Dancer Archive
Thread: Why is it important to force people to come to the Cantina?
Oqua
Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:00 pm
#14
Hmmm...
I was going to type out this (i.e. a different one then the one below)response but I don't think you will understand...and I won't agree with you.
When you start out a post by saying "why does a person have to seek out a live entertainer for our services" I think that just about says it all for me. I mean that doesn't sound like someone "playing" their character...and no, I am not needing tons of adulation from a crowd. What I do want is the respect that other professions with a service have. That doesn't have a ding dong thing to do with makingpeople watch me I don't think.
You haven't answered any of the questions I had concerning your proposals. I know it frees up time for you, but why isn't it okay for you to have that time and still be viable? Why is it that we are the only professions that have to look for a way to fill in the demand when we don't jump on cue?
And yes, I think its just semantics that you don't call it placating. If there were not an outcry for this by the spoiled combat classes, would there even be this discussion? I dont' think so...so I can only call a spade a spade.
What about healing xp? How is that going to get to up and comers if no one is coming to where they are? Why do I need to bother with that if I can just grab my vid, you get your money, and I am off to kill uber things?
Again, not being argumentative, just trying to see it from all angles...and I don't see this really "fixing" anything that I was worried about with buffbots and zombies being prevalent.
Message Edited by Oqua on 09-30-2004 09:03 PM
Ingrata
Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:13 pm
#15
/agree
lycanthropy wrote:
cause if all we did was dance in the streets, and in the woods it would seem sorta odd, and i might feel like a homeless street performer.
Drygo
Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:45 pm
#16
Oqua wrote:
Hmmm...
I was going to type out this (i.e. a different one then the one below)response but I don't think you will understand...and I won't agree with you.
When you start out a post by saying "why does a person have to seek out a live entertainer for our services" I think that just about says it all for me. I mean that doesn't sound like someone "playing" their character...and no, I am not needing tons of adulation from a crowd. What I do want is the respect that other professions with a service have. That doesn't have a ding dong thing to do with makingpeople watch me I don't think.
You're right. I don't understand. Not sure why someone making a holo recording is not playing a character, nor am I sure why someone buying a holo recording and watching one is not playing a character.
You haven't answered any of the questions I had concerning your proposals. I know it frees up time for you, but why isn't it okay for you to have that time and still be viable? Why is it that we are the only professions that have to look for a way to fill in the demand when we don't jump on cue?
It is okay for me to have that time and be viable. Why isn't it okay for me to want to use some free time to make a holo recording, maximize my slow time and put some vids on the bazaar so that later on while I'm out playing in a band, I can have people pick up my vids on the bazaar and I can make some extra cash? I could still choose to buff live if I wanted to. This is just giving me extra options of what to do with my time. Why is this not viable to you? Why do you think this is me trying to jump through hoops for someone else? Why can't you accept the fact that this is how I would like to play and that I see this as me being able to make different choices of how I spend my time? Why do I *have* to do it live? Why is my choice to make a vid to put on the bazaar to make some money while I'm out doing other things less of a valid choice than someone who only wants to do it live? This is about me making money selling buffs by having something out on a vendor while I'm out doing something else. (Just like a crafter might do). This isn't about placating anybody else. This is about me wanting to be out performing while making money for myself. The added bonus is this is also a "win" for the combat player. Should I spite my nose just to cut off my face? I know not everyone likes the idea of holovids. But, I do. I like it a lot for a number of reasons, the least of which is to accomodate someone else who has little or no respect for me or my profession. Credits is credits. This is just another option for me to make some while I'm off doing other things. And, I *like* that option. It has absolutely nothing to do with placating anything except my own wallet. I look at this as me gaining benefits, me gaining new content to play with, me getting extra money that I might not otherwise get because I'd rather be performing at a certain time.
This is about becoming economically interdependent within the universe of SWG. That's all. We have the buffs, that's our money maker. It doesn't have to detract from performing, socializing, etc. And, if it were up to me and I were designing it, I would make it non afk'able. We would have to play the game to make these videos. We'd be recording (not crafting.). And, we'd sell them.
Look. I'm out performing one night. Someone asks for a buff. I say no. That's my right, that's completely valid. But, do I get money for it? No. Earlier that day however, I made a holovid, I put it on the bazaar. I refer this customer to the bazaar or my vendor. They go buy it. I make money. No placating, just me earning a wage.
And yes, I think its just semantics that you don't call it placating. If there were not an outcry for this by the spoiled combat classes, would there even be this discussion? I dont' think so...so I can only call a spade a spade.
