Dancer Archive
Thread: Downtrodden and very disappointed with Publish 10.
Spacey wrote:
You do understand that the Jedi are a combat class right? It sucks that there is no Entertainer FS tree, because the FS quests were supposed to benifit anyone, but to actually become a jedi would mean changing to a combat class which is what you are trying to avoid.
First of all, you misread my post. There ISa Force Sensitive Tree for Entertainers. There are not FS missions for Entertainers. You know those little random missions you're doing for NPC's? Yeah, we can't do any of those. We have xp conversion to FS xp, but we don't get any of the new missions all of the other playstyles got, and we don't even have a cantina in the Village. Go find one. Can't? Yeah, weEntertainers areuseless in the Village.
As far as your point about Jedi being a combat class, well, of COURSE I realize this. Which Star Wars do you think I've been watching since I was 1 year old?
See if you can follow this - I am a non-combatant. I do not fight, I have no combat skills. If gaining Force Sensitivity actually focused on my STRENGTHS rather than my WEAKNESSES, well lo and behold - I may get a Jedi, unlock a 2nd character slot, and train THAT character as a Jedi for combat, instead of in a non-combatant role. I sure don't want to gain a 2nd character and make him/her do exactly what I already do. How boring would that be?
I very well may try combat with my Jedi and LOVE IT. If I have Master Entertainer, Master Musician, Master Dancer, and 3/4 of Image Designer, what incentive do I have to just dump Image Designer skills (good god, do you KNOW what that grind is like, MURRRDER) and try out some random combat profession? Slim to none.
I gain a new character, AND they're a Jedi, and boom - I can try combat.
/swg.stratics.com/content/news/GeneralNews.php#newsitem1092635896,53735,
Thunderheart dug up an old post by an old member, , about Jedi...
In Concept.
Triforcer wrote:
Do you want to become a Jedi in StarWars Galaxies? Are you buying the game for that purpose? Will you do anything, perform any sacrifice, and put in as much time as is necessary to become a Jedi? Good. Because the SWG developers have told us that Jedi will be ?very veryvery rare?. They've told us that you can work towards being a Jedi, but not everyone who tries will become a Jedi. Does that worry you at all? Still determined to uphold the noble ideals of the Jedi? You are? Well, it's lucky that you came to me, young padawan because I know the secret of the developers' Jedi system. No matter what the developers say, I can explain to you right here how to 100% guaranteed become a Jedi Knight in Galaxies.
The secret to beating the developers' Jedi system starts right when your character enters the world. It does not matter what profession or race you pick, choose whatever you like. When you enter the world, do not shout in the public chat channels asking where some trainer or guild is. Approach someone individually, and ask them politely if they could give directions to you. If they do, do not tell them "thx". Say "Thank you, I appreciate the help and good luck to you!".
If you are the fighting sort, you may venture out into the wild to fight NPCs. Someone may try to steal your kill at some point. Do not publicly berate them in a chat channel, politely message them and ask if there was some mistake. If they continue in their behavior, move to another area. Also while fighting, you may see someone hopelessly overmatched and about to die at the hands of an NPC or mob. Do not mock them and watch them die, pitch in and help them avoid death. If the person is someone that kill-stealed you or someone you don?t like- still help them. Trust me, this all helps guarantee you become a Jedi.
If you want to be a Jedi you can feel perfectly free to participate in PvP, it won't hurt your chances. Be a bounty hunter, or join the Empire or Rebellion. When you engage a player opponent, it of course goes without saying that you won't use any bugs or exploits to defeat them. While fighting, do not taunt your opponent with phrases like "I WILL OWN U". If he attempts to RP with you during the fight, do the same. If you win the fight, do not send a /tell to your defeated opponent mocking him or praising your own skills. If you lose the fight, congratulate your opponent on a bout well fought. Also if you lose, do not broadcast your dissatisfaction to half the planet in the public chat channels. Win with grace, and lose with grace. Never attempt to deliberately harass specific individuals you?ve lost too in combat, just fight them under the above guidelines if you meet them again.
