Dancer Archive
Thread: Changes to healing and Buffing.
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DarkY0da
Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:34 pm
#1
CLICKY
You thought it was hard to healing xp before...
/quote
PvP, PvE and Helpful Actions
Buffs, Entertainment, Trading, Rezzing and Healing are considered "helpful actions". In the new system, Buffs, Entertainment and Trading will no longer have TEF restrictions. No more trade TEF's bouncing you out of a house or other inconveniences. For example, under this system, a PVP enabled special forces Imperial can trade with or buff a PVP enabled Rebel.
Buffs, Entertainment, Trading can now be performed by anyone to anyone regardless of factional (Imperial/Rebel) or PvP affiliation (PvP Enabled or Disabled).
Healing will still have to follow some rules, otherwise you get a situation where a PvP disabled player can help a PvP enabled player indefinitely without any risk or a civilian can help a PvP disabled player to defeat factioned NPC's without risk of being attacked by those NPC's and that's just not fair.
Here is a simple diagram that shows the interaction of how the "healing" actions will work across PvP enabled and disabled players:
----------------> Healing Actions -----------------> <------------ Healing Actions <----------------
Imperial Rebel
[PvP Enabled] [PvP Disabled] [Civilian] [PvP Disabled] [PvP Enabled]
| |
|_________________________________ Attack ___________________________|
Imperial Special Forces can heal Imperial Special Forces, Imperial Combatants and Civilians.
Imperial Special Forces can NOT heal Rebel Combatants or Rebel Special Forces
Imperial Combatants can heal Imperial Combatants and Civilians.
Imperial combatants can NOT heal Imperial Special Forces, Rebel Combatants, or Rebel Special Forces
Civilians can heal other Civilians.
Civilians can NOT heal Rebel Special forces, Rebel Combatants, Imperial Special Forces, or Imperial Combatants.
Rebel combatants can heal Rebel Combatants and Civilians
Rebel combatants can NOT heal Rebel Special Forces, Imperial Combatants, or Imperial Special Forces
Rebel Special Forces can heal Rebel Special Forces, Rebel Combatants and civilians.
Rebel Special Forces can NOT heal Imperial Combatants or Imperial Special Forces
Healing Friends and the "On Leave" status
The challenge to overcome in this situation is to keep the game fun for players who are friends, but who might prefer to be in different factions and different play style states (PvP enabled or disabled). To accommodate fun game play for friends, we have added an "On Leave" status that players can get from Faction recruiters.
What the "On Leave" status does is create a way for friends to play together by temporarily leaving "active duty" and making "on leave" players effectively the same as civilians temporarily. All this means is that you visit a faction recruiter, request to go "On Leave". Being on leave will temporarily remove you from the faction but maintain your faction points and rank standing. You won't gain or lose any faction or rank while you are on leave, but you are all clear to go out with your friends and guild mates from other factions (who should also be on leave) for an afternoon of hunting. When you are "on leave" the healing rules work as if you were a civilian - you may be healed by anyone, and you may only heal other civilians (or others who are "on leave"). When "on leave" you also will not be shot on sight by enemy NPC's of the opposing faction.
/endquote
You thought it was hard to healing xp before...
/quote
PvP, PvE and Helpful Actions
Buffs, Entertainment, Trading, Rezzing and Healing are considered "helpful actions". In the new system, Buffs, Entertainment and Trading will no longer have TEF restrictions. No more trade TEF's bouncing you out of a house or other inconveniences. For example, under this system, a PVP enabled special forces Imperial can trade with or buff a PVP enabled Rebel.
Buffs, Entertainment, Trading can now be performed by anyone to anyone regardless of factional (Imperial/Rebel) or PvP affiliation (PvP Enabled or Disabled).
Healing will still have to follow some rules, otherwise you get a situation where a PvP disabled player can help a PvP enabled player indefinitely without any risk or a civilian can help a PvP disabled player to defeat factioned NPC's without risk of being attacked by those NPC's and that's just not fair.
