Dancer Archive
Thread: POLL: Skill Point Investment [RESULTS]
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Esharra
Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:25 pm
#1
To my knowledge, there are no plans to reduce our Skill Point requirement in the CU. However, the devs might be open to it if we want to ask for a reduction or elimination of SP. There has been discussion on both sides of this issue. So let's have a poll. In this poll we're only considering the SP requirement for the Dancer profession, not Entertainer.
Please select one of the following choices.
1. I would like for our Skill Point requirement to stay the same.
2. I would like for the Skill Point requirement to be reduced.
3. I would like for the Skill Point requirement to be eliminated.
Consider carefully the options before making your choice. We are only talking about Skill Points here..nothing else. Feel free to discuss your choice. While heated discussion happens between mature adults when debating a topic that evokes passion, let's avoid flaming or any other disruptions that might get this thread locked or deleted.
Message Edited by Esharra on 04-08-2005 04:44 PM
Sunjammer
Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:38 pm
#2
1. I would like for our Skill Point requirement to stay the same.
Umi
Umi
Eaca
Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:43 pm
#3
I vote for 1 if they can find a good replacement for our 28 currently useless skill points in a timely manner...
So pretty much I vote for 2, unless when they enable elite professions we find our buffing skills gone too...
Then I'll pretty much be a 3, cause lets face it, even 78SP is a lot to pay for extra emotes.
Chessack
Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:48 pm
#4
I'm not trying to be harsh here, but I am not sure this poll is going to be useful as is. The problem is, every one of those options comes with some conditionals. Let me point them out.
1. "I would like our skill point requirement to stay the same." What does this mean? Does it mean we continue to have 16 boxes but 4 of them (25% of them, in other words) are just there to make the skill set a square 4x4 grid, and have no functional purpose (i.e., mind wound healing after CURB)? Or does keeping skill points the same imply added content to replace what has been removed from the game (mind wound healing) without removing the points required or the # of boxes and XP to master. For example, I would be happy to keep paying 63 total points for the profession mastery, *if* those 4 skill boxes were turned into something else. But I'm not going to be happy if they just take existing content (i.e. dances) and move them into a second branch just to make it "fill out" properly. If they add a new thing we can do, or something, then fine. If they're just gonna leave the profession exactly as it is now without the mind wounds, then not fine.
2. "I would like the skill point requirement to be reduced." This begs the question of HOW it is going to be reduced. Are they going to do what they did with ID, and make each box cost less, in all 4 branches of the skill tree? This would imply that they are still going to leave us with 4 boxes of "mind wound healing" that are useless, or else (see above) move existing things around to "fill in the space." Are those 4 boxes that currently are about to start hanging in the breeze doing nothing going to continue to cost us upwards of 250,000 healing xp when they no longer give us any healing abilities? Such a reduction (say, each box costs 2 points but no other change to the tree) would be useful for doing other profs but doesn't fix the essential problem, which is that we have an entire branch out of four that is now broken completely.
On the other hand, if they reduced the skill points by changing the tree, i.e., making it 3 branches instead of four, I'd be delighted. This would give me back skill points, but also means a 50% reduction in the healing XP requirement to master -- a welcome reduction because there are going to be a lot less ways to gain that xp once CU goes live.
However, we have to be realistic. The game system seems to want a square grid for each profession. It is not only possible but probable, that the system (without a complete re-code from the basement up) would not be able to handle a 3-tree profession. If that is the case, then asking for this is a moot point, and that means a simple skill point reduction, while potentially welcome for allowing me to do other things, does nothing to fix what is broken about the profession. So perhaps the first thing we need is an answer from a dev who knows what he is talking about -- is the 4x4 square grid approach flexible (can they do 3x4 instead) or not? If not, then let's not even go there. But also if not, then making broken skill cost less points is no fix at all.
3. "I would like for the Skill Point requirement to be eliminated." Again this would depend on the conditions. What is being eliminated along with the cost? Are they going to get rid of the healing element as well? And I don't mind that, actually... except... we have to know that if they do this, all future potential fixes for our profession are out, probably even minor ones or bug fixes. Why should the devs, after all, do any work at all, for a profession that has been turned into mere "eye candy." On the other hand if it doesn't cost me any points, then I'm not sure I care that much if there are bugs. It'd be kind of like a free profession.
My answer to this poll then is with some caveat emptors.
