Dancer Archive
Thread: Why Deny is just another way to say I want more tips
I know there are some other 'petitions' on this, and it recently came up a LOT in the thread on what things we'd like to see Ravenmist bring forth to the devs, but I wanted to post what seems to be an alternate, and minority opinion.
During discussions here, people constantly refer to 'if I were performing in real life' or 'it would be more realistic if I could'.. One example might be the ability to move\walk while dancing, even at a very reduced rate. Why? Because it makes sense in the context of our character types, that we would be able to slowly move one direction or the other even while dancing.
On the issue of the ability to /deny, however, all of those who support it seem quite willing to throw reality, and any role play, out the window.
Reality is that a dancer or musician has no physical means for stopping someone from watching them dance, or hearing them play music. If you are in the center of a room dancing, there is no way that Jerkoff McCoy is not going to see you if he is sitting at a table three feet away. Our healing is a product of our dancing, not anything else, so there's no way to stop him from healing, either.
What I really hear people asking for is a way to punish people who aren't tipping "enough" (a subjective opinion) or who don't tip at all - at least not you. In the recent thread for the dancer correspondant, I didn't see very many people bring up denial of service as a means to get rid of obnoxious customers - but I did see a lot of people whining about not making enough tips to support themselves, needing money, etc.
Stop trying to look for ways to punish people or force tips and start looking for ways to improve your own dancing, presentation, or location in order to increase them. A friend of mine on StarSider recently came to visit Keren from Rori, and was pleasantly surprised at the huge increase in tips. She still loves Rori, but realized that her dance style and presentation were not her issue in making tips - her location was.
Logistically speaking, such a feature is a near impossibility. Consider a group of 5 dancers. 3 dancers choose to /deny someone, because they've never been tipped by him before, don't think he tips enough, or they deny on principle until they receive up front payment - whatever. Said person has an *utterly* black mind bar. It would be very difficult, I would imagine, to make it so that Ent Healing XP is only shared among the two members of the group who are NOT denying service, not to mention the fact that the other three don't deserve that XP. If they've chosen to deny service, they should get no benefit from those who are still providing it.
Same goes for group XP bonuses. If there's one customer, conceivably, you should get no group bonus if you have denied him services and everyone else has not. Just as you should get no /watch bonus, which is increased or shared among group xp.
Ultimately, I guess my point is that I wonder why it is that so many people seem to have such a hard time making tips. I can easily make 10-20K a day, and that's with stopping, travel to other areas for shopping, etc. I know lots of dancers who make near the same amount. I'm sure there are dancers making far less, but please, rather than expecting the game mechanics to change that for you, look at whether you are dancing for the sake of it or truly entertaining your patrons. If you truly believe you are, and still have the problem, analyze where you dance, and when. Sometimes, it's good to be in certain cities at certain times of days. Sometimes, a city is either too crowded or too sparse in population. Sometimes, there are already established regulars, or a saturation of entertainers.
Whatever the case, look to these sorts of things before asking for a change to the game mechanics that completely ruins any sense of 'reality' in our profession.
No, ... tips is only one reason for such a thing (not that I support it).
The other, and by far bigger reason for this feature is those that harrass dancers, or bring in the huge pets and show them off, or those of opposing faction, etc.
Sorry to tell you hun, but I think most of us have problems with rude and abusive customers then receiving tips. I dance for fun, if someone doesn't tip me oh well. But I would like to get rid of or deny people like I had the other night that said if i sucked his <edit> he would give me a bigger tip.
If I want money that bad I can go with my husband on missions. I do not and will not put up with rude and abusive players.
Relica Tremayne
Dancer / Image Designer
Eclipse
Then put them on ignore.
Sit down and refuse to perform, making everyone in the cantina aware of why, and hopefully with the support of your group.
Comment to them out loud, and allow other patrons to police them.
Offer duels yourself if you have combat training or a droid.
There are ways to RP around it, and for those who are utterly offensive, in an OOC manner, report them.
I don't disagree that 'deny' would allow blocking of those sorts of players, but you're still looking at going outside the lines of what is realistic, and the logistics. And ultimately, if you browse several of the recent threads (like the original one from Ravenmist) you will see FAR more people saying how they want it so they can make a living without doing missions, make those non-tippers find someone else, etc. etc.
You cannot ignore a 100 foot pet standing in the middle of the dance floor. You cannot force the person to duel, and no one can. The person is there for the attention, and letting everyone in the bar know about it just gives the jerk what they want.
In short, if the person doesn't want to RP, there is no RP way around it.
Sure, we've reported them before... but that takes what? hours? Boy there goes my night, next night, here's another, and another, and another.