Here is a simple diagram that shows the interaction of how the "healing" actions will work across PvP enabled and disabled players:
----------------> Healing Actions -----------------> <------------ Healing Actions <----------------
Imperial Rebel
[PvP Enabled] [PvP Disabled] [Civilian] [PvP Disabled] [PvP Enabled]
| |
|_________________________________ Attack ___________________________|
Imperial Special Forces can heal Imperial Special Forces, Imperial Combatants and Civilians.
Imperial Special Forces can NOT heal Rebel Combatants or Rebel Special Forces
Imperial Combatants can heal Imperial Combatants and Civilians.
Imperial combatants can NOT heal Imperial Special Forces, Rebel Combatants, or Rebel Special Forces
Civilians can heal other Civilians.
Civilians can NOT heal Rebel Special forces, Rebel Combatants, Imperial Special Forces, or Imperial Combatants.
Rebel combatants can heal Rebel Combatants and Civilians
Rebel combatants can NOT heal Rebel Special Forces, Imperial Combatants, or Imperial Special Forces
Rebel Special Forces can heal Rebel Special Forces, Rebel Combatants and civilians.
Rebel Special Forces can NOT heal Imperial Combatants or Imperial Special Forces
Healing Friends and the "On Leave" status
The challenge to overcome in this situation is to keep the game fun for players who are friends, but who might prefer to be in different factions and different play style states (PvP enabled or disabled). To accommodate fun game play for friends, we have added an "On Leave" status that players can get from Faction recruiters.
What the "On Leave" status does is create a way for friends to play together by temporarily leaving "active duty" and making "on leave" players effectively the same as civilians temporarily. All this means is that you visit a faction recruiter, request to go "On Leave". Being on leave will temporarily remove you from the faction but maintain your faction points and rank standing. You won't gain or lose any faction or rank while you are on leave, but you are all clear to go out with your friends and guild mates from other factions (who should also be on leave) for an afternoon of hunting. When you are "on leave" the healing rules work as if you were a civilian - you may be healed by anyone, and you may only heal other civilians (or others who are "on leave"). When "on leave" you also will not be shot on sight by enemy NPC's of the opposing faction.
/endquote
Maisland
Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:58 pm
#2
I believe that they are referring to medical healing there. It is possible even now, for an overt member of one faction to heal the BF and mind wounds of a member of the opposing faction. However, you cannot use stims to heal any damage or wounds that an overt character has unless you belong to their faction. This should therefore not cause us problems.
Pappi
Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:44 pm
#3
Maisland wrote:I believe that they are referring to medical healing there. It is possible even now, for an overt member of one faction to heal the BF and mind wounds of a member of the opposing faction. However, you cannot use stims to heal any damage or wounds that an overt character has unless you belong to their faction. This should therefore not cause us problems.
that's what I gathered too, and that entertainers can still heal anyone. otherwise we would've threw a fit before the info was passed out
edit: oof, spelling issues
Message Edited by Pappi on 02-02-2005 07:18 PM
Panthu
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:14 pm
#4
Pappi wrote:
that's what I gathered too, and that entertainres can still heal anyone. otherwise we would've threw a fit before the info was passed out
Well, no, actually. I for one am very upset that EH will not be treated as real healing yet again. I pretty much love these changes, but it's just bad for us to not be treated as real healers in our healing capacity. If poor Docs have to put up with it, we should too. It is the only way we will ever earn any respect.
Beyond that, if somebody has a Bot setup in a tent or a base somewhere, darn right I want the other side to be able to come in and take "her" out. Likewise, if I'm dancing my tushy off for my side in a tent or a base, I don't want my enemy to be able to get heals from me! If it means my side needs to protect me to keepme safe and dancing for them, good! They should! It's about time we are seen as something important and worthwhile in a Live capacity from this "healing" we do.
Message Edited by Panthu on 02-02-2005 08:16 PM
TheSillyOne
Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:48 pm
#5
I read it the opposite. I'll read it again but it looked to me like factional status does affect the way entertainment will work.
DarkY0da
Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:57 pm
#6
I read it like this ways;
If your a Combatant (Covert) Imperial combatants can NOT heal Imperial Special Forces(Overt), Rebel Combatants(Cover), or Rebel Special Forces(Overt)
Although now that I read it again yes it does look like they have decided to NOT consider what we are doing as "healing".... I'm sorry but that confuses me a little bit. So if I'm overt(Special forces) I can heal everyone and anyone that comes in as well as buff them. But I can also get killed. If I'm Covert(Combatant) then NPC's will try and kill me... so if your a bot or a non-combat template you really shouldn't join the GCW as it will only get you killed...