You may be a merchant or healer type character in SWG. When you are a merchant and want to become a Jedi, it is ok to sell your items at the price the market will bear. If someone comes up to you and urgently needs a heal or a piece of food but has no money, give it to them. Its only a little effort or one product, and you'll have made a friend for life. If you are selling things to new players (or players that don't speak your language that well) charge them what you would charge a veteran player. Do not take advantage of newbie gullibility to cheat people out of their last credit, the Jedi system can detect that.
When you yourself become a veteran player, help any new player that asks you for help. Its not always easy to make those first few credits or find that slicer training hall, and a little help from you goes a long way. Help those who ask, and never get angry at those newbies who do shout their questions in the public channels. Privately message them and answer their question, or direct them to someone/something that can. Newbiesdon?t always shout in the public channels because they are rude or stupid, some are just very new and don't know the etiquette. Be patient with them and make their first impression of SWG a fun and friendly one.
I have cracked the SWG developer Jedi system, and if you do these things I guarantee you will become a Jedi. Now will my advice guarantee you get Force powers and a lightsaber and have the title "Jedi Knight" in front of your name? No. Will my advice guarantee that other players or the server can recognize you as a Jedi in any definitive way, shape or form? No. In terms of how the game defines a Jedi, I could be completely wrong.
Have I tricked you when I told you that following these guidelines guarantees you become a Jedi? Again, No- doing the things above makes you a Jedi. All the things I have said here are how I have observed the best MMORPG people I?ve ever met act in-game. The classy people.The dignified people, the ones who never sunk down to the level of their opponents.The ones who never uses the anonymity of the Internet to inflict pain on other human beings. The ones who, while having fun in their own right, made their fellow players better people and their online community a better place.
And if you act in SWG like I said, you will be a Jedi too. You may never get Force powers, a lightsaber, or instruction from Yoda. But you will be a Jedi because you exemplify those virtues that the Jedi uphold. You will be a person that others recognize as someone with class, someone who deserves respect not because of a few pretty game-granted Force tricks but because you have earned it. These are the Jedi- and no other players, no developers, and no hardcoded Jedi systems can ever take that status away from those decent few.
Ralph Koster, Creative Director for : Galaxies, once said that no MMORPG policing would be necessary if people just treated each other online like they treat each other in real life - like human beings with real thoughts and feelings. Just treat your fellow players like that, and you are a Jedi in the truest sense of the word.
Even with game-recognized Jedi being rare, you'll still see a few of them in your time. You may even be one. But do the things I talked about and watch for others that also do them, and you'll know who the real Jedi are.
Triforcer
AllyaEcati wrote:
Well they also seemed to have left out a force sensitive tree for entertainers. Without the tree, there's really no point to having quests. However, to be a true jedi in the context of the game, (not talking force sensitive here) you're going to have to engage in combat. It's not excuse for leaving out the entertainers in force sensitivity, but if you really want to play a jedi you're going to have to give up all your current professions, combat and noncombat alike, for jedi skill trees.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 08-17-2004 02:11 PM
Spacey wrote:
You do understand that the Jedi are a combat class right? It sucks that there is no Entertainer FS tree, because the FS quests were supposed to benifit anyone, but to actually become a jedi would mean changing to a combat class which is what you are trying to avoid.
First of all, you misread my post. There ISa Force Sensitive Tree for Entertainers. There are not FS missions for Entertainers. You know those little random missions you're doing for NPC's? Yeah, we can't do any of those. We have xp conversion to FS xp, but we don't get any of the new missions all of the other playstyles got, and we don't even have a cantina in the Village. Go find one. Can't? Yeah, weEntertainers areuseless in the Village.
As far as your point about Jedi being a combat class, well, of COURSE I realize this. Which Star Wars do you think I've been watching since I was 1 year old?