MY FIRST CHOICE would be to cut an entire branch out of the tree (mind wound) and make it a 3x4 tree with 3 disciplines and thus cost 14 less skill points to do, as well as 50% less healing XP to master. Note I have no vested interest in this since my character is already a master... but I would love to see other new dancers come along and this is the only way I can see anyone tolerating the grind to get there.
However, recognizing that a 3x4 skill tree is probably not possible, MY SECOND CHOICE, would be to none of the above, but rather, to do something about the missing branch FIRST, and then worry about what it costs in terms of skill points. Pressed to choose I would ask for a skill point reduction of some sort, but I do not think simply making it cost 32 points or 16 points like ID is at all likely to do anything useful, other than free up some skill points so dancers can do something else. That's nice, but it doesn't fix the missing tree branch problem, which is exactly what started the debate about skill points in the first place (i.e., "If I have 4 useless skill boxes give me back the SPs").
I'm not trying to rain on your first poll here. I just think this is putting the cart before the horse. The real issue is what becomes of the relict skill branch? And even that is premature, because the even previous question needs to be, what do the devs envision as our role post-CU, and are they going to give us any say in what that role becomes? I'm not sure we can answer your poll without having these questions answered first.
C
1. "I would like our skill point requirement to stay the same." What does this mean? Does it mean we continue to have 16 boxes but 4 of them (25% of them, in other words) are just there to make the skill set a square 4x4 grid, and have no functional purpose (i.e., mind wound healing after CURB)? Or does keeping skill points the same imply added content to replace what has been removed from the game (mind wound healing) without removing the points required or the # of boxes and XP to master. For example, I would be happy to keep paying 63 total points for the profession mastery, *if* those 4 skill boxes were turned into something else. But I'm not going to be happy if they just take existing content (i.e. dances) and move them into a second branch just to make it "fill out" properly. If they add a new thing we can do, or something, then fine. If they're just gonna leave the profession exactly as it is now without the mind wounds, then not fine.
2. "I would like the skill point requirement to be reduced." This begs the question of HOW it is going to be reduced. Are they going to do what they did with ID, and make each box cost less, in all 4 branches of the skill tree? This would imply that they are still going to leave us with 4 boxes of "mind wound healing" that are useless, or else (see above) move existing things around to "fill in the space." Are those 4 boxes that currently are about to start hanging in the breeze doing nothing going to continue to cost us upwards of 250,000 healing xp when they no longer give us any healing abilities? Such a reduction (say, each box costs 2 points but no other change to the tree) would be useful for doing other profs but doesn't fix the essential problem, which is that we have an entire branch out of four that is now broken completely.
On the other hand, if they reduced the skill points by changing the tree, i.e., making it 3 branches instead of four, I'd be delighted. This would give me back skill points, but also means a 50% reduction in the healing XP requirement to master -- a welcome reduction because there are going to be a lot less ways to gain that xp once CU goes live.
However, we have to be realistic. The game system seems to want a square grid for each profession. It is not only possible but probable, that the system (without a complete re-code from the basement up) would not be able to handle a 3-tree profession. If that is the case, then asking for this is a moot point, and that means a simple skill point reduction, while potentially welcome for allowing me to do other things, does nothing to fix what is broken about the profession. So perhaps the first thing we need is an answer from a dev who knows what he is talking about -- is the 4x4 square grid approach flexible (can they do 3x4 instead) or not? If not, then let's not even go there. But also if not, then making broken skill cost less points is no fix at all.
3. "I would like for the Skill Point requirement to be eliminated." Again this would depend on the conditions. What is being eliminated along with the cost? Are they going to get rid of the healing element as well? And I don't mind that, actually... except... we have to know that if they do this, all future potential fixes for our profession are out, probably even minor ones or bug fixes. Why should the devs, after all, do any work at all, for a profession that has been turned into mere "eye candy." On the other hand if it doesn't cost me any points, then I'm not sure I care that much if there are bugs. It'd be kind of like a free profession.
My answer to this poll then is with some caveat emptors.
MY FIRST CHOICE would be to cut an entire branch out of the tree (mind wound) and make it a 3x4 tree with 3 disciplines and thus cost 14 less skill points to do, as well as 50% less healing XP to master. Note I have no vested interest in this since my character is already a master... but I would love to see other new dancers come along and this is the only way I can see anyone tolerating the grind to get there.