Why isn't our healing and buffing overall included in the new system ? I mean I don't mind so much if it cuts down a bit on healing xp(not sure if the recent changes would help offset that or not). But it honestly makes no sense thata Special Forces Entertainer can be used to heal the enemy and buff them and then get killed....
If your a Combatant (Covert) Imperial combatants can NOT heal Imperial Special Forces(Overt), Rebel Combatants(Cover), or Rebel Special Forces(Overt)
Although now that I read it again yes it does look like they have decided to NOT consider what we are doing as "healing".... I'm sorry but that confuses me a little bit. So if I'm overt(Special forces) I can heal everyone and anyone that comes in as well as buff them. But I can also get killed. If I'm Covert(Combatant) then NPC's will try and kill me... so if your a bot or a non-combat template you really shouldn't join the GCW as it will only get you killed...
Why isn't our healing and buffing overall included in the new system ? I mean I don't mind so much if it cuts down a bit on healing xp(not sure if the recent changes would help offset that or not). But it honestly makes no sense thata Special Forces Entertainer can be used to heal the enemy and buff them and then get killed....
Panthu
Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:03 pm
#7
TheSillyOne wrote:
I read it the opposite. I'll read it again but it looked to me like factional status does affect the way entertainment will work.
If so, then they've let this old Glowie rant for no reason in the corre forum, lol. I don't think so. I'm pretty certain we will remain the same, healing everyone. I even considered linking to your old petition about factional deny service to prove that there are Dancers who would prefer this to include us, but, meh...
The other Ent Corres and Glowies seem split, so, who knows? Maybe they are considering both views and aren't sure yet. I don't think so though, this seems very in line with all past comments and classifications that say we aren't healers.
I haven't talked to Deila about it, but I'm sure she's weighed all the options and she'll fight to change it if this isn't best for us. If healing all does turn out to be best for us, I'll try to get over it.
I just wish our new role would hurry up and get here if we aren't to be playing healers anymore. A girl can only do so much going to parties and shopping.
DarkY0da
Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:08 pm
#8
I have posted to the thread telling them I don't like this change and that I want to be included in the "healing" actions part. Other wise there is really no upside to me being an Imp and plenty of downside.
gera
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:03 am
#9
DarkY0da wrote:
I read it like this ways;
If your a Combatant (Covert) Imperial combatants can NOT heal Imperial Special Forces(Overt), Rebel Combatants(Cover), or Rebel Special Forces(Overt)
Although now that I read it again yes it does look like they have decided to NOT consider what we are doing as "healing".... I'm sorry but that confuses me a little bit. So if I'm overt(Special forces) I can heal everyone and anyone that comes in as well as buff them. But I can also get killed. If I'm Covert(Combatant) then NPC's will try and kill me... so if your a bot or a non-combat template you really shouldn't join the GCW as it will only get you killed...
Why isn't our healing and buffing overall included in the new system ? I mean I don't mind so much if it cuts down a bit on healing xp(not sure if the recent changes would help offset that or not). But it honestly makes no sense thata Special Forces Entertainer can be used to heal the enemy and buff them and then get killed....
Pardon me, but I do not understand the point of your view. Special Forces Entertainer is no different than being Overt today and being Overt in a cantina for entertainer is already equals to death. You can basically don't buff anybody blue to you, deny service at others. You will already see opposite faction special forces as red and they can attack you already. Since you are not a bot and not AFK at all, you can basically have all of your controls.
Dancers and Musicians so entertainers are ALL passive healing, because we heal MIND "wounds", and wound healing which is Wound Treatment (also Buffs are in this category) are friendly actions. We dont heal "MIND POOL" , thats what they mean here as healing.. "Pool and State Healing" which we already can not do.
I believe your response on the thread there was very aggressive about this....