Perhaps. But, I kinda think people had the idea of making holo videos before buffbots existed, as added entertainer content. I have no proof of that, and it's entirely possible that the idea wouldn't have generated this much discussion right now if it weren't for buffbots. But, I'm pretty sure, someone, somewhere along the line, pre-buffbot (or in a world without buffbots) has thought of this idea before. I don't claim to have come up with it.
What about healing xp? How is that going to get to up and comers if no one is coming to where they are? Why do I need to bother with that if I can just grab my vid, you get your money, and I am off to kill uber things?
Well...for one thing, I'm not too keen on vids for healing. I think people should go to the Cantina's for healing. I'm more into this idea for buffing.
Again, not being argumentative, just trying to see it from all angles...and I don't see this really "fixing" anything that I was worried about with buffbots and zombies being prevalent.
Heh...and I do see it as fixing things. Not only fixing but adding content, allowing us to buff ourselves, giving us more options and choices to make money. And, all of that...yes, giving the combat players greater access to buffs. But, hey, that's just an added bonus to all the the personal bonusses that *I* would be getting. And, like I said, I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'm not going to say that I'm going to prevent myself from getting extra cash just because the nasty little combat player is going to get an added benefit.
Message Edited by Oqua on 09-30-2004 09:03 PM
And, I know, I know...we keep talking about holovids. But, please keep in mind (all the rest of you responding), that it doesn't *have* to be holovids. My whole point to this thread is that I never understood why people felt it so completely necessary to force people into coming into the Cantinas. There are other options, and there's a middle ground, that could actually *benefit* us.
Because really...be honest...we all have not wanted to buff at one time or another. Having options of "creating" buffs, in some form or another, which allow us to make money through selling on vendors (or storing them up, and applying a buff in 1 second via a command--someone else's idea in another thread), frees up *our* time to perform and socialize, while allowing us to still be part of the economy and interdependence.
Some people just want to get rid of buffs altogether. And, yes, that would certainly free up my time to perform and socialize. But, the point here...the point I have always had even though I never really made it clear because it was overshadowed with the whole buffbot thing...but, the point is, and I've said it many times before, I just want *something* that allows me to be part of the economy and interdependence. It never mattered to me what it was. It never had to be buffs or anything remotely related to buffs. But, I wanted something, and this is something. And, it matters not to me whether or not anyone is there live watching me in order to get the benefit of whatever skill I have. I love entertaining and performing, and there are plenty of venues in which to do so. But, I have to be part of the economic interdependence for this game to work for me. And, it doesn't matter a hoot to me whether or not I do it live, as long as it's not afk'able...if that makes any sense whatsoever.
There are people and venues that want to see us perform live. And, *those* are the people I want to perform live for.
Message Edited by Drygo on 09-30-2004 11:59 PM
Rabenschwinge
Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:09 am
#17
hm...
Though slightly off topic, I would like to add that I consider some guild halls as very well alive place for dancers.
You can do heal wounds, damage, battle fatigue and buffs just like in a cantina. You additionally dance in the entrance, so that friends passing by can sit out in the sun and craft, chat or whatever, while you are dancing. Our guild hall has the advantage that their are mission terminals right in front of it, so when Janta hunters come and pick missions on this terminal (there or others in the city) they would see me and have a talk, tell me 'bout their hunts and so on...
Though slightly off topic, I would like to add that I consider some guild halls as very well alive place for dancers.
You can do heal wounds, damage, battle fatigue and buffs just like in a cantina. You additionally dance in the entrance, so that friends passing by can sit out in the sun and craft, chat or whatever, while you are dancing. Our guild hall has the advantage that their are mission terminals right in front of it, so when Janta hunters come and pick missions on this terminal (there or others in the city) they would see me and have a talk, tell me 'bout their hunts and so on...
Ikewe
Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:39 am
#18
Drygo,
I can see your point because I too have been asked for a buff while giving a performance. I chose to leave the troupe and provide the buff and then rejoin. Obviously not what I wanted to do but since I had my Master tag up... well there it is.
I would prefer not to have recordings in the game and without a fix in our current buff code I'd be against the remote viewing as well.
I don't like the idea of the video recordings because I think they put dancers on unequal footing just as the robot vendors do now. A robot can offer buffs all day and the players are nowhabitualized to use the vending machine. Those same players will eventually just stop coming to live players looking for a buff and just go straight to the new vending machine - the bazaar. So that mechanic for me just changes the image of the problem but it's still the same problem.