However, recognizing that a 3x4 skill tree is probably not possible, MY SECOND CHOICE, would be to none of the above, but rather, to do something about the missing branch FIRST, and then worry about what it costs in terms of skill points. Pressed to choose I would ask for a skill point reduction of some sort, but I do not think simply making it cost 32 points or 16 points like ID is at all likely to do anything useful, other than free up some skill points so dancers can do something else. That's nice, but it doesn't fix the missing tree branch problem, which is exactly what started the debate about skill points in the first place (i.e., "If I have 4 useless skill boxes give me back the SPs").
I'm not trying to rain on your first poll here. I just think this is putting the cart before the horse. The real issue is what becomes of the relict skill branch? And even that is premature, because the even previous question needs to be, what do the devs envision as our role post-CU, and are they going to give us any say in what that role becomes? I'm not sure we can answer your poll without having these questions answered first.
C
Esharra
Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:05 pm
#5
Chessack wrote:
what started the debate about skill points in the first place (i.e., "If I have 4 useless skill boxes give me back the SPs").
While that is what started the debate, I just wanted to make note that I'm notconsidering the potential "useless skill box" discussion. Onlywanting to see where everyone is withthe Skill Point question. (while one may lead to another in an overall discussion, I'm just looking at where everyone stands at this point in time on this one topic only).
DarkY0da
Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:05 pm
#6
Hmm honestly it all depends on one very important question that requires a public answer by a Red Tag.
Are they still planning on doing an Entertainer Revamp this year ?
If the answer is what I expect, then my answer to your poll is...
#3.
There is honestly no point for the huge sp cost or even any sp cost at all if we are basicly Emotes. As BF gain and healing and it's affects are a joke.
Are they still planning on doing an Entertainer Revamp this year ?
If the answer is what I expect, then my answer to your poll is...
#3.
There is honestly no point for the huge sp cost or even any sp cost at all if we are basicly Emotes. As BF gain and healing and it's affects are a joke.
Message Edited by DarkY0da on 04-03-2005 11:07 PM
Ikewe
Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:11 pm
#7
I vote for 2. Removing a function of our profession as they are with the CU means we're paying too much for the profession so option 1 is out in my book. I still enjoy the rest of the profession enough that I don't want it to be completely eliminated skill point wise (though that may change depending upon what the future does or does not hold). So as it stands now, with no further information forthcoming from the devs, for me it's Option 2 all the way.
Please select one of the following choices.
1. I would like for our Skill Point requirement to stay the same.
2. I would like for the Skill Point requirement to be reduced.
3. I would like for the Skill Point requirement to be eliminated.
Else-Whira
Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:31 pm
#8
2 we need to be reduced by 28 skill points when this change goes live.
3 would be totally acceptable to me as well, but I know a lot of dancers that would quit on the spot if this profession were given up on like that.
For 1 to be acceptable a set of wounds only we could heal would have to be added back into combat equation.
3 would be totally acceptable to me as well, but I know a lot of dancers that would quit on the spot if this profession were given up on like that.
For 1 to be acceptable a set of wounds only we could heal would have to be added back into combat equation.
Groovymarlin
Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:22 pm
#9
1. "I would like our skill point requirement to stay the same." What does this mean? Does it mean we continue to have 16 boxes but 4 of them (25% of them, in other words) are just there to make the skill set a square 4x4 grid, and have no functional purpose (i.e., mind wound healing after CURB)?
Actually...it's eight boxes that are useless. Four for mind wound healing, and four for mind enhancement (well, except for the special effects of course, but I'm not sure they deserve boxes of their own). In the CURB there are no more mind buffs, and though they have promised some type of "low level, combat-related buff" in the future, there's no indication of what that buff might be or when they'll implement it.
For myself I guess I would vote for 2, if I hadn't cancelled my account already.
Chessack
Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:26 pm
#10
Special effects are fine for that line. That's all they were for months before mind buffing was anything to speak of (it used to be at master you could do like a 25 minute 25% buff before Sinda Blackstar almost single-handedly got it changed to 100% for 2 hours). That line's always been visual fluff and I don't mind that. So there really is one broken line, in that it does nothing, and that's mind wounds.
I know this is supposed to be a simple poll but I think the question depends on many other things we don't know the answers to yet.
