Dancer Archive
Thread: Why is it important to force people to come to the Cantina?
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Drygo
Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:34 pm
#1
I hope nobody takes this post as flame bait, because I definitely don't intend it to be. I know you folks know I'm very much against unattended play. And, many of you know I love getting into groups, especially groups that perform and sync dance.
I also greatly enjoy being appreciated by non-entertainers. I like it when people think what I or my group is doing is interesting enough to stop what they're doing and actually stay and watch and go "wow."
However, when trying to come up with ideas to deal with the perceived lack of entertainers to provide healing or buffing, whenever certain ideas are proposed (such as holovids), there are a bunch of people who invariably come in to post that it would destroy the Cantina atmosphere and nobody would come to watch us. And, many of those same people appear to have the viewpoint that people should be forced to come into the Cantina to watch us through game mechanics.
Me? I don't understand why. Don't get me wrong. I do obviously want to have other people around me when I'm dancing. It's why I don't dance in my player city's Cantina all day long by myself, it's the reason I don't go to the out of the way NPC Cantinas that only have one person come through an hour. It's also why I hate afk and often won't go to places like Coronet, where there's no hope of interaction or conversation.
So, yes, I definitely understand how people feel in that we must have *some* social interaction with other entertainers and customers in order for our gameplay to be satisfying. It's a big part of why we do what we do. What I don't understand is why many of us feel the need to force every single player to have to come watch a live entertainer.
Put simply, there are plenty of people who don't enjoy playing as we enjoy playing. Personally, I'd rather not force those players to come see us. On the other hand, in a world free of afk and buffbots, I think we will have an upswing in entertainers again to keep each other company. And, I think that there are, despite present notions to the contrary, plenty of non-entertainers who would enjoy coming to see live entertainers for healing and buffing, players who enjoy the atmosphere of a non-afk Cantina. And, then just a whole boat load of people smack dab in the middle who could care less either way, but would generally still come to Cantinas for contact and groups and training, whatever the case may be. There are also a decent amount of RP'ers who enjoy having entertainers for events. I'm only using holovideos because that's the only example I can think of right now. But, my point is that if we were to add something such as holovideos, I still believe we would have a Cantina that would be thriving enough to suit our purposes. Because to be honest, how many people do I need right there with me to make my gameplay enjoyable? 5? 10? 50?
I don't need 50 people there, I know that much. I do think care must be taken to keep the Cantinas from becoming like the med centers, which is why I don't agree with being able to heal and buff with a droid out in the starport. But, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I think it's possible to find a middle ground to keep the Cantinas vibrant, without forcing people to *always* have to come to a Cantina. It's also sort of why I don't think holovideos should be used for healing purposes. There must be some reason, some incentive to come to the Cantina. However, for "luxuries" such as buffing? I'm not sure what harm it would be if we were able to produce videos for them.
In fact, one could argue that by allowing videos to buff, we would have a lot less interruption. Because, let's face it, there *are* entertainers who don't want to buff because it ruins their ability to perform, entertain and socialize. For all my complaining about buffbots, the truth of the matter is, yes, sometimes I'm dancing away in the Cantina having a good time and having to stop what I'm doing to buff someone is a pain in the butt. Having to drop from the entertainer group because a line of 5 begins to form is not optimal for me. I *am* concerned about the end of the recursive macro and having people ask me *constantly* for buffs. I *remember* what that was like. I *remember* dropping my title at times because I couldn't step foot in Coronet without a bombardment of /tells asking me for buffs. I've been to Cantina Crawls on Bria, perhaps the epitome of performing and having a good time, and I've noticed some people watching us ask for buffs. Now, on Bria, my buffs are only 10% so I never respond or offer a buff. I wonder if anyone actually does? I almost feel guilty that this person who came in to see us, and asked very politely, may not be getting a buff when there are 50+ entertainers and *many* masters in the room. This has happened at player events that I've been to with Drygo before. I've basically had to say, "yes, I'll buff you, but I'm performing, so this buff may take 15 minutes to take effect rather than my usual 3.5 minutes." I'd much prefer to say, "I'm sorry, I can't right now, but here's one of my videos."
