Dancer Archive
Thread: Changes to healing and Buffing.
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DarkY0da
Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:25 am
#14
Well I'm still unsure/unclear what the increased healing xp will do for EH XP. For all I know it could offset the change in healing xp if we were to lose out on healing a different faction. If not it could also be upped again.
But I am also very disappointed by us, once again, being kept in limbo with changes. I wanted to be part of the GCW in my own way. I've been nothing more then an RPer of it though as there isn't much I can do. IF we had been put into "healing actions" I would have a very good reason to be a faction. And likely would have a better chance at getting invited out to PvP events or PvE.(as changes to the way we could heal or buff would cause some major headaches for bots). In short I would have been encouraged to be a part of the GCW, instead I am being told more clearly now that It's better I don't choose a faction as there will only be a down side to it. While still leaving me feeling NOT part of the GCW except for those times I RP.
But I am also very disappointed by us, once again, being kept in limbo with changes. I wanted to be part of the GCW in my own way. I've been nothing more then an RPer of it though as there isn't much I can do. IF we had been put into "healing actions" I would have a very good reason to be a faction. And likely would have a better chance at getting invited out to PvP events or PvE.(as changes to the way we could heal or buff would cause some major headaches for bots). In short I would have been encouraged to be a part of the GCW, instead I am being told more clearly now that It's better I don't choose a faction as there will only be a down side to it. While still leaving me feeling NOT part of the GCW except for those times I RP.
DarkY0da
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:00 pm
#15
Not in modern warfar but yes it was extremely important in warfar before. For both effecting the moral of the troops you were fighting against as well as keeping up the moral of your own troops and keeping them timed together.
Panthu
Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:16 pm
#16
gera wrote:
This is "entertaining" which is "cheering up", NOT really "DEADLY" help in "ACTIVE COMBAT" in real and same in game. What we do is "after-combat" healing which is kinda resting / free time etc.
I'm sorry, that is simply not true. If PvP were different in this game, that would be true. If BF was the only method of "wounding" and could only be done during downtime that was being forced by something else (like after a death you are forced to recover in a city for 15 mins or something), that would be true. It isn't though.
Wound healing is important in PvP. I've been a base Dancer. I've seen the black bars. I don't have the experience that Silly does, but I have enough to know that Doctors and Dancers are needed at the site of battle to have any kind of decent sized battle. With the new window on base vulnerability, both will be needed for the full window every time.
It's fine if you want to stay a neutral Dancer who doesn't get involved with factioned play. Others will be involved though and they should be allowed to say who they help. Real world examples don't really make any sense in this discussion. The topic is a gameplay mechanic and the only reality this deals with is the reality of PvP war in this game.
Shaizann
Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:44 pm
#17
I'm with Panthu, I don't like that we seem to be in this limbo without a defined role. Sometimes I feel like shouting that line from The Island of Dr. Moreau "Devs...what...ARE WE?"
Another thing I find unsatisfactory about the new PvE players v. PvP players definition is the following: Right now I am a Covert (Combatant by these terms) Imperial Musician with little combat skill I could find myself screwed very fast. When a horde of NPC rebs choose to fire on me. It removes a possible RP element of being the covert Imperial operative listening in on the Cantina scene. This persona is the one I want, too. This system is basically saying, "If you're non-combatant profession you have no business choosing a faction." Frankly, I like being an RP Imperial and I want to continue to be one.
I wish they would either define us as healers and let us do some of the things those folks do, or cut us out of this healing business altogether. This odd limbo definition has hurt us for too long.
Another thing I find unsatisfactory about the new PvE players v. PvP players definition is the following: Right now I am a Covert (Combatant by these terms) Imperial Musician with little combat skill I could find myself screwed very fast. When a horde of NPC rebs choose to fire on me. It removes a possible RP element of being the covert Imperial operative listening in on the Cantina scene. This persona is the one I want, too. This system is basically saying, "If you're non-combatant profession you have no business choosing a faction." Frankly, I like being an RP Imperial and I want to continue to be one.
I wish they would either define us as healers and let us do some of the things those folks do, or cut us out of this healing business altogether. This odd limbo definition has hurt us for too long.
Shaizann
Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:48 pm
#18
Oh, also, the rest of the changes for the more mainstream healers seem pretty sound to me. I'm glad to see they put alot of effort into ensuring that you could not heal across factions. I played on Tallon Zek Team PvP server in EQ for four years. There it *was* possible to heal an opposite team player race. Trust me when I say it made PvP quite miserable and pretty fruitless when you were trying to take down an enemy who has a healer that you can't attack. We called it "Invulnerable Healing", and it really hurts the game if it's allowed.