See if you can follow this - I am a non-combatant. I do not fight, I have no combat skills. If gaining Force Sensitivity actually focused on my STRENGTHS rather than my WEAKNESSES, well lo and behold - I may get a Jedi, unlock a 2nd character slot, and train THAT character as a Jedi for combat, instead of in a non-combatant role. I sure don't want to gain a 2nd character and make him/her do exactly what I already do. How boring would that be?
I very well may try combat with my Jedi and LOVE IT. If I have Master Entertainer, Master Musician, Master Dancer, and 3/4 of Image Designer, what incentive do I have to just dump Image Designer skills (good god, do you KNOW what that grind is like, MURRRDER) and try out some random combat profession? Slim to none.
I gain a new character, AND they're a Jedi, and boom - I can try combat.
Warryyr wrote:This is, plain and simple, an unacceptable snubbing of Entertainers. And I, for one, am totally sick of being treated like crap by the Devs.It is unacceptable to be treated like crap by the other players of this game, mocked by other players who create PC NPC's to buffbot next to us and steal our money and enjoyment in the game, forgotten about consistently in new content time and time again.The conditions dealt out to the Entertainers in this game are unacceptable. Plain and simple.I was told I could pursue a Jedi. Yet, when I see the Village, Entertainers are nowhere to be found. No one cares. Hell, the Devs don't care.Sure, I could enlist help from friends to gain entry to the Village. But once I'm there, it's painfully obvious - I DON'T BELONG THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.*hangs head in disgust and sorrow*Message Edited by Warryyr on 08-17-2004 12:52 PM
I was discussing this last night with another entertainer. I think that entertainers have no voice on the dev team. Entertainers (a.k.a. the social professions) were the brainchild of Raph Koster (a.k.a. Holocron). Raph worked on Ultima Online, and as lead developer on SWG until a bit after launch. Search the internet -- he has written extensively on dynamics in MMORPGs and online communities. He's a visionary in the field, and perhaps someone who is ahead of his time and budget for game design. Entertainers (and to some extent, Politicians -- another dev ignored class) were designed to appeal to the "social" type of player: those people who primary enjoy MMOs for the company of other people. Most players have some social component to their gameplay, of course, but in theory some people will be happy by experiencing primarily social interactions.
Entertainers were designed to fulfill that role -- it's really a great experiment in the evolution of MMORPGs. The devs (Holo, I'm guessing, in particular) designed some game mechanics around supporting entertainers. Battle fatigue forces players to return to cities to seek the help of an entertainer. No player can forever remain in the field killing over and over and over again. They must return to a city, to a cantina in particular, to find an entertainer. Cantinas are, by design, intended as gathering places for players. Doctors can heal or buff anyplace -- we are tied to a set of locations where everyone must go. This gathering is intended to create some level of social interaction.
Unfortunately, Raph left, for reasons never really explained. With him, we lost the only support I feel we've had from the dev team. The idea of entertainer as a social profession is basically a joke. A bot, an NPC, something controlled by a script that's not even complicated can do our jobs (in gameplay terms) just as well as we can. That is not our fault. It's not the fault of other players for patronizing the bots, either. The devs are the ones who have abandoned us and the quest for a new kind of gameplay.
New songs and instruments will not fix this. The elimination or crippling of bots may give us some respite -- but the combat revamp looms large. I expect to see our mind heals be given to another class. Perhaps we will, as some combat players have suggested, become like "bards" in EQ -- something Holo said would never happen. There must be a dev committment to retaining the social playstyle. The devs have done an extremely poor job communicating to the playerbase that entertainers are important. After all, if we can be replaced by NPCs, how important can we be?
