers are leaving the field and if the trend continues, healing that is suppose to happen won't.
I know dancers like to dance, I do, but perhaps its time to sit... Perhaps its time to do something to make SOE really put some thought into this problem. Stop dancing and the demand for all entertainers will increase to the level of that busy med center.
Each and every profession should be able to 'support itself' and be a viable part of the online world/economy relying only on it's own skillset. If you want to go outside that skillset, fine. You're free to do so. Given that we all have the skill points to master more than one profession, it'd be highly unusual for someone not to. But no one should EVER have to. To put it another way, -every- skillset I spend my time, XP and skill points on should have the potential to support me within the game setting. The point is that the game is supposed to afford everyone the opportunity to play 'their own way' and not be locked into any particular path (or even set of paths, if said set is still exclusive) in order to be viable in a 'practical' sense. (Practical meaning comparative to other options/professions available.)
To all the combat people saying they don't get tipped to kill stuff, why should we to dance/play music? What the heck does your killing anything do for -ME-??? Nothing, nada, zilch, zip. Get the picture? What does my dancing for 5 minutes of my time do for you when you drag your sorry self in to get rid of your BF and Mind Wounds? Nothing? I think not. Your hunting has no worth to me. I rather think my entertaining has more value than that.
Tipping is the problem. Entertainers should not be tipped at all. I loathe the whole tipping thing. Entertainers should be -PAID-! As soon as they threw in the word 'tip' it brought the whole 'optional gratuity' load of baggage with it. That's the problem with the earning power of the Entertainer classes. People now expect to get something (healing) for nothing and that somehow that is 'right' and 'fair.' BS! There's no definition of 'fair' that fits that in any book.
How many Broadway shows open the doors to everyone for free? How many movie stars do you know who work for nothing? How many bars have bands that they never pay? Uh huh.