Xyrdre
Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:49 pm
#19
Shaizann wrote:
Another thing I find unsatisfactory about the new PvE players v. PvP players definition is the following: Right now I am a Covert (Combatant by these terms) Imperial Musician with little combat skill I could find myself screwed very fast. When a horde of NPC rebs choose to fire on me. It removes a possible RP element of being the covert Imperial operative listening in on the Cantina scene. This persona is the one I want, too. This system is basically saying, "If you're non-combatant profession you have no business choosing a faction." Frankly, I like being an RP Imperial and I want to continue to be one.
I haven't seen any time limits set for going On Leave. And, as I understand it, going On Leave for extended times wouldserve the same purpose as being what I've started calling'PvE covert' (i.e., not being attackable on sight by opposite-faction NPCs). You're still Imperial, retaining rank and priveleges for when you do choose toreturn to active duty, but take yourself off of the opposite-faction hit lists.
Preserving the ability to take an'undercover operative' role in the GCWwas something I arguedto bevery important to a lot of players, not just for roleplaying but also practical purposes. A lot of entertainers and crafters, for example, would want to have the ability to move around somewhat freely without getting attacked all the time. I had proposed a more elaborate system of check rolls for NPCs to determine if your faction affiliation would be 'outed' resulting in attack that was pretty popular, but also had to admit that it would require significant additions to the system.
Hopefully, using the On Leave option as the rule rather than the exception (as I took TH's examples to imply)will serve the same purposes, providing a form of PvE covert that suits those players' choice. As always, let's keep our eyes open as the changes play out, and provide our perspective andfeedback on how the whole thing is working.
Shaizann
Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:12 pm
#20
Xyrdre wrote:
I haven't seen any time limits set for going On Leave. And, as I understand it, going On Leave for extended times wouldserve the same purpose as being what I've started calling'PvE covert' (i.e., not being attackable on sight by opposite-faction NPCs). You're still Imperial, retaining rank and priveleges for when you do choose toreturn to active duty, but take yourself off of the opposite-faction hit lists.
Preserving the ability to take an'undercover operative' role in the GCWwas something I arguedto bevery important to a lot of players, not just for roleplaying but also practical purposes. A lot of entertainers and crafters, for example, would want to have the ability to move around somewhat freely without getting attacked all the time. I had proposed a more elaborate system of check rolls for NPCs to determine if your faction affiliation would be 'outed' resulting in attack that was pretty popular, but also had to admit that it would require significant additions to the system.
Hopefully, using the On Leave option as the rule rather than the exception (as I took TH's examples to imply)will serve the same purposes, providing a form of PvE covert that suits those players' choice. As always, let's keep our eyes open as the changes play out, and provide our perspective andfeedback on how the whole thing is working.
Well, that would work if 'On Leave' allowed my playstyle (and others I'm sure) to continue. Ithink I may have misunderstood, and for some reasonI thoght the'On Leave' status would onlylast as long as say...a night of hunting non-faction for PvE purposes. It would have to be such that there was no time limit (or a lengthytime period) allowedfor 'On Leave' status. It would also have to be that I keep my current factional perks and such. Basically, how I have it now. Though it seems a bit silly to go to the trouble to join the Empire then take a permanant vacation. 
Now *that* is a lax yet despotic regime!
Now *that* is a lax yet despotic regime!If the 'On Leave' part of this had not been in the system I'd have been a bit irate.
Oh, and ifyou managed to get any solid, telling information out of Thunderheart's examples I applaud your detective work. 
gera
Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:12 pm
#21
Panthu wrote:
The topic is a gameplay mechanic and the only reality this deals with is the reality of PvP war in this game.
I can also add, game mechanics also tells you to be ATK and choose who will you buff or heal and who not. I'm not giving those examples for ATK players, those are for AFK players who has concerns about healing or not healing of opposite faction players... I've been in roles of organising base raids at the time I'm dancer and still am. However, since we dont "actively" heal POOLs, I'm strictly opposed that healing should be restricted to your own faction.
There a few commands when you see opposite faction players watch you /stopdance and /deny but I don't need to remind all those. I don't think people has rights to whinewho are lazy enough to type those commands in middle of battle...
Beside... "on the leave" and "pvp-disabled" people can not enter into bases. If there is opposite faction entertainer INSIDE base, you can basically kill him/her, and same goes for you and believe me, noone will get healed first then kill you if you are in your base. This thing is not an entertainer issue. This is a war and you are basically there to kill or to die, you help or not.
Noone should be there to help and don't want the risk to die...
Message Edited by gera on 02-03-2005 09:17 PM
TheSillyOne
Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:46 pm
#22
gera wrote:
Noone should be there to help and don't want the risk to die...