C
I know this is supposed to be a simple poll but I think the question depends on many other things we don't know the answers to yet.
C
Eerif
Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:41 pm
#11
1 for me...
Although a skill point reduction would be the easy thing to do, I believe it means the devs are hinting that the profession is worth less than the other professions. I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that the future ent revamp isn't just a reduction of skill points.
Tralmek
Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:48 pm
#12
1.
I don't want to let the Devs off the hook for taking entire lines worth of our skills away from us. I much prefer them to put some time and thought into us instead of just randomly stealing from us and then fudging numbers in our skilltrees to try making us feel better. It makes me feel as though I'm worthless in their eyes.
Anoewyn
Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:39 pm
#13
Some really good insights as to why people are opting for certain choices, and I think that now is as good a time as any to see where the community stands on this seeing as the CU is practically around the corner. I agree, the choices for me hinge on what a red name might tell us - but as they rarely give us an inkling of their time I can only go with what feels like a viable option at this stage. For me it boils down to the following:
#2 I would like the Skillpoints reduced - One of the things many of us know is that the entertainer professions are very skillpoint hungry, and in light of the CU I no longer beleive that the amount of skillpoints invested in this profession justifies the very little we get in return. Given that we are also losing a large degree of our functionality in our trees/templates, I think the devs owe us our skillpoints back at the very least (well, seeing as they have not seen fit to indicate where the direction of the Dancer profs is going, or if there is going to be any replacement of these boxes with new trees/skills). However, if there is going to be a skillpoint reduction, I think there should also be an xp reduction for the EH xp, as BF accrument rates simply do not cut it to make levelling something that can be achieved in a decent timeframe. Whether a reduction in skillpoints will encourage people to pick up the red shoes in greater numbers is yet to be seen, but if they are going to "tweak" the skillpoints, then the xp requirements need to be "tweaked" accordingly, otherwise the skillpoint reduction may not be a great enough incentive to encourage people into the profession.
#3 I would like the skillpoint requirement eliminated - I find this to be also acceptable, as some have rightfully pointed out that even with reduced skillpoint requirements, the Dancer prof would still be rather costly for nothing more than a set of specialised emotes. However, I am still a little hesitant. The cynic in me says "Pffft, with every passing day - dancers continue to lose their value, why not make it so it costs nothing?" My greatest fear for the Dancer profession is to see our characters turn into nothing more than animating avatars in a glorified chat room, and come post-CU if there is still no communication from the devs as to where we stand within relation to the rest of the community, then that is where I fear we will end up. If this is the future for Dancers, then I would rather have all my skillpoints back to be spent on abilities that will allow me to participate in the gameworld effectively. Perhaps they make Entertainer/Dancer a profession that had its own set of skillpoints (yes, I still think people should earn the rights to those fancy emotes), like the pilot professions - would this encourage people to pick it up? Maybe, maybe not - still have some concerns as to what that would mean. Would it raise questions like - If they did that for Entertaining, why not Crafting? Why not allow everyone to be able to be a jack of all trades? (Somehow, I would find that disappointing - one of the things that I like about SWG is the ability to mix'n'match templates and professions, so someone can be a "unique" character, and just as that would mean the loss of our individuality as Dancers, what would it mean for the economy and the crafters?)
It could work one of two ways - either encourage socialisation and more group performing because now everyone can do it (could this be another way of eliminating bots?), or it may not do anything at all as people don't feel they can be bothered wasting their time on something that has no inherent value to them? I agree completely with the concerns that the removal of our skillpoint requirements may reinforce the notion that Entertaining is not a worthwhile activity - but that Dancing is nothing more that a bit of fluffy flavouring. I would also be greatly disappointed that if every Tom, Rick and Harry could /popular2, as we would lose our uniqueness, our "star quality" within the SWG community.
Well, those are just some thoughts - I'm still thinking thinking thinking, and no way settled completely on either option. A lot of what may change in my reasoning for one or the other would hinge on whether a Dev can clarify exactly where the direction of Dancer profession is going, exactly when will they be giving us a revamp and what they revamp would entail. Will the revamp will consist of dances, props, commands and all the other things we've been dreaming of to justify the value of the skillpoints spent (provided they take option 1 or 2)? Will the timeframe to earning those masteries be appropriate? And more importantly - will the improvements and changes they do implement make us an "enviable" character within the galaxy with our own viability that links us to the rest of the community?
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