Dancer Archive
Thread: Welcome to Ballet Class: Here's Your Poleaxe
The dancer profession does not make sense on many levels. The most popular subject where this occurs is unattendedness, but it is not the only one. Because the unattended player will simply abandon patricipation to gain somesort of advantage by manipulating the game world in a way that mimics live play in all mechanical respects, while being lifted from the constraints of playability that live players are under. This allows them to do superhuman feats such as dance straight for 22 hours for no pay in the same cantina, merely as an ornament to a primary character, city, or guild. These points have already been addressed in other posts, so I will not belabor them here.
Because suffice it to say that unattendedness is not the only abuse that dancers do in order to conquer the limitations of the game. Moreover, it is quite clear to me that some dancers, both unattended and live, see no real crime in manipulating the code in such a way as to throw away all sense of continuity and immersiveness for the sake of some personal advantage. But what they may fail to realize is that such abuses, while seemingly harmless at first, slowly but surely erode away any sense that this is a simulated reality in a fantastic age, and merely assert to both old and new players alike that we are merely playing a game...and a bad one at that.
For where was it that you heard any dance instructor or dancer assert that one will achieve a flawless performance if only they would wield the 75 pound poleaxe one handed while doing their routine? Or dance with the rifle in the hopes of a prima performance all without pulling the trigger accidentally killing three quarters of the house? Superhuman, no?
Yet such things seem to happen every day on the line servers, and ironically enough, are the standard practice of most dancers today. Now I know why you do it, and believe me, enough dancers on my server were more than willing to suggest I do likewise. "You don't have to complain about the floors being freshly waxed and slippery, Sirii. Just hold this combat knife, and you won't fall anymore!" My my! I wish I could tell my modern dance students to hold combat knives and poleaxes too so they wouldn't mess up my routines.
It can even get ugly at times. Dancers wouldn't even invite me into a group because I refused to hold a weapon. Why don't I? For one, I'd rather have the patrons look at me, rather than my weapon. Also, I have learned that a spontaneous fall can be much more entertaining than a flawless dance. Remember what our ultimate purpose is, and that is to be amusing. Perfection can get boring rather fast. Moreover, it gives you an opportunity to show the patron you are actually at the keys. No buffbot can say "oops" at a random fall.
Now does a harmless thing like a fall really, really justify packing heat under your fleshwrap? For one, I don't know how anyone could hide a T-21 in there. Indeed, one would argue that holding a dangerous weapon would make a dancer more inclined to mess up their routines. You try dancing with a 75 pound poleaxe and see how good you will do.
However, on the line servers, such breaks in continuity are pursued with great enthusiasm. Why? Because some characters would rather do something that destroys any manner of continuity in order to avoid a very harmless and benign effect. A fall.
Now what is a fall in this simulation? How is it handled in terms of the game mechanics? A fall is merely a flourish. Nothing more, nothing less. Falls have healing effects, garner one XP, and are treated in all intents and purposes as a flourish. The only difference between a fall and a regular flourish is that falls cannot be controlled (though this is debatable). They happen when they happen, and the only thing that can prevent such an event is if one holds a weapon while dancing.
Indeed, I have a hard time believing that the developers really intended it to be this way, but were merely unaware of negative player reactions toward falls, unaware of the ability of a weapon to reduce such falls, or unaware that the player base would go to any length to eliminate such falls, even if it means eliminating any sort of visual appeal for a dancer where the heart of the profession is that of visual appeal. Because I see the servers today, and I see nearly every dancer, save a handful (Sultrina, myself) hold all manner of viscious death, as if they intent the patron to simply ignore the fact that they are flailing a deadly weapon wildly. In fact, the patronsby in large do ignore it, since it is so commonplace.
Which makes me wonder what else the patronsare ignoring. Are they ignoring your dancing? Your clothes? Your avatar? Your dialouge? Have you "trained" them to overlook your weapon because its convinient for you, and by doing so, trained them to ignore all the other things that you hope they do take notice of? I think you are. Moreover, what kind of statement are you trying to put forward by holding a weapon? That your character shouldn't fall? Tell me this: if holding a weapon made you fall just as much as not holding one, would you still hold one? I think I know the answer.
Because I think the point has to be made that by holding that combat knife, you may be satisfying your ego at the expense of something far, far more destructive to our profession. One star me now, but its what I think. That your manipulation of the weapon loophole is more important than the continuity of the game. That you are more willing to brandish a dagger in your patron's face than suffer a mechanically harmless fall. That this is a broken game, where dancers who carry 75 pound poleaxes are better balanced than those who do not.