My problem with the remote viewing is that I still have about a 5% failure rate with buffs. What happens to that remote viewing patron if the buff doesn't take? They'll have to send me a tell, I'll have to respond, they'll have to respond... pretty soon I'll just wish I had them in front of me as it will just be easier/faster than going back and forth while I am trying to do whatever it was that I wanted to be doing instead of buffing.
I still support a few other options that make us viable outside the cantina but they actually get us outside the cantina. At one point someone proposed the idea of Ranger Camps being a place we could buff and heal. I like that idea as it integrates us more into the player base. We are *with* them as a part of the group rather than they have to come to us. The current situation with the cantinas (or where ever you buff) is like a drive through. Get in, get the order, get out. I think that in part leads to being undervalued as a profession. We will always have those types of patrons and they'll choose to get their buffs in the cantina. But for those who look at us and see an elite profession I think they'd be happy to be able to take us with them as part of the team.
But I'm also not in a big hurry to see any of these ideas implemented because as it is now we are a broken class. We will remain broken until whatever plan they have for the recursive macro is implemented. And for all I know we will still be broken after that plan takes effect. Until that day comes... sometime in the far far far distant future I'm guessing... I'll enjoy thinking about alternatives but I'm just not getting too excited about any of them, not even the ones I like.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Oqua
Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:12 am
#19
Drygo,
You are basically stating you wish to enforce in the eyes of people the thought that we don't need a "live" character for a buff/heal (I say heal because that is one thing that will be pushed as well more then not by the combat oriented people).
I see that as a slippery slope emphasizing once again that we don't need to be there.
Unfortunately we are coming off a very bad patch as entertainers, where we haven't needed to be there for buffs/heals (thanks to afk stuffies gone wild).
Do you see what I am talking about....why I would be concerned that this would not be the "way to go" to satisfy buffing, economic viability, and the integrity of our profession? When you start saying why seek a live entertainer out, that sends up warning flags for me (and I think I have good reason to think that).
Why can't I as an entertainer log on, buff for an hour or however long I wish to, and then go and do my thing elsewhere be it having fun with friends, crafting, or hunting? What I want is to make us viable as other classes in the game are...respected as other classes are...to where we can charge 10-12K for buffs (as other buffing classes do), still get customers, and then be able to say thats it folks no more buffs after soandso.
Why is that so hard to want? Why does my class have to be the one to have a way to be available nonstop to be viable? I don't see that with other classes that offer a valued commodity in the galaxy.
When I see other commodities I need available all the time, and when I don't have to go searching from planet to planet interrupting my hunting/daily activities to find said commodities....then I will think your plan is one we should push for.
Doing it without the above stated stipulation again sets us up as a class that isn't really to be respected/needed as the others are.....you said it best, this is about getting us to be economically viable with the rest of the community at large...lets make our buffs 3 hours long (either with more clothing, BE enhancement, food, or just plain making it so)...lets get rid of bots so people don't expect to just tip whatever (or nothing) and thats okay to do...lets remind people that we are an elite profession that takes many skill points and hours to master.
Why does it have to be that to get that, I have to do so in a way that might be seen as detracting from my profession?
Tandava
Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:58 am
#20
I really bang my head on the table when people talk at cross purposes and keep mis-communicating because they aren't really reading or listening or digesting things. Its almost like we refuse to listen to each other because we have a slightly varying opinion.
First of all Drygo did NOT say "why seek out live entertainers?"
Drygo said, "why force people into cantinas? or why cantinas anyway?"
Drygo did NOT say use the holovids for buffing/healing as a recording.
Please people, read, respect, consider, offer alternatives,we ALL want live entertainers to be helped here. But there is more than one way.
There are a lot of problems with current system which IS a Cantina system:
1. Cantina's are required because unlike doctors entertainers must be in a hotel, theater, cantina or private house in order to heal and buff somebody which is currently the primary economic sink and gathering exchange for experience most dancers currently use. Agreed?
2. Hotels and Theaters and private city cantinas are often not used because the main npc cities have starport facilities for mission and combat areas, are in a known location by all players, are easily findable using ingame search functions and are known repositories of dancers/musicians. Agreed?
3. The current system allows for unattended gameplay, with those using unattended gameplay setting up in the NPC cantinas or in the popular outposts because of 1. and 2.
4. A body of non-entertainer players have ALWAYS resented coming into the cantinas for forced healing. ALWAYS. From July 2003 on this has been an issue. Some players don't mind coming in to a cantina for the socializing, they will STILL come in to socialize no matter what changes and even if a holovid program is put in place because they put value onto socializing in person and the system does not warp their minds to refuse them that option. If people think we can gain respect in others eyes by making them do something they will resent...might want to ask around.