Message Edited by gera on 02-03-2005 09:17 PM
Exactly! I'm glad you agree with us. Factional players who wish to have an impact on factional battles need to face up to the consequences of it.
you're not talking to a noob, here. I'm aware of /deny service and I'm telling you that it's severly inadequate and if I have to /stopdance when the enemy approaches then i'm not doing my job as a combat healer. Oh and btw, yes they will stop to watch.They have on several occassions. Mind healing is just THAT important to combat that they'd rather stop area attacks, stop fighting for a few seconds and try to /watch to heal whatever they can before they are pulled into combat again.
I was dance/pvp combat for a very long time before becoming frustrated to tears and going full combat on one character and buying a whole different character for a full entertainment template. I'm very aware of game mechanics and how incredibly broken they are. I know that there are several reasonswhy folks feel they should be able to heal and buff across factional lines andI reserve the right to disagree with that assesment. In my ever so humble opinion, it's ludicris. If you want to heal overts you should be overt or teffed. Removing the tef system means that to heal overts you have to be overt. It really should be that simple but for some reason it's not.
TheSillyOne
Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:29 am
#23
compare our heals to CM heals. They affect everyone in range. If they healed both sides it would be rediculous for a cm to engage as a healer at all. They'd be healing both sides regardless of faction. If i'm dancing in the basement of a base that my team is trying to take down it should be automatic that I don't heal off the mind wounds that my team has managed to inflict on the opposite team, thusincreasingthier ability to continue to defend thier base. They should have to have thier own entertainer somewhere and that entertainer and I should both be attackable so that mind wound healing could be eliminated as a tactical measure.
Denial of service is a joke. It's not a practical counter measure. By the time I get everyone from the opposite team on my deny list most of them are healed already and if I crash and have to log back in (as oftenhappens at least once or twice in large scale battles)I have to start adding them to the deny list all over again.
Large scale battles have been known to become battles of attrition and my ability to keep my team combat ready should be exclusive to my team or there's no point in my even having a team.
I understand that entertainer healing xp is an issue as well but in my opinion, alowing healing across overt faction lines is not really the solution. Entertainers do participate in factional battles and they do affect the outcome.I wish they would participate more often and have a greater effect. I think that the proposed changes for medical healing are awsome and I think that they should be implemented for entertainer healing as well. I'd love to see entertainers encouraged to leave the cantina and seek out thier healing xp in fight groups where they are badly needed. I'd love to see factional alignment have some kind of role in the entertainer proffession.
A better solution would be to alow bf healing anywhere with the use of some kind of bot or specialized camp.
Panthu
Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:31 am
#24
The only reason it's not that simple is because Dancer (and Entertainer in general) is holding out for something more, something unique to us, not borrowed from another role, totally new! Both Ent Players and Ent Devs are holding out for this, so any request to make us more functional Healers on par with the quality of other Healers in this game gets the reply of "Don't you want to be something more?" Or, even worse "These are Social professions, why must you relate everything to Combat worth?" The last one makes me particularly nutsy, because I don't feel like it is we who are relating Ent to Combat worth, we are currently designed to relate to Combat worth and nothing more! *sigh*
Anyway, this is the hold out dream for us:
Xyrdre wrote:
I'd personally be thrilled if we had entertainer gameplay for our game fun, and our 'functional' stuff (BF healing, for example) happened on the side as a byproduct, rather than being our "jobs" in SWG. I would also like it if there was some role that we held that was desirable to other players, but not seen as necessary to their core of gameplay (as mind buffing is currently), that would help bridge some playstyle boundaries. An attractive environment not related to combat enhancement or negative-effect removal, but something that other players might occasionally choose to spend time doing while not going out and shooting it up. If the cantinas could only be seen as playgrounds for additional avenues to have fun in SWG, rather than required stops in and out of combat, I think that everyone would be much happier campers with the whole arrangement. In such an environment, EH could be something that just happened around us, conceivably, or would prove to then be unnecessary as a hook to draw players back into the cities periodically, and could be done away with.
I don't know why we have to risk the above goal if we want to ask for our Ent Healing to make sense until we get there. I do know that Deila's warning is true though, if we fight to be better at healing and become real Healers classified with Medics, we run the risk of doing it at the expense of getting anything like the above. It will meet with much Dev resistance since many Devs see our real goal "to become something totally new and unique" just like it always has in the past.
Even being a Glowie though, I don't know what to do here. It just makes sense that we should be treated like Medics here, just like it just made sense that we should be getting our dinky little FS bonuses like Medics. I just don't understand why this should have to be a fight, we didn't ask for EH, we've only asked to be allowed to do it well. As long as we have EH, most of us will want to do it well. If we aren't supposed to have it as our main focus, then they need to hurry up with our new Design.... because in the absence of any unique game provided gameplay for Ent, we have only two options in focus: RP, which is not Ent dependent and has nothing to do with our skills OR Ent Healing, which is 100% Combat dependent and is the only thing that has to do with our skills.