Actually, the way I see it, you wouldn't be paid for dancing there. It's like going to a club. You pay to get in, or sometimes it is free, but nonetheless you aren't getting paid. You would get paid if you had someone hire you to be a go-go dancer. But I really don't see a manager at the Cantina... do you?
I fully agree with Adara. Although, she seems to make the higher end of the spectrum of tips. But I'm not there for tips. I'm there because I love to dance. It's fun and I get to make rude gestures at Adara and be all around catty. I love working with the other performers and making comments about who is wearing what and what my next purchase will be. I don't worry about money though. Sometimes I get paid, but if I really need money I'll go do some destroy missions. I'm not in the cantina but what do I really need the money for anyway? Clothes. Of course, that's the most important thing to me anyways. *sigh*
If you really want to /deny services, why don't you sit down? Stop playing your music. Don't do anything. If people get upset tell them why. So and so is being offensive and I'm not going to dance unless he leaves. Many people will jump to your aide and the jerkoff will leave. Trust me, it works. But OMG! We loose out on like 20 minutes of XP!!! And? Your point is? How long have you been playing this game? I think you can think of new ways to entertain yourself. Put the person on ignore and start messing with your makeup or hair or something. Try on new clothes. See if other people would like to try your clothes on. That's always fun. Fashion show! /deny service is a stupid idea. Be a little more creative next time. I do, however, like the /focus suggestion. That would actually be something constructive. And it would probably earn you more tips in the end. But, it's not about the tips it it? It's about helping out people and having fun. Get it together people.
Actually, it was posted in another thread that at many RL establishments the dancers work only for tips. No set fee involved. But bands are normally being paid a fee so they are really getting the shaft in this game. If you choose dancing as your profession and you dance for the beauty of it only than don't expect tips. You gets tips from entertaining the customers which generally involves conversation of some sort.
I will agree that the entertainer missions leave a lot of be desired. I took one in Theed the other day that ran me all the way to Kaadara and then there was nothing at the waypoint. Last one of those I will probably do. If you want to perform and make money try coming up with something on your own.. like put together a dance recital at one of the halls, publicize it and charge to get in.
I'm also against the /deny feature but I'm against it because there is no way to prevent it from being used to punish players for not tipping. Fortunately they have /ignore for the jerks. Can't stop them from healing but you never have to listen to them again.
Min'Tora Ehi
Hey Min. I think when you get to the waypoint, you are just supposed to start entertaining, ... and after you've entertained enough, then "mission complete".
I've never done one though, but that's what I've read.
It was all just really strange. The description of the mission was to dance for some children who got attacked at the edge of town.. when the waypoint took me to the cantina in a different town on the other side of the planet and there was nothing there, I just couldn't believe that it was right. I mean, how do you know if you're doing what you're supposed to instead of wasting your time?
Min
Mivora wrote:
It was all just really strange. The description of the mission was to dance for some children who got attacked at the edge of town.. when the waypoint took me to the cantina in a different town on the other side of the planet and there was nothing there, I just couldn't believe that it was right. I mean, how do you know if you're doing what you're supposed to instead of wasting your time?
Folks, if you're new to gig missions then visit the entertainer forum. There are several good guides there which are easily found by searching for "gig".
Nutshell version:
- Any town with a theater (aka entertainer guild hall) has two nobles.One gives dance gigs, one gives music gigs. NPC's out in the field will also give entertainment gigs.
- Accept the gig, check the details and abort it if it's not in the local town. Why pay for travel? Just get a different gig. Pay is rarely below 400 or above 600.
- If you're into music, then get yourself a music gig at the same location so you don't have to backtrack.
- Once you've got your gig, go to the waypoint. It will ALWAYS be the hotel or the cantina, for obvious reasons. (I'd personally like to see some gigs to the outdoor stages but what can you do?) The waypoint will be at the entrance to the venue. However, the performance must be done inside the venue. It doesn't matter where, just as long as you're inside.
- The length of the gig will be anywhere from five to twenty minutes. Duration seems to be mainly based on skill level and the number of flourishes you do. Some guides say "don't stop!" but I can tell you from experience that stopping to rest is irrelevant. It just adds time because you're not dancing/playing during the rest period.
- Finally, be courteous! If you get a gig to the cantina, don't jump into the middle of the floor and start taking attention away from the established entertainers. You're there for credits. Unless you're willing to group with them and share the gig payment then stay off to the side and don't steal their attention.
That's all there is to it. Be patient, perform inside the venue, and you'll get paid.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again . . .
Personally, I would not use /deny against people who don't tip. I would use it to deny services to those who come into the cantina with the specificintent of harrassing performers, usually dancers.
If you want to put it in a real life context, think of /deny as your friendly over-protective nightclub bouncer 
Micara
Chilastra