Dancer Archive
Thread: Suggestion for the entertainer revamp
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Reachwind
Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:39 pm
#1
In this idea I am going to cover three different topics;
- Stage
- Performance
- Audience
The Stage
The first important area badly in need of revamp is the area I simply called "Stage". What I mean by stage is the area in which we will perform to the benefit of the community. Currently this area is player added houses, cantinas, hotels and theaters.
I strongly feel that every cantina, hotel and theaterneeds to have an area set aside (inside the structure) that serves as a stage. The stage area would be the sole place that the healing effects of a dancer or musician would be possible. This stage area should be unique to the city in which the cantina, hotel or theateris located (much in the way the image design tents are laid out).
The Performance
Most of the tools are here. We have a good selection of dances, a good selection of songs. What is need are some improvements with how the visuals line up. Things like how clothing moves with animating characters, a full 8 flourishes for every dance. Unique sounds for each musical instrument and a full compliment of flourishes for each song and each instrument.
The Audience
Here is the most dramatic change that I feel needs to be made. Currently the audience is forced to come to enertainers for healing and then expected to reward the enertainers with a handout (tip). When enertainers aren't given proper compensation for thetime spent they decide to move to other game areas which creates a vacuum where there aren't enough entertainers to service the needs of the players who do not feel payment for service given by entertainers is a valid spendature of money.
WIth that I suggest the addition of the box office. The box office would function asboththe place for players to pay for healing and a place for entertainers to get fairpayment for their time.
The box office has two seperate roles. Thefirst isfor the audience;
Any player wishing to be healed would visit a cantina, hotel or theater. Once inside they would move to an area near the stage and deposit credits for healing in the box office. The credit cost for a healing would be based on the amount of battle fatigue and wounds needed to be healed. Once healing had been paid for an audience member would target the entertainer they wanted to watch or listen to and execute the /watch or /listen command at which time the healing would begin.
The second role for the box office is for the entertainer;
Any player entertainer visting a stage would need to take a mission from the box office. Mission pay would be based on entertainer skillor group size. Taking a mission would allow for an entertainer to heal as well asallow an entertainer to profit from their time spent.
Now you will note that I have not covered enhancement at all. This is due to the fact that we currently do not know what changes the combat upgrade will make to the usefulness or existance or need for any enhancement.
PoetDancer
Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:13 pm
#2
Its simple Sal'tee, and there is something to be said for simplicity in these professions.
These professions don't work very well when there is a lot of complexity. Because if the mechanics of getting the audience there, getting them the things they go to the cantina to get, and getting paid are too complex, any complexity and variety we provide will only muck up the works. Because we are the ones that can provide the complexity within our performances, and that is best appreciated when the basics are relatively simple.
Right now, there is a lot of complexity placed on top of a strikingly elegant, intuitive, and open-ended system. And this complexity has only fostered playstyles that are boring, predictable, and efficiently run via computer. Because when things become too complex for a profession like ours, it only creates a need for something to cut through the complexity in order for everybody to get in and out of the venue with what they all want. Buffbots are not seen as heroes because they are complex. Buffbots are seen as heroes because their very boredom and routinized functions cut through the complexity of this buff system that cannot decide whether it is active or passive.
Ikewe
Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:30 am
#3
I like the idea of having a "designated stage area". That would also help "spread" us out so there aren't 100 people jammed into Coronet while I'm rambling to myself listening to the echo on Lok. I'm still not convinced about the box office idea though - haven't seen a way to address my two previous concerns.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Reachwind
Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:07 am
#4
The box office is a way for an entertainer to have income for every second of their time. It is also a way to make sure that combat folks are actully paying for every bit of healing they recieve. No more no less.
Drygo
Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:42 am
#5
Generally good ideas. Only a couple of issues I see, though. First, again, looking at it through "buffbot colored glasses" then this doesn't address the issue of afk players who will basically be getting free money for hitting F1. That is, unless the box office requires people to go get a mission every hour or so to get paid. In which case, that could be fine. What would also be fine is if the devs outlawed afk play, which may or may not happen, hehe.
The second issue is competition. Sometimes money being distributed in an equal fashion is okay. But, it pretty much knocks out any incentive to be better than the next guy, stifling creativity, and the people being healed will never again feel the need to tip anyone based on how good they are because they will figure they've already paid. I think I'd rather see something where an individual entertainer can set their own prices.
Reachwind
Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:05 am
#6
AFK is very much addressed in this type of system. Yes, missions must be taken in order to heal. Mission timers would not be as long as an hour though. Our current broken missions I believe are 10 mins? In the place of these mission terms we would have the box office which would be available INSIDE the cantina.