I just don't understand why this should have to be a fight, we didn't ask for EH, we've only asked to be allowed to do it well. As long as we have EH, most of us will want to do it well. If we aren't supposed to have it as our main focus, then they need to hurry up with our new Design.... because in the absence of any unique game provided gameplay for Ent, we have only two options in focus: RP, which is not Ent dependent and has nothing to do with our skills OR Ent Healing, which is 100% Combat dependent and is the only thing that has to do with our skills.
PoetDancer
Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:53 am
#25
This is a complicated issue, and one that I have not given much thought.
But I can think of many ways I can be useful to my faction if I am able to heal overts from the other side. I can see them come in the door, know what their statistics are, what their names are, what their titles are, what tags they are wearing, and what their equipment consists of. There are many individuals and PAs that are willing to tip me well for such information. And trust me dears, I take full advantage of it.
However, the only reason I am in a position to gain this information is the fact that they have a reason to sit with me, and let me do my work. And the reason these opposed factions are there is only because I have the ability to give them the things they need: BF healing, mind wound healing, and enhancements. I do not think that even the greatest performer in this game can draw an audience through mere personality alone in the regular, day-to-day game. Maybe for special events, but not in the general system. The audience needs a reason to come to us, and we give them a reason to stay with us or tip us.
But if you take away all the reasons for opposed factioned players to come to me,then I will have no way to play this clandestine gamethat me and dancers like me have been playing since launch. Unless members of an opposed faction have a reason to come to me, they don't give me the means todo my "patriotic duty" by keeping them distracted through my charming personality.
And i'm not above taking bribes either. Now things have changed in large part due to the way unattendedness has evolved, but I do recall a time when opposed, declared faction members were some of my best tippers. Why do you ask? Because everybody in Coronet knew in those days to leave a little something for "AuntieSirii"at the back table. I was in Coronet discovering what came through there, so Elite Imperial Syndicate, Imperial Brigade, and Stormtroopers of Death didn't have to be. If I saw something (or some players) who came through there that they may be interested in knowing about, I'd send one of them a /tell. And I'd get a nice cheque in the mail.
But I made no bones about the fact that Iworked for tips, had a sharp eye, a mind for what's important, and many, many contacts on both sides of the GCW. Both my faction, and the opposing faction knew this not only about me, but all the observant ones in the cantina. They'd tip you well to get info, tip you well to "forget," and tip you well for things that one would never think to tip one of us today.
Both my faction, and the opposing faction knew this not only about me, but all the observant ones in the cantina. They'd tip you well to get info, tip you well to "forget," and tip you well for things that one would never think to tip one of us today.That was the game I relished! And I wasvery good at it, too.
That sort of game can't be played today, however. Not with the sort of environment we have. Because today, there is no reason for them to come to the cantina, or have me come to them. Becauseall the guilds and individuals who used to tip me for those "unconventional services"havetheir own private buffers now, who not only doesn't have to be tipped, but is incapable of even being disloyal. And since there is no longer any reason for any of them to even have to go to where I am at, I am no longer even in a position to give out information. And even if I were to give out such information today, if it ever became known that I did so, it only shows to them even more why we live players are more trouble keeping around than we are worth.
Which begs the question of how we can play a part in terms of our political obligations. I needed no deus ex machina from the developers to know exactly what faction meant to a cantina player in the days before rampant unattendence. It was only natural what I did...and any other dancer did who knew how to make the most of what she saw and heard in the cantina. But now we have to think of ways we can be incorporated into the GCW by manipulating the very things that facilitated what we always did for the GCW, but are unable to do now because the basis of our interdependence has been undermined.
Remember dears, you are talking to the one who raised a fit around here because we couldn't register in factionally opposed cantinas. And the reason I did is because I did not want to get this class into a situation where our factional loyalties prevented us from doing what dancers, courtesans, girlfriends, femme fatales, Tokyo Rose, Mata Hari,Little Egypt, and all such women have done throughout history: use their unique and irresistable position in a manner that helps the side that helps her the most.
But alas, that intricate, character driven, player driven, and personality driven game is no longer a possibility in this current environment. I understand that. And I understand that we want to be more involved in terms of political affiliation. Now faction only restrictions or enhancements in terms of our mechanical functions are a way to do that. But they also inhibit those old functions I used to do, because they don't give players of all types an equalreason to come to me.
If we have to go that route, so be it. But I'd rather have my old game back. It seemed to be more challenging, fun, and in the spirit