None of this is me trying to cater to people and bending over backwards. It's just about me feeling like I should because someone was nice enough to ask, and because I'm a nice guy.
Now, I have to ask myself, would I be willing to deal with half of the people in the Cantinas as there are now in order to allow me to perform as I choose, while at the same time being able to put a little money in my pocket from selling a buff that doesn't require me to be live? The answer, for me, is a definitive yes. Am I willing to put up with being alone in a Cantina for this same ability? No. But, as I said above, there can be a middle ground here that helps keep *everyone* happy without ruining the Cantina, without bending over backwards, and without having to deal with people who don't even want to be there. What's the harm in that? Why *must* we force everyone to come watch us?
Utess
Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:53 pm
#2
There are a couple of reasons really. Cantina's give us entertainers a place to meet and socialize with each other. Yes, much of the feel in the cantinas was ruined by the hologrind and their successors the buff bots. But I'd like to stay optimistic and think that some day when the bot problem is fixed Cantinas can return to what they once were.
If you remove the cantina requirement:
Static cantinas will become what hotels are already, empty and never used. And very few player cities will put up their own cantinas anymore either. Why have them when you don't need them?
The truth is most of us will go to where the players are. Thats why hotels are never used. Cantinas just became the choice location for cities. If players no longer have to go to Cantinas then eventually no one will ever use them at all except for rare special events.
Some might not mind that. Myself, having seen and remembering what Cantinas once were like in this game, I would hate to lose them entirely.
lycanthropy
Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:54 pm
#3
cause if all we did was dance in the streets, and in the woods it would seem sorta odd, and i might feel like a homeless street performer.
Message Edited by lycanthropy on 09-30-2004 04:55 PM
Drygo
Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:00 pm
#4
Utess wrote:
The truth is most of us will go to where the players are. Thats why hotels are never used. Cantinas just became the choice location for cities. If players no longer have to go to Cantinas then eventually no one will ever use them at all except for rare special events.
Some might not mind that. Myself, having seen and remembering what Cantinas once were like in this game, I would hate to lose them entirely.
I agree with you, Tess. I don't want to see the Cantinas become obsolete. As I mentioned in my post above, I don't want to see the Cantinas become devoid of life like the med centers. I still want people to come to the Cantinas. But, what I'm trying to say is, is it necessary that we make every single function of ours have to take place in a Cantina? Can't there be some sort of middle ground that still keeps the vibrancy of the Cantinas in tact without forcing everybody to come for every single game function. After all, we *can* buff in houses and in camps, and that hasn't stopped people from coming to Cantinas. I do not agree with making every single game function viable outside of the Cantinas.
In fact, one could even say, if we made videos able to heal (which I'm not sure I like, but let's say they can for this example), can't there be some sort of "compromise" that still means people have to go to a Cantina to use them?
Not saying this is how it should be done, just wondering why it's absolutely necessary to make people seek out a live entertainer for a buff, for example, when there are things that can still be done to benefit all involved and still line our pockets and still keep the Cantinas vibrant.
Sunjammer
Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:02 pm
#5
He didn't say WE can't go to the cantinas. Just that we shouldn't force non-entertainers to come there against their will, using BF or buffs or any other game mechanic that REQUIRES them to visit.
Plus there are theatres, hotels, and entertainer guildhalls. Not to mention randomly attacking a faction base with a performance. "Yes, we're that troupe the Imperial Entertainers Guild promised to send you. What, you didn't get the memo?"
It's a good question, and I want to think about it a bit more before I answer. Off the top of my head, I think that if there was no BF, and nobody came into the cantinas unless they wanted to, I'd still be an entertainer.
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by Freefall:
"You bought this for me, remember?"
"I remember. That stuff cost me an arm and a leg!"
