Dancer Archive

• Mini-games could be turned into possible income. (Casino games)
  
• Gateway to player events (Venue Rental, etc.)
  
• More interactive missions with higher payouts that are scaled to entertainer ability. (Deila's Fame System proposal, Theatre Quests)
  
• The spawning of random, unattackableNPC informants in cantinas (think instanced,objective-oriented NPC's like"the old man") that approach an entertainer with bounty or mission details. Those details are passed on to a *live* BH, or other mission taker. Once completed, each receives payment. Credits for the one completing the mission, and either credits or loot/reward items for the cantina-savvy entertainer.


• Bard-like abilities (This may step on the toes of Squad Leaders)


• Enhanced Battle Fatigue effects (Post Combat interdependence)


• Enhanced Performance Tools (Greater quality draws greater crowds)

[Edit: *Just realizes what the heck Panthu was talking about.* See below!]

[Disclaimer: Some of you responded to the original post, which has now been updated. The content may have changed. My apologies for any possible confusion. )

What elsemight we come up with? How do we improve the atmosphere of the cantina? What can we give the players that they can't already get?

Message Edited by Schardour on 03-08-2005 03:09 PM

I like all those... however, I don't think we should rule out PvP interaction. There are useful things we could do for PvP that would be mutually beneficial. The problems in the past have stimmed from buffs being a needed pre-PvP enhancement coupled with our ability to be botted and with no active play benefits for actually playing a Dancer/Musician with a PvP template.

One way to keep the interaction with out slipping into those pitfalls would be to offer a service that is not needed directly before combat, took some interaction on both parties' parts, and couldn't be botted. Another safe guard against future incentives to bot could come in the form of helpful dabbler's skills for PvP and keeping this contained in one line so it actually could be dabbled in by PvPers (or skipped by Ents who don't want the line at all).

I think, the service could be information. Our gain could be the PvE style informant gameplay you described (with rewards for us in the way of loot and creds) and perhaps faction points. The possible useful perks for dabblers or full time Ents could be some ways to avoid combat, but not actual combat abilities. For PvE combat, we would give missions instead, like you said.

The mini-games, of course I love. The interactive missions, I think Deila's Fame works great for that.

The other things I'd like for us to be able to do deal purely with creative control (enhanced group commands, enhanced flo control, so on) and massive player event tools (travel party games, decorations, ability to rent out exclusive venues).

Edit: When I wrote "I like all those" the list was much shorter and read like this:

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Schardour wrote:

• Mini-games could be turned into possible income. (Casino games)
  
• Gateway to player events (Venue Rental, etc.)
  
• More interactive missions with higher payouts that are scaled to entertainer ability. (Deila's Fame System proposal, Theatre Quests)
  
• The spawning of random, unattackable NPC informants in cantinas (think instanced, objective-oriented NPC's like "the old man") that approach an entertainer with bounty or mission details. Those details are passed on to a *live* BH, or other mission taker. Once completed, each receives payment. Credits for the one completing the mission, and either credits or loot/reward items for the cantina-savvy entertainer.

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Message Edited by Panthu on 03-08-2005 02:56 PM

DAOC had something that the bard did - a battle song it was really cool and stirred up the troops I would love to see that implemented or something similar.

I also think we as players can create our own content - host parties - events - plays - dances etc and charge for admission to that type of event or rely on tips either or.

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Schardour wrote:

At Drygo's request, I've opened a focus thread with the intention of accumulating new ideas for income and player interdependency that may replace buffing as one of our skillsets.

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What I would like to see is a return to the original idea.

Battle fatigue. I think what we need to do is increase the negative effect of battle fatigue in specific game areas... High end PvE and PvP specifically. I am not suggesting this be a "time sink" for combat players. I think this would go a long way to bringing back the use of camps and encouraging entertainers to be in combat groups (like we used to have to play.)

To make this work though the developers are going to have to think of a way for entertainers to make a sizable income that is NOT based on players tipping. We learned the hard way that this just does not work. My thought is that instead of tipping lets base income off of mission payouts. Skill and group size scaled entertainer/cantina missions for those entertainers that sit in the cantina and give combat missions a boost if they group has an entertainer and that entertainer is in range to recieve the payout.

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PoetDancer wrote:

Let's put it into concrete certainties, hopefully requiring not too much of a dancer's attention, so we can give our greater attention to our show.

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Or potentially turn all entertainers into bots. Sorry, I still disagree with this. But this thread is ideas for more content, so let's have at it.

I'm still all over the combat stuff. Some of the best times I've ever had were going with groups on trips to places like the spider cave on Dathomir or the Jinda caves on Endor. I'd buff them beforehand, then tag along and hide behind the ranged folks. It was exciting and a lot of fun. Would be even better if I could do something to help DURING the fights.

As a non-entertainer, I only offer these ideas because I feel they would enhance the cantina experience for both entertainers and their patrons. Although most emphasis should be on what entertainers can bring to the masses, I think you also need to consider what the masses can bring to the entertainers. What you do need is more real interaction, which is a two-way thing, but right now the game mechanics only seem to emphasize the one-way healing/buffing from entertainer to fighter.