I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't be in a hurry to group with an AFK player if they were constantly leeching my money
Now then to your second point, competition. What the box office does is it returns entertainers back to the RPG formula for competition. RPGs see your CHARACTER's skill not the player's skill. A master dancer should make more credits for entertaining than a novice. Even if the master dancer in question is a terrible entertainer because the player behind it only knows how to /startd and /flo 1.
As far as role play entertaining/putting on shows etc goes. This really won't affect those players negatively at all. You still have the freedom to put on incredible shows. Players that want to encourage further role play entertaining can still /tip we aren't removing this ability we are simply adding the need for all players to pay for all healing and all entertainers who wish to heal to be at the keys long enough to grab a mission.
I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't be in a hurry to group with an AFK player if they were constantly leeching my money
Now then to your second point, competition. What the box office does is it returns entertainers back to the RPG formula for competition. RPGs see your CHARACTER's skill not the player's skill. A master dancer should make more credits for entertaining than a novice. Even if the master dancer in question is a terrible entertainer because the player behind it only knows how to /startd and /flo 1.
As far as role play entertaining/putting on shows etc goes. This really won't affect those players negatively at all. You still have the freedom to put on incredible shows. Players that want to encourage further role play entertaining can still /tip we aren't removing this ability we are simply adding the need for all players to pay for all healing and all entertainers who wish to heal to be at the keys long enough to grab a mission.
PoetDancer
Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:26 am
#7
I've done pretty well under the tip system. However, I understand others have not, and for many reasons. Some of the reasons players don't do well under the tip system can be traced to things players do or don't do. Other reasons may be due to other factors seperate from the ability to amuse, like the initial choice of species and gender. I am sympathetic to their needs too, because it can be a hard thing to put your all into a performance and get nothing out of it simply because youwere "born" asa Trandoshan male 
. However, I am not sure I personally can do as well under a terminal payment system as opposed to the tip system.
. However, I am not sure I personally can do as well under a terminal payment system as opposed to the tip system.But I understand it has to be one or the other. If we get paid through the terminals, players may not see the need at all for tipping us anything extra. But on the other hand, if we cannot make any sort of income other than the tip system, it means that players have a sort of incentive to tip the things they like to see, or else we'd go elsewhere.
The terminals right now are a sort of "halfway house" between these two concepts. There is terminal money, but its so small that this alone does not give entertainers a reason to be dependent on it. So as a result, players arte still sort of responsible for tipping the things they like to see.
Of course, that only works if unattended entertainers are not around, because you don't have to give them anything at all to skill animate. The fact that these functions can be automated so easily means our options are rather limited as to what we can hope to expect out of a payment plan.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-20-2004 12:29 PM
Ikewe
Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:27 am
#8
"The box office is a way for an entertainer to have income for every second of their time. It is also a way to make sure that combat folks are actully paying for every bit of healing they recieve. No more no less. "
I understand the concept but what about when I have some other arrangement with the players needing healing? If I have a chef who provides me with food and drink or a physician who provides me with buffs for example,then that playernow has to pay me for healing. Thatruins all the barter relationships I have established. If you can make some way around the "required credits before healing" portion then I'd be willing to accept this idea of a box office.
(still don't have the text colour secret decoder ring so chose the green instead of yellow. someone please tell me that doesn't mean I just challenged someone to a duel )
)Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Reachwind
Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:31 am
#9
The idea is to take us out of the equation entirely for combat folks. They wouldn't pay us the entertainers directly anymore. They would pay the establishment they were healing at.
They could still tip, but we couldn't offer free heals anymore. It would be out of our hands.
They could still tip, but we couldn't offer free heals anymore. It would be out of our hands.
kirah_ashlin
Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:36 am
#10
I like the concept, Reachwind, however, I have to agree that I don't want the decision of how or what the patron pays to be taken out of my hands. No other profession has that limitation and I would rather not have SOE determining what my skills are worth (after all - the current entertainermissionsare proof enough how little they think we should make). I would consider it as an option, but not as a requirement. If you addressed that and I missed it, I'll go back and re-read your posts again.
LyteFoot
Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:20 pm
#11
I don't want to remove the ability to heal for free. First off personally I don' t mind it, but secondly I get free items from my guildmates and don't want to lose the ability to reciprocate. In addition guildies will go out of their way to bring healing to anyone of us working on leveling an ent. No other profession is forced to charge and I do not want to see us differentiated in that way. I also think it would make us even more disliked.
TabithaRashelle
Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:55 am
#12
Ialready feel boxed in and over-regulated with the current system. No offense, but when i read your suggestions i felt the walls come in even more. For me being an entertainer means having a [admittedly limited] means to freely express my self and creativity.