Ultimately, of course, all game decisions come down to money. The devs may be interested in expanding the genre, or in creating powerful art, or in telling a moving story, but their bosses are interested only in money. I can't fault them for that; I don't work for free either. The MMORPG market is currently driven by achievers -- people who devour content. They want a goal, a yardstick by which to measure their progress. (There's nothing wrong with that, of course. I would guess that many of us playing the game want to achieve in our personal lives, and in the game on some level.) Most of the people who grind for jedi, or have multiple accounts, or in fact who bought the game to begin with are achievers. That is to say, achievers are the people who BUY copies, at least in the short term. Selling copies of the game, and more importantly, selling subscriptions, are the goal of SOE.
In other words, by my conjecture, the vast, vasy majority of people do NOT buy the game to become entertainers -- the class does not sell copies, except to people who buy a second (or third) account to run a bot. Neither do new players generally see entertainers as a desirable class, after all, we can be entirely replaced by an NPC.
The problem with this is that social players are the most valuable players an MMORPG company can have. Achievers devour content. They consume it far faster than any company can reasonably be expected to create it. New theme parks, planets, etc. will all eventually be experienced by a player. Content is expensive to produce. Players will conquer everything in the game there is to conquer, except, perhaps, other players. People stick around, and continue to play the game, and continue to pay, due to interactions with other players. While combat can be a major portion of this interaction, socialization is at least as large a part. Social players will tend to be the ones behind the longest running guilds, the most organized player cities, and generally the communities that keep people paying month after month.
To me, the dev's continued disregard of our play style ignores our crucial influence on the game, and on the game's bottom line. We [used to] talk to everybody, for goodness sakes! We [used to] hear about goings on on different planets, different guilds and different professions. We see more new players than any other profession because they must come to our cantinas. We can influence them in subtle, but powerful ways. We like to keep people happy and enjoying the game -- not because of some game mechanic, but because it's part of our psychology. We should be one of the greatest assets for player retention SOE has, but we get ignored.
More and more, I think the loss of Raph signalled the death of entertainers, and the resigning of SOE to go the EQ route. The devs have done nothing to demonstrate their support of ents. The "recursive macro nerf" led to players lashing out at us. The devs do nothing to stop bots that mock player entertainers inside their macros (it happened on Chilastra). The devs make no statements in support of entertainers, except "we're against afk playing." It's not "we think at the keyboard entertainers are valuable and we apologize for sidelining their issues." Somehow, the devs need to make amends, or our valuable demographic will leave, and the game will become only a race against content consumption.
Gramon Blatt, ME/MM
PS Alright, I'm not sure if this is going to pass the word limit feature
. Apologies for being so long-winded. Also, I did not intend this post to deride achievers or any other playstyle -- it's only intended to give entertainers the credit they deserve.
Warryyr wrote:
AllyaEcati wrote:
Well they also seemed to have left out a force sensitive tree for entertainers. Without the tree, there's really no point to having quests. However, to be a true jedi in the context of the game, (not talking force sensitive here) you're going to have to engage in combat. It's not excuse for leaving out the entertainers in force sensitivity, but if you really want to play a jedi you're going to have to give up all your current professions, combat and noncombat alike, for jedi skill trees.
Nope.
Another character slot opens, and we can choose to get THATcharacter trained in Force Sensitivity. Mind you, they also have no skills whatsoever now - useless in combat and pretty much everything else in the game.How do they fit in?
Also, thereis aForce Sensitivity tree for Entertainers. It gives us a bonus to Mind Healing.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 08-17-2004 02:11 PM
It was my impression that the force sensitive trees were as follows:
Combat Prowess (all branches purely combat), Crafting Mastery (all branches purely crafting), Enhanced Reflexes (Ranged & Melee Defenses, Vehicle Control, and Survival Skills), and Heightened Senses (Injury Treatment for medics, Surveying, Persuasion kinda like jedi mind trick I guess, and Luck) Where is thereentertainer in that?
Granted I don't follow up on jedi extensively, but I was also under the impression if you opened a new slot, you'd have to redo all the force sensitivity quests for that character.
Also, regardless of how you get your jedi, it's still acombat oriented profession. If you're going to go beyond force sensitive, you're going to have to do a lot of combat.