5. The main users of cantainas have always been entertainers themselves and a few support classes like ID, which has since been moved out of the cantina's to their own space, and doctors who earn much of their xp off of healing entertainers.That will not change or be affected by it. Additionally, because of #2 people will STILL come to the npc city cantinas because it isclose to the starport, cheaper to go in person, convenient and close by and they know where it is and have been trained to use it.
6. One of the proposed plan for holovidding required a live ATK entertainer for negotiation and transmission. This was the proposal by Eaca. The entertainer must be in a cantina, hotel or theater thereby supporting the population in that location. Anyone can register so all entertainer levels may be represented. XP is theorized that it might still be possible to be earned through the system. Enough negotiation decisions must be made as to make this nigh impossible for an AFK macro to cover thus removing buffbot competition for it. A lesser reward for it and the price and time and trouble encourages use of local entertainers while still offering a safety net for those who want an entertainer's services.This will still make most people go into a cantina to use the service, or reward rangers and droid engineers perhaps with additional utility.
So....
If anyone doesn't want to look at the system because they think it makes entertainers crafters it doesn't reread the proposal. No crafting.
If anyone doesn't want to look at the system because it means people will be buying a recorded image put on a vendor, it doesn't, reread the proposal.
If anyone doesn't want to look at the system because it encouraged afk, it doesn't the transactions are forced to be live on live entertainer. Reread.
If anyone doesn't want to look at the system because it will destroy cantinas, I highly encrouage you to read the above points then reread the proposal, in many cases it enhances cantina experience and use.
If anyone is worried that nonMasters would be left out, it doesn't I encourage more discussion on how you think all levels will be safeguarded.
If anyone thinks it destroys socialization for entertainers with entertainers, it actually makes it easier, reduces lag, potentially cuts into all buffbot traffic, allows an entertainer an easier time in dealing with their priorities and gives them more tools to manage their economics and fun time. Please reread Eaca's example.
If people truly thing it encourages people to stay away keep in mind, those that resent cantinas will ALWAYS resent cantinas, this is the only solution I have ever seen that can reach out to those people and make them happy for entertainers and possibly bridge agap with them through a live player solution.
This is the only suggestion I've seen that encourages contacts where contacts were never there before and allows the entertainer an additional leverage in selling their own services including performance and socialization to a contact.
This is the only suggestion I've seen yet that makes us more accessible to all players at all times of day which is the primary excuse for buffbots while NOT interrupting our regular play.
We get respect by doing our own thing and enjoying it and making the gameplay of others more valuable or enriched. This suggestion preserves that.
I'd love to see other suggestions. I happen to likeEaca's one a lot.
I also like being more mobile as an entertainer, knowing I can do my own thing and still help people who ask through the registration system or point them to other registered entertainers. If you're a master entertainer and you don't NEED the credits or XP and there are others on, don't register or point them to others, simple enough.
Oqua
Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:06 am
#21
Tandava,
With all due respect I did read, and reread his posts...and he did say that about live entertainers. And he did say he wanted to be able to buff with vids, andbe viable and not have it interfere with his performing.How did I not understand that correctly? Please don't intimate that I am not reading or not trying to understand what he and others are saying. If I wasn't trying I would not be asking questions. 
I am not saying he meant it like he wants bots or anything, so please don't try and twist it to where I am saying that.
You read my concerns, and you still haven't answered them...no one has. *small smile*
I am not going to go long winded in what I am saying, I am merely going to again say why do I have to do this in my profession to be viable...especially when other professions don't get this asked of them?
No one is able to answer that other then, we have to give the combat people something that will seem like we are working with them. Again, I ask then lets do it for all classes if you expect me and many to leap up and down for the said "compromises" that are being thrown about.
I am all for having my free time, but I should be able to have that and still be viable shouldn't I, without having to do this holovid/get me to the masses fastest? Or no..since I am an entertainer?
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-01-2004 08:07 AM
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-01-2004 08:10 AM
Tandava
Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:15 am
#22
I didn't address my response at you Oqua so please don't take everything as directed at you. We seem to have a lot of that happening on forums where people take things personally and invent attacks to be defensive against. I think you've said a lot of valid things but my post wasn't addressing them. I did want to clarify some points in reference to what the proposal could be and what it wasn't since there seems to be confusion in many of the posts. I didn't really break down Drygo's so I apologize if that was confusing.