"Yeah, you were lucky it was just a shot glass you dropped."
Plus there are theatres, hotels, and entertainer guildhalls. Not to mention randomly attacking a faction base with a performance. "Yes, we're that troupe the Imperial Entertainers Guild promised to send you. What, you didn't get the memo?"
It's a good question, and I want to think about it a bit more before I answer. Off the top of my head, I think that if there was no BF, and nobody came into the cantinas unless they wanted to, I'd still be an entertainer.
J.
Umiio "Umi" Panwanga • Rodian party girl • Bria
Iba'onchab • Gets boarded sometimes • Chimaera
This random sig quote is brought to you by Freefall:
"You bought this for me, remember?"
"I remember. That stuff cost me an arm and a leg!"
"Yeah, you were lucky it was just a shot glass you dropped."
Utess
Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:04 pm
#6
I agree it would be nice to do more outside the cantinas, in fact there are a few things I'd really like to be able to do outside of them. But, I think if they allow that, they need to, at the same time, add more incentives for both us and our customers to be there. Be it in the form of more content, better mods, or both.
Oqua
Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:20 pm
#7
Thats just it though..I really don't care about people coming to "interact" with me if I am performing.
My main concern about people coming into the cantinas can be summed up in two thoughts which I have stated previously:
One: I am concerned with up and coming entertainers. I remember how it was for me coming to theed for the first time. Prior to this I had been in the cantina, alone, in Narmle. I went all the way up to novice dancer alone, and when I finally ventured to Theed I was so happy to find a busy bustling place of people. I was ecstatic in finding others who were dancing/playing music like I was and I was doubly happy to find out that I got a bonus for performing. And wow, did the healing xp fly! The only healing xp I had to date had been healing my Taewyn when he would come in from hunting/exploring trips.
I am a shy person by nature, only really "speaking" when spoken to, or to ask the timid questions. So when coming to Theed I found not only friends who helped me hone my craft, but loads of xp...what would I have found now...or after any proposed compromise that would lead people out of the cantinas? I more then not would have gotten discouraged and dropped the dance, thinking it was an impossible dream to get and not knowing anyone to ask about how to do this. Honestly...before I talked to anyone I thought that I had to get master entertainer to even try and get master dancer, and I didn't even know about hotkeys. I typed out /flourish 1, etc, each time and managed to interact with customers (by interact I mean a polite hello and be safe as they were leaving).
Two: How do most of us meet people? When we stop and take the time to group or chat...the cantina represents that meeting/focale point for many in the game. Taking that out of the mix would have an adverse effect (possibly) to the makeup of the MMO atmosphere, leading more in turn to everyone being more isolated and what not.
Honestly...when in game I normally keep to myself. I talk to what good friends I have in tells, but for the most part I am quietly doing what tasks I need to do that day/evening.
So its not about "needing" people to come and watch me or interact. Its not even about ecomomics for me (I have not relied on tips since about the first month of play).
What it is all about for me is the feeling I got when I made Master Dancer. I was proud...so proud. I remember Taewyn telling me "Honey! You are an elite profession! Wow!". I held my head high...and knew that I had done something worth being proud about. I worked long hours at the keys. I knew my dances/flourishes. I was known for being kind and friendly to those who came in the cantina, weary from battle.
Now? I am a dancer...nothing great about that in the eyes of the populace. Anyone can make that happen in a few days...you don't even have to be there. I have been reduced to something that is expected to perform on demand, no courtesy is alloted to me. I am either a nameless faceless bot, or a person to be propositioned since I am this profession.
As I have stated and will continue to state....you all can push for what you want, in the end its all up to the devs.
The only thing I hope is that I get my elite profession back. I spent many many skillpoints in getting it...and spent many many hours atk's learning it. Why should I be made smaller just because someone isn't trying to integrate themselves into my craft, becoming knowledgable in it like I am expected to do with them?