Maisland
Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:07 am
#10
My take on this is: Medics can heal damage (and wounds if they have a droid out)during combat. We cannot. If we could, then it would be a different matter. I have no problem with having a seperate classification for mind/BF healing than for medical healing because of this. It's not like we use stims or the like and could therefore affect the outcome of a fight.
Panthu
Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:14 am
#11
SOETyrant wrote:
DarkY0da wrote:
I would like to know why Entertainer healing is NOT considered healing ? And why as a Special Forces person can I buff Special Force players from my enemy faction ?
Trading I can see as you can have spies and what not and it helps with RPing. But not putting buffs and entertainer healing in as part of the "healing" actions just honestly makes no sense to me.
Entertainers can't heal you while you fight. The goal was to ensure that healing could not happen from players that were at no risk while the factioned player was in combat. It's a kinder, gentler way of keeping you grouped with your faction when fighting factional targets.
The first line is about us. The others are about Medics. All refer to stimming. This isn't 100% correct though, wound healing does have an impact on PvP battles and is needed on site.
I know that we are not considered Healers. I know that we are not considered Functional. I understand the concept. EH is not supposed to be something we do, it's supposed to be something that happens around us. However, I believe this attitude has directly led to the current Bot mentality and all of our functional requests being ignored in the past. I would not so much mind us being treated as ornamental "objects" rather than functional "players" if we actually had something else to do for gameplay in our own right.
If we were just bouncing along in the cities with our own little Ent game making money and having fun while other players just stopped by and got something nice from being around us while we did our own thing, it would most likely be fine. It isn't like that though. EH does have an impact on Combat, PvP mostly. Combat has a huge effect on us, EH XP has been a primary concern for a long time. There is a reason why CMs in the Cantina are a wanted thing. Sadly, most combat players do not feel like we are meeting their wants/needs in providing our "services", again leading to Bot mentality.
I'm ok with separate but equal for us. If we are to have our own game that happens in the safe cities with pretty flowers and fluffy bunnies and killer group performances and fun Cantina mini-games and gobs of money to go buy pretty dresses with and throw huge parties.... great! That can't happen while our main focus is on combat support though. We have to either be allowed to step up to the plate and really become a part of the healing cycle, or we need to be cut loose and have our own stand alone worth.
This isn't fair to Combat or Entertainment to keep us in this limbo state. It makes us ghosts, shadows of other players with no real voice or place of our own. Even the Cantinas aren't ours in our current state.
LyteFoot
Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:48 am
#12
The problem I have with assuming these responsibilities is unwanted TEF's. I'm nuetral, I've always been nuetral, and until there is something skill based in combat instead of template/stats based idiocy I will stay nuetral. The combat model in the ground game is stupid, non-player skill based bunk and I do not want to get a TEF from someone randomly listening to me just so a template stacking child can "pwn ju". As long as my healing is passive instead of an act I can chose to occur I do not want the liabilities that a doc has for taking a TEF. The docs all take a risk in healing and buffing strangers in public places. If they heal a covert they can take a TEF and get killed, and sometimes this happens. However they can also actively chose whether or not to heal a person and we can't.
So no, I do not want ents included in this situation as long as our heals are passive. If it does change then this master musician will only perform in locations where healing cannot occur. I'm glad some of you like the GCW but I don't want to be drug into it in any way shape or form with the current ground and space combat models. SOE has chosen to make too much of combat stat based and I do not care to participate. If I want PvP I'll return to Jump Gate where it is all about my skill and leave the template combat to the rest of you. Do not support this unless our healing model becomes interactive please.
So no, I do not want ents included in this situation as long as our heals are passive. If it does change then this master musician will only perform in locations where healing cannot occur. I'm glad some of you like the GCW but I don't want to be drug into it in any way shape or form with the current ground and space combat models. SOE has chosen to make too much of combat stat based and I do not care to participate. If I want PvP I'll return to Jump Gate where it is all about my skill and leave the template combat to the rest of you. Do not support this unless our healing model becomes interactive please.
Xyrdre
Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:20 am
#13
Alright - lots of stuff to comment on here. Guess this is turning rapidly into a time for a State of the Entertainer Professions Mini-Address. 