I'd rather people discusspoints and come up with alternatives rather then keep saying I don't like it no or go without offering alternatives.
Oqua
Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:30 am
#23
When I have been quoting Drygo as saying that about live entertainers and holo stuffies, I logically can surmise that part of it is addressed to me...I think you can even see where I would get that inference yes?
If you didn't mean me..then thats fine too...no harm no foul.
Again though my question isn't getting answered by anyone. And I think its the most important question we are asking as a profession...one that will set a precedent for us and any MMO that has commodities offered/needed in the economy of said MMO.
Here is the suggestion I and many others have stated, yet you all seem to try and ignore it and pound home a "placating compromise" solution.
How about lets get rid of bots/afk zombies...let the dust settle..and let entertainers meet the need. I don't think the game will come to a screeching halt (it hasn't when other professions aren't there immediately).
Tandava
Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:41 am
#24
It is not about placating.
And Eaca probably should never have used the word "compromise" This seems more like a war of semantics then a debate on a proposal.
You resent having to do anything different,change playstyle, implement different content, change the way entertainers interact with clients if nobody else also has to change things. I can understand that, but I would rather convince you this is NOT about forcing you to do anything different. I would rather convince you to support this because it enriches what dancers and entertainers can experience.
But I liked the proposal because it sounded FUN.
It increased for me the experience of a dancer.
It gave new toys not just to me but to possibly rangers, droid engineers, and anyone utiziling the facilities.
It actually is a better way for me to connect and find people needing my services.
It looks and feels more like a star wars solution so it increases immersion in a paradigmn
It offers an additional ways to get around AFK entertainment
It sounded like a way to make npc cantinas a nicer more atk environment
It allowed those people that wanted to heal and buff the highest possible visibility while helping those that don't hide better
It is purely voluntary and only compliments the current setup in place.
This isn't about placating or compromising anything, its about fun and helping others while making my own experience more cool and streamlined. By getting better relationships with those who have to use our services.
Letting the dust settle and wait and see is a passive response and when presented with an option that sounds more fun and more efficient then the way we've always done things I go with it.
This to my mind makes things better then the way it was done in June 2003. This is an improvement of the whole system so it is a step forward. With or without buffbots the system can be improved, and in my mind should be.
Message Edited by Tandava on 10-01-2004 10:43 AM
Oqua
Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:56 am
#25
You resent having to do anything different,change playstyle, implement different content, change the way entertainers interact with clients if nobody else also has to change things
I am going to ask you for the last time to quit putting words in my mouth and trying to twist what I am saying to suit your agenda.
If you can't quote me correctly...and obviously don't know me...then don't try mmmkay? I don't see why thats so hard for YOU to do , yet you keep doing it.
I am for changing things...I have been adamant that things NEED to change....what I don't like is the way you are touting as the be all end all of things...and I don't like the way you are speaking to me. I have not spoken that way to you, yet you seem to be only about being antagonistic, rude, and saying things I didn't say.
I am for many of the changes that were stated in that stickied thread...just because I don't jump up and down or think your way is the way doesn't mean I don't want to make our profession boring, doesn't mean I don't want change.
What I do want is a way for us to have our community energized, without having it compromised. I want us to be just as viable and respected as others......I don't think I am asking for the impossible or for the unreachable.
****side note**** Again, my last post directed at you for a bit..so please refrain from being antagonistic to me for a bit Tandava. I don't want this to denigrate into me getting really angry at any one on these forums, let alone another entertainer.
Message Edited by Oqua on 10-01-2004 08:57 AM
FuschiaD
Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:52 pm
#26
Here's a question for you, Drygo - why NOT the cantinas? Since day one of the game, the cantina has been the focal point of mind healing, as well as a general gathering area for players to sit, talk, rest, and do something besides blow up pixellated critters. I enjoy knowing that no matter what city I go to, there's one place in the city where I can find those who enjoy the same things I do. Aside from the healing and socialization benefits, cantinas encourage community.
Frankly, if we get too spread out we'll be even harder to find... and God knows, the combat community has moaned and groaned about the lack of entertainers as it is.
As far as other means of healing/buffing goes... I'm not sure there's a viable answer to that, at least one that I will really support. The broadcast idea is actually the one I like the best, followed by the holovid idea, and those are the ONLY two I will ever agree to.
The only thing I am fighting for as an entertainer is the integrity of my profession and the respect of the non-entertainer community. As long as that is the end result, I will support anything that gets us there eventually.