And when the game doesn't seem to mimic life in these small respects, who is to say they must mimic life in the critical respects, such as the stutter buff? Or unattended buffing? Its all connected. Now you can argue that falls should be eliminated or reduced. But can't you do that just as easily without the vibro knuckles as with them? What kind of statement do you make to the patrons and to new dancers by dancing with a weapon? It certainly doesn't reaffirm that the game makes sense. Because I learned a lot of things in ballet class. Pirouettes, jettes, arabesques, to name a few. But I never heard my ballet instructor said, "rule number one of dance: always hold your poleaxe."
First let me state for the record that I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for you Sirii, but our opinions diverge a little on this one.
Granted brandishing a polearm or rifle can be a bit unrealistic and something I don't actually care to see. The bladed weapons on the other hand do have some basis in RL dance. The Russian sabre dance springs to mind and I believe there are other instances as well in tribal or ritualistic dance. They can add avisual appealif handled judiciously. They are not an "end all be all" either.
Still Idon't care to fall the amount I do. The falls are FAR out of proportion to anyRL norm.I tried using VK's, but they never stopped me from falling, maybe I'm buggy (Lei has been known to be that times )? I have since stopped equipping weapons on a regular basis. In fact I can't remember the last time I did. I've stopped carrying my little dagger since I can't afford the room in inventory /giggle.
My main disagreement with you is in only statement:
For the most part I agree with Sirii, whom I have the utmost respect for. Equipping an item for the sole purpose of not falling is wrong. In a way, it's an exploit, albeit an extremely minor one. But consider this:
Last weekend, a friend of mine invited me to watch her troupe dance at a performance. It was a troupe of belly dancers. I in no way knew what to expect since I had never seen belly dancing before, but I was so excited!
It was the most amazing performance I had ever seen.
Ten minutes into the performance, I was struck with a revelation: SWG's exotic was belly dancing! What's more, there was one dance called the Sword dance, where they actually danced with a curved blade similar to the vibro blade. They would actually balance it on their hip while they danced, and on their heads as well.
As I mentioned in another thread, the only dance I equip a prop in is the Exotics, and I use a Ryyk Blade. If the devs changed it sothat you fall with weapons in hand, I would still use it.
Because now I know, I'm a belly dancer at heart!! 
to be danced with a weapon.
Try Formal2 the last 4 flourishes without a weapon,
then equip a 2H Curved Sword... (or any longer sword).
Also you get a really nice twirling effect on some of
the exotic dances when you use staffs.
So I use the weapons I use mostly for effects, to not
use any of them is cutting down your possibilites actually.
And maybe its the human nature to seek perfection, which
leads to the desire to "don't fall". And actually.. if
in RL the wielding of any weapon, and be it a swiss knife,
would lead to a flawless and perfect performance... expect
many more dancing props (weapons) in use :-)
Kreistor wrote:
For the most part I agree with Sirii, whom I have the utmost respect for. Equipping an item for the sole purpose of not falling is wrong. In a way, it's an exploit, albeit an extremely minor one. But consider this:
Last weekend, a friend of mine invited me to watch her troupe dance at a performance. It was a troupe of belly dancers. I in no way knew what to expect since I had never seen belly dancing before, but I was so excited!
It was the most amazing performance I had ever seen.
Ten minutes into the performance, I was struck with a revelation: SWG's exotic was belly dancing! What's more, there was one dance called the Sword dance, where they actually danced with a curved blade similar to the vibro blade. They would actually balance it on their hip while they danced, and on their heads as well.
As I mentioned in another thread, the only dance I equip a prop in is the Exotics, and I use a Ryyk Blade. If the devs changed it sothat you fall with weapons in hand, I would still use it.
Because now I know, I'm a belly dancer at heart!!
And I bet that you didn't see a single dancer fall in that troupe, did you?
I agree - weapons can be wonderful props! I don't think that they amount to an exploit if you use them to keep from falling, however I haven't brandished a weapon to keep myself from falling in a very long time. Siriiknows that this is one area that we differ in. Personally, as long as the weapon doesn't take away from the dance, I don't see anything wrong with equiping one (although a dancer weilding a dagger or staff while spazzing on a couple of the flos inBasic 2 might be frightening to watch!).
What I hate isn't the use of weapons, but the fact that we fall as masters. Its not at all in line with reality - when was the last time you went to a musical and saw the dancers fall on their faces?I'd give up dancing in RL if I fell that much!
I would most definitely continue to equip my vibroblade if it did not keep me from falling.I started equippinga weaponbefore I knew that itprevented fallingbecause I like the look. Its a little sexy, a little dangerous, not everyone wants to be a sticky sweet entertainer. Even if I could hold a fan or flower, I would stillchoose the knife.