Prelude
There was a lot of discussion in the corre forums surrounding the TEF removal idea, involving pretty much any corre who had something to pipe up and say. As I've understood it, entertainer healing was never in question regarding faction, Combattant (PvP disabled) or Special Forces (PvP enabled) status, etc. From the beginning of discussion, it was clear (to me) that entertaining would be unchanged.
As I understood it, the question about who should be able toheal whom (and when)was focused on medics/docs/CMs, and it was all based on whether or not there would ever be a case where someone could heal another player that was actively in combat without being a valid target for the opposition. This usually isn't the case with entertainer healing, as our /watch and /listen ranges are really pretty short for combat scenarios - the concern was moresurrounding stimming, as the medic/doc/CM is a lot more mobile.
And... Panthu is right. I havebeen weighing all the factors that I see surrounding the issue in choosing where to pipe up with concerns.
The Course, and Rationale
Right now, based on the feel I get from the boards and the word on the streets from the servers I've visited, I believe that it is of greater concern to the entertainment community that our source of entertainment healing XP not be threatened.
If entertainer healing was limited factionally, and further limited by PvP enabled/disabled status, that would not add opportunitiesto acquireEH XP, but reduce opportunities. The general feel that I get is that the community feels that EH XP is already hard enough to get, let alone if our opportunities to get that XP were lessened by significant amounts.
The choice in battling here would be then between:
- Preservation of the source of half of our XP requirements in leveling - the half that we cannot generate through actions of our own. This is of greater concern to future generations of Dancers and entertainers than current masters, but clearly affects the environment within which current masters play,
or
- Fight for the image and inclusion as true healers, even if it were to cause detrimental effects to the ability of leveling entertainers to gain that difficult to obtain EH XP, in the hopes that it would create an image whereby future development would grant us additional functionality as healers.
Pushingnow togain the limitations imposed on healers, without havingthe necessary additions we'd need to really function as 'true' healers already in place, appears to be counterproductive. However, I will of course listen to the voice of the community. If you feel that it's a really good time topush for that, in light of the limitations it would include, as your Correspondent I will of course represent the collective community view to the best of my ability.
It is my belief that the addedfunctionality required to cast our roles in the gameas 'true' healers would not come with anything short of a profession revamp, and then only if a healer role was the primary goal of that revamp. Even with the collective dev eye turned our way, development resources will still be finite, and I thinkwe'll have to pick and choose what revamping we want to come about. For these reasons, I think that if the Dancer (and entertainer, as a whole) community wants to push for the 'true' healer role, revamp time would be the time to do that. Or, we focus our revamphopes, dreams and desireson entertainer gameplay outside of the combat support role. I'd love to get both for us - but sneaking suspicions tell me that we'll likely have to choose.
The Future
I think that Panthu is also right about the sort of limbo that the game is in surrounding the role of entertainer healing, and with entertainers in general. I think she hit the nail on the head when she said that EH isn't something that we're supposed to do, but something that happens around us, in the devs' collective minds - as looking at it that way goes a long way towards explaining some of the past dev reactions that we've had for functional requests. The missing part to the equation, of course, is the gameplay for the entertainer player.
I'd personally be thrilled if we had entertainer gameplay for our game fun, and our 'functional' stuff (BF healing, for example)happened on the side as a byproduct, rather than being our "jobs" in SWG. I would also like it if there was some role that we held that was desirable to other players, but not seen as necessary to their core of gameplay (as mind buffing is currently), that would help bridge some playstyle boundaries. An attractive environment not related to combat enhancement or negative-effect removal, but something that other playersmight occasionallychoose to spend time doing while not going out and shooting it up. If the cantinas could only be seen as playgrounds foradditionalavenues to havefun in SWG,rather than required stops in and out of combat, I think that everyone would be much happier campers with the whole arrangement. In such an environment, EH could be something that just happened around us, conceivably, or would prove to then be unnecessary as a hook to draw players back into the cities periodically, and could be done away with.
Conclusion
A lot to think about, and a lot to absorb. But, the more we do think about these tradeoffs and ideas, the better that the 'social' playstyle could evolve into something truly unique in gaming. And I'd like us to be right there to help show the way to do it right. One way or another.
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