Most entertainers have other classes we play, so we do know what it takes to be a successful combat player or a successful crafter. Do most who have a combat character know the in's and out's of being an entertainer? Probably not, if in's and out's excludes the fastest buff macro and being afk all day while you grind away.
*small smile*
I know I babbled a bit...but this is the heart of why I am a dancer. If this is taken away from us, then I don't know how I can be considered an elite profession, like a doctor, smuggler, tailor, bounty hunter, or what not. I have been each of those....and you know what? Dancer is much more difficult then any of them. No one expects me to be there 23/7. No one expects me to jump whenever they call. No one calls me "hey dancer...come heal me", they actually use my name when I wear my other monikers, ..........but not dancer. 
Message Edited by Oqua on 09-30-2004 05:22 PM
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:15 pm
#8
Any kind of consumable that can be traded via vendor or secure trade to another party and provide healing or buffing of any level without the need for a live entertainer to give it will make us obsolete. In a post recursive macro/buff bot world all these former buff bots will now be used to crank out healing and buff consumables as thier main does whatever they do. Start recording bot, go play on main, oh bots done, start new recording and repeat. Bots, while maybe not 23/7 afk, will still have a use and will still cut into what is supposed to be live performances. People will stock up on healing/buffing vids, even if produced by a live ent, and never go into a cantina again, effectively turning us into crafters (FYI I Hate crafting). Thats why I came up with my plan, making us more available, and still requiring live ents, even if remotely located.
Electro
Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:26 pm
#9
Creating videos for healing/buffing would make the only economically viable entertainer the crafter who makes the videos. Everyone else will be left as viable as they are now with respect to the buffbots. This is not a solution as far as I see things.
It would be better to just remove mind buffs from the game entirely.
Message Edited by Electro on 09-30-2004 07:30 PM
Drygo
Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:51 pm
#10
/sigh
Well, I think many of you are making assumptions on how to "make" a holo video. There are ways to put this idea into reality without doing anything remotely resembling crafting, without allowing hundreds of factory output per day, and without allowing it to be afk doable. There are also ways to put this into fruition without using it for everything (ie, maybe just for buffing, not healing), so people would still have to visit the Cantina.
Please remember, I am not advocating making Cantinas useless. I still want people to go need to go there. But, there are ways to incorporate ideas that allow for Cantina viability and still use other ideas to make buffs, for example, more accessible. It does *not* have to be either/or.
And, yes, I do like the broadcast idea in the other thread, I like it a lot. And, this thread isn't really supposed to be about holovideos. It's just an example that easily comes to mind. It's really more about why we feel we must be so stringent about forcing people to come watch us for everything, every single time. I don't see the need for that personally. Even though, yes, of course, people *should* have to go to Cantinas sometimes because that's a huge part of why we entertain. Just...like I said, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I don't understand why it has to be.
Oqua
Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:30 pm
#11
just wondering why it's absolutely necessary to make people seek out a live entertainer for a buff,
I am not making any assumptions.
I am going by what you all are saying. If someone needs buff/heals (an entertainers viable job), they don't have to seek out a liveentertainer.
Thats basically what you are advocating as an alternative or compromise.
I thought that is what we were fighting for though...having to seek out a live entertainer for these jobs as opposed to going to a bot/zombie?
I am just trying to understand what we are advocating then if its not this...I don't like to make assumptions...I don't like not knowing the facts about things...why I keep asking and asking (so not trying to argue with you, as I know you love the entertainer professions dearly).
If you can help me understand how we can foster the growing entertainer community (which is something we should be doing, especially in light of the possibility of ridding the galaxy of bots/zombies) with these holo things and/or the broadcast idea...how we can not make it seem like another "replacement for a live entertainer"...
Then I wish to listen and learn...and help advocate something that will save a profession I love.
But if its something just placed there as placation for the masses who are just looking for their "quick fix" and not caring one iota for a profession they are aiding in destroying....then I don't know if I (andother entertainers)will be able to find common ground or agreement in said proposals.