The falls in this game are really not fair. Musicians NEVER fail, so why should we? Crafters do not critically fail nearly as much as we fall. Until they make falls more equitable, which I don't think will happen very soon, dancers will continue to work around them. No offense, but do you really needto fall to prove that you are at the keyboard? Try /welcome, /wink, /smile, or maybe "Hi how are you, what have you been hunting?" And no, you probably couldn't hide a t21 in your fleshwrap, (which you aren't doing, you're holding it in your hand), but I have 20 different outfits in my inventory too. Where am I hiding those, up my kazoo? I also manage to pull a kaduu andbinary load lifter out of thin air and all you need to build a house is to double click a deed and wait 5 seconds. Thats not realistic and does not mimic life. Games are not supposed to mimic life.
A few things.
First, VK's don't prevent you from falling. Drygo is a TKM and tried using the VK's while dancing because it would make more sense to do so, but they do nothing to help the falling issue. So, it's not just you.
Second, If I'm performing...I mean, actually performing, with my band, I don't use weapons at all unless the dance calls for them. When I am putting on a show, I believe that you're right...it does ruin the continuity and immersiveness if it's inappropriate.
But, even so, and third, I just think that the amount of falling is completely out of balance (no pun intended.) I'm levelling dancer on another server. He's at novice now, doing popular. And, I tried dancing without a weapon for a couple hours. And, I'm not even kidding, it looked like every 4th or 5th flourish, he would fall. I mean, I can't really be expected say "oops" every 5 minutes. People might think I'm afk spamming and ignore me. And, as a master, Drygo *still* falls at least once every 10 minutes. It's just not acceptable, IMO. So, yes, sometimes I choose to do the work around weapon holding thing, while trying to keep in mind what looks the most appropriate.
And, I don't really think we should compare ourselves to musicians. I don't want the musicians to play a sour note just because we fall. And, I don't even mind the fact that we do fall occasionally. But, the key word here is "occasionally." Once a day, fine. Once every 10 minutes, not fine. It's just too ridiculous. And, I'm much rather risk the non-immersiveness of wielding a tiny dagger, than the flawed non-immersiveness of falling 5-10 times an hour.
Falls are ugly, and destroy immersiveness for me far more than holding a small weapon such as a dagger, spraystick, or even a sword. On the other hand, people who dance with big old long vibro axes or huge rifles look like dorks.
I don't usually remember to equip a weapon when I start dancing, but if I start falling a lot then I do. I don't like doing it, but until SOE gives me a way to turn off or otherwise control falling, I will continue to prevent it the only way we can. We are given very limited tools, and we have to work within those boundaries.
The 30 second buff was an exploit, it got fixed. This is not an exploit - they've known about it forever, and they've done nothing.
06/16/2003 01:06 PM
Serae wrote:
Falls were added at the very last minute in the end of beta.
Out of interest, heres the actual patch note that refers to them:
Update Notes v48873
06/16/2003 01:06 PM
Entertainers: Added small % chance for a dancer to make a mistake when flourishing for a dance style that is near their skill level.
Well, if this were true it would be one thing. But, I don't think the % is small. I am not exagerating when I say that while levelling up my Tarquinas dancer last night, when I removed my weapon, I fell once for every four times I didn't fall. A 20% fall rate is *not* a small number. It's just annoying and ridiculous. One of the huge reasons I like to dance is because I like the way I look doing it! It totally ruins the enjoyment of watching myself dance when I literally fall once after every 5 flourishes! Argh!
kirah_ashlin wrote:
And I bet that you didn't see a single dancer fall in that troupe, did you?
Hehe, no not fall, but there were two dancers doing the sword dance. One was an expert dancer, the other was still intermediate. When they were dancing with the sword balanced on their heads, the intermidiate dancer's sword slipped from her head and she had to replace it. It was still incredibly impressive
kirah_ashlin wrote:
I agree - weapons can be wonderful props! I don't think that they amount to an exploit if you use them to keep from falling, however I haven't brandished a weapon to keep myself from falling in a very long time.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought this was a full blown exploit. Obviously it isn't since it isn't unbalancing in any way or give anyone a glaring XP advantage. I was merely trying to say that it's something some people do to break the code from working as intended, ie stop you from falling.
kirah_ashlin wrote:
What I hate isn't the use of weapons, but the fact that we fall as masters. Its not at all in line with reality - when was the last time you went to a musical and saw the dancers fall on their faces?I'd give up dancing in RL if I fell that much!
Actually, I notice that as a Master Dancer I only fall when doing the Exotics. When I dance other dances (I do Popular2 alot! I dance it at starports and call it my "Waiting for the Shuttle Dance" ), I can't remember the last time I've fallen. And I never use props for those.
I agree, when I do dance Exotic I think we fall a little too often. It would be hard to say how much is too much. Obviously we as dancers would say "Never falling is good! ", but I'm sure they'd like to keep falling in.
As for Musicians nto making mistakes, when I listen to a band play (when they're playing the same song 
) I notice that sometimes when someone flourishes they don't always sync up corectly. Could that be their "mistake"??