I've always thought that the entertainer should have tools to accomodate multiplayer minigames, similar to a dealer in a casino. Right now, any method of "handing out cards" or "putting money in the pot" is rather cumbersome, and in my in-game gambling experience, I am heavily reliant on tells and trust to keep the games fair. We often need a "dealer" who keeps tabs on everything and makes sure nobody cheats, but that in itself is a major problem because the dealer can't play, he can cheat, and he can help others cheat.

I think entertainment by speech needs another look. There is a lot of potential here, but all the interruptions in spatial (speech, emotes, system messages, etc.) destroys most of the possibilities. If a person is singing, I want to read the lyrics WITHOUT DISRUPTION. I want the singer to be able to synchronize the lyrics with the flourishes of an accompanying band. I want to see them able to use italics, bold, underline, different fonts, different colors, etc. to reflect the mood of the singing. Same kind of deal for other text-based entertainment. If I want to listen to a performance group, I need a way to focus on that group's performance, like a pop-up channel window that only the performers can type in. ANYTHING to help distinguish it from spatial. Again I want to emphasize that this isn't just a change for entertainers to enhance performances, but also enhances the patron experience (not to be confused with XP or exp).

I would like a way to reward real entertainers with experience and withhold experience from the others. Even though dancing and playing is "passive," the rewards should go to the entertainers who are actively trying to entertain me. Should my experience go to some AFK skank who just happens to be in the "group" I'm watching, or to those whom it truly deserves to go to? But then again, if I am getting my kicks from that AFK skank, then I should have the option of only rewarding her. This is one reason I don't particularly like the whole grouping aspect as it works now. It's too socialistic - people don't play their part, yet they still expect (and get) the reward. I am disappointed as my potential experience has been given to people who haven't contributed to my entertainment, and my entertainers are disappointed because they aren't given their full reward.

On a related note, I would like to be able to reward entertainers for any entertainment, regardless if it's dancing, playing music, or something else. If such "entertainment" experience were needed, then maybe it would encourage players to actually provide quality performances. (I encourage you not to get bogged up in details of how such a system would work - just stick with the general idea and its intent for the sake of my argument.) More quality performances = more reason for people to visit the cantina aside from healing/buffing.

I happen to think that it's too easy to be a "quality" entertainer. I'm not saying that people who play the profession don't work hard at it, but that it's too easy to make yourself look, heal, and buff like a good entertainer. In a game where your looks and your healing and buffing abilities are your primary draws (instead of actual entertainment), healing and buffing are too easy. Seriously, there is no easy way for a non-entertainer to look at different entertainers in the cantina and think, "this woman is terrific" and to another think, "this woman sucks." There is no way to gauge the performance aside from the numerical aspects of healing and buffing, so I can't reward them for a good or bad performance - I'm left with rewarding them for the fact that they healed/buffed me, or because they were hot.

I hear that there are times when it is advantageous for musicians not to play synchronized? For example, a higher-leveled musician will "steal" experience from a lower-leveled musician even if they're playing the same song, same instrument, at the same proficiency? It makes no sense to enhance the lower musician's experience by playing disjointed music and STILL give the same rate of healing, or any healing at all. If I am receiving healing from such a performance, it is counterintuitive to actually tip. In this case, it's the fighters who get the raw deal - you get the experience, they have to listen to crap.

And not to be rude or anything, I don't think entertainers should ever be useful during a fight. If you want try and help with the fighting, then go in there with your fists, knife, CDEF weapon or whatever and fight. If you want to be USEFUL, then pick up a combat profession and learn how to fight.

I hope this is helpful for you.

= Andrew
Chilastra.Palacek

Message Edited by Jagii on 03-07-2005 11:39 PM

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Jagii wrote:
What you do need is more real interaction, which is a two-way thing, but right now the game mechanics only seem to emphasize the one-way healing/buffing from entertainer to fighter.
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And what ever this "something else" is that we are talking about it needs to do this above quote. Any changes to our interdependance, game mechanics, or performance enhancments, needs to increase two-way interaction. I would also like to see us have a real give and take for something we need among one or more of the other playstyles.(Not hopefully in the form of tips although it could fall under that heading).

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Jagii wrote:

And not to be rude or anything, I don't think entertainers should ever be useful during a fight. If you want try and help with the fighting, then go in there with your fists, knife, CDEF weapon or whatever and fight. If you want to be USEFUL, then pick up a combat profession and learn how to fight.

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Well ok I'm odd but I do enjoy the buffing. I enjoy the fact that Imaji and I as a team can coordinate and deliver buffs fast and reliably. I enjoy the fact that we can manage a group of people to move them through as quickly as possible. I also enjoy the interaction but I do enjoy the mechanics and the control.

Now what I would like to see is more reliance on the performance affecting the buff. Not just stacking and spamming flourishes but some way to measure the timing and mix of the flourishes so it is some measurement of entertainment effort.

I would also like to see our skills more useful in the field. Let us heal BF in camps, let us store and apply that second buff in the field, make it worthwhile to take an entertianer along just as it is useful to take a doctor on. Take the bard idea and tweak it, perhaps we can reduce incap time for mind pool if we are present. Maybe we can distract and sooth the savage beasts by playing to reduce team damage from them.

I do take my fists to the field, as a TKM, but I would also like my second mastery to add value there as well.

I failed to add that I'm not in support of mini-games or increased quest payouts as our replacement for buffs and income sources. It removes us from the interdependency and I think that is important. If all we get are our own little set of games outside the larger game we will only become more isolated as a profession.