This has nothing to do with anyone watching me or me not wanting to craft (I craft extensively already, so its not a big deal to me...and I really don't give a hoot if I am dancing for my own pleasure or for a throng of people).
This again has to do with wanting to save our profession...both with up and coming performers as well as with our respect and viability in the SWG community.
Eaca
Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:40 pm
#12
I'm not sure how you see the broadcast idea being a replacement for entertainers. For the broadcast to work there has to be a real live entertainer on the other end for the person to watch. Since the number of locations would be limited (lets say nyms, science outpost on endor, dath outpost on dath, and MO on dant) and the number of recievers per location is limited (say 2 per) then only a max number of 8 people could be being serviced by remote (but still live) entertainers. Now they either need to wait in line or ask one of the guys that is using the terminal where the entertainers are, then travel there themselves for live healing. Live entertainers are free to do as they've always done and congregate in central locations, while still providing off peak healing services to those on adventure planets. Broadcast centers don't replace entertainers any more than the ID booths replaced ID's they just let us broaden our service area (while still leaving preference to local entertainers for faster heals and higher buffs)
Drygo
Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:42 pm
#13
Oqua wrote:
just wondering why it's absolutely necessary to make people seek out a live entertainer for a buff,
I am not making any assumptions.
I am going by what you all are saying. If someone needs buff/heals (an entertainers viable job), they don't have to seek out a liveentertainer.
Thats basically what you are advocating as an alternative or compromise.
I thought that is what we were fighting for though...having to seek out a live entertainer for these jobs as opposed to going to a bot/zombie?
Hmm. Well, I'll be honest with you. That's not really what I was fighting for. I was fighting for making real entertainers, the ones who want to actually *play* their chosen profession economically viable and part of the interdependence in the universe of SWG. And, that's not mutually exclusive to having to have people watch me live.
I am just trying to understand what we are advocating then if its not this...I don't like to make assumptions...I don't like not knowing the facts about things...why I keep asking and asking (so not trying to argue with you, as I know you love the entertainer professions dearly).
If you can help me understand how we can foster the growing entertainer community (which is something we should be doing, especially in light of the possibility of ridding the galaxy of bots/zombies) with these holo things and/or the broadcast idea...how we can not make it seem like another "replacement for a live entertainer"...
Then I wish to listen and learn...and help advocate something that will save a profession I love.
But if its something just placed there as placation for the masses who are just looking for their "quick fix" and not caring one iota for a profession they are aiding in destroying....then I don't know if I (andother entertainers)will be able to find common ground or agreement in said proposals.
Trust me, it's not all about placation. Because, for example, one of my reasonings for liking the idea of a holovid was so that I could spend more time socializing, teaching and actually "performing" (sync dances, etc.) with other live entertainers. I find that sometimes buffing gets in the way of this. As I said, I remember exactly what it was like before buffbots appeared. I remember spending most of my time buffing, and not having enough time to do the other things that I liked about dancing. I don't really consider it placating to try to find ways to help the combat community get its buffs if it means that live dancers are economically viable, while freeing up time that we might otherwise be buffing to actually perform and socialize.
In other words...holovideos would allow me to do both...that is, once again be economically viable and part of the interdependence, while at the same time giving me more live time to socialize, teach, and perform. It's a win win situation, in my book. Because, in a world without buffbots, if things stay as they are, if I want to be economically viable, I don't have as much time to socialize and perform. Holovids would *expand* my choices of gameplay, and allow me to do more things that I want to do in game, while being able to eek out a living using my dancing skills all at the same time.
Also? An added bonus?A holovideo would presumably allow me to buff myself, which I consider to be the #2 dancer issue, right behind buffbots.
This has nothing to do with anyone watching me or me not wanting to craft (I craft extensively already, so its not a big deal to me...and I really don't give a hoot if I am dancing for my own pleasure or for a throng of people).
This again has to do with wanting to save our profession...both with up and coming performers as well as with our respect and viability in the SWG community.
Message Edited by Drygo on 09-30-2004 08:57 PM
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