Rather than being stuffed onto a stage and spoon fed exact change per flourish, I think we should go to the diametrically opposed extreme.
If I want to lift players hearts [ok, technically mind stats] by pulling a "The Hills are Alive" number on the top of a grassy hill on Naboo ala Julie Andrews in the "Sound of Music" then I see absolutely no reason whythat shouldn't be an effectively healing act. Another great example of "entertainers" lifting hearts and focusing minds is that of the morale boosting bagpiper or drummer boy in the midst of a battle, helping keep cadence and instill pride in the troops while risking their lives to do it. Ever wonder why it is people stop and watch and listen to street performers in big cities? Why is it no one ever does that in SWG?
The plain and simple fact is that we are an already too limited class of character within the established game mechanics. Any attempt to further isolate and limit our effective capabilities will just serve to make us all seem less like an important and vital part of the game. We need to push for being MORE integrated into the social and economic life of the servers we play on, not LESS. We need to be a welcome sight for like factioned battle weary troops on the battlefield. We need to have people be excited to see an entertainer on the street performing well. Non-entertainers will respect us and our Dev given beneficial healing abilities when they see as equals, often being equally passionate about faction, equally willing to face danger in battle, equally driven to roam the galaxy and see its wonders along side them.
Do we lose cantinas/hotels as a venue?Or would less adventurous entertainers lose out? Surely not. All that is required there is what should have been in place at the first, a fairly substantial bonus to healing and buffing when done in those venues. Then a player has the balanced choice: take a bit of a limited benefit by being entertained here and now by a comerade and be able to jump immediately back into the fray; or be patient and go watch/listen tothose beautiful and focused professionals at the cantina/theater/hotel and get a better product at the cost of leaving the scene of the action. My guess is that you would see a mix of the above two results, with groups of adventurers heading to the cantinas before an adventure AND asking an entertainer friend or even someone right off the cantina floor to join them in their fun.
Lastly i thinkwe need to address the economics of the ticket box mentality. I believe in free markets. If you want to make good tips: play and dance well; be a striking character in dress, speech and routine; create a character people will want to watch! I see no reason a Trandoshan can't make a great living if he or she capitalizes on it right: people dont see you as sexy? fine, crack jokes and wear silly outfits, be aware of your surroundings and have fun with them interacting in a memorable way with your customers. Or better yet, dont be a Trandoshan entertainer if you dont think you can pull it off, you arent really born a character species as if there were no choice. We as entertainers have a viable, necessary and important commodity cornered, if you arent making money at selling it, try something different. A ticket box is a fine idea for an event where a door charge is required, and maybe it IS an option that could be offered at some particular venue like a theater (currently useless) but to have it be a primary way of generating income as an entertainer is wrong.
Sorry to be so vehemently opposed to the idea of the thread poster. I mean absolutely nothing personal by my attack on the idea. Thanks for reading this and have a happy Thanksgiving holiday
Tabi
Message Edited by TabithaRashelle on 11-25-2004 11:07 AM
Tralmek
Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:28 am
#13
I can't support an idea that could make it so that Newbies couldn't afford healing, or that would charge my friends for heals and buffs.
To charge an entrance fee would make it so Entertainers are more exclusive and set apart from other professions. It would give people an actual reason to despise going to cantinas, and it would take away the "need" for customers to tip. (After all, they already gave us money once when they came in.)
A Doctor may request a certain price for buffs, rezzes, and heals, and a good 95% of the time that Doctor will receive exactly the fee asked for. VERY rarely, someone might tip a few hundred extra credits (or maybe an extra thousand or two) for quick/good heals and buffs.
If mindhealing were to be affordable to everyone, even the newbie, then entrance fees to the cantinas would be so low, we might as well just be doing two ofthe 200 credit missions every 10 minutes.
(Ok, please forgive this next analogy. It's not meant to be insulting to anyone... )
)Cantinas should not degrade into European water closets where there is always an entrance fee. Instead, it should be like the American rest stops where anyone can come by and use it. For those of you who don't know, fees were instituted on the rest stops betwee Spokane and Seattle Washington (East-West Washington) and people who frequently made that trip would use bottles which they'd throw out the car window near the rest stops. It wasn't that the fees were too high--we're talking about successful business people here--but the principle is why they did it. It was something that had always been free and should haveremained that way.
SO, instead of coming into a box officed cantina, I imagine a lot of people will hold their mind wounds until they can get healed by friends in a private house/cantina--they might even set buff & healbots in these places. True, this could get rid of LAMers and buffbots in public cantinas, but it would only move them and wouldn't solve the underlying problems. So, Live Entertainers might be able to reclaim some of the NPC cantinas again, but there would be no one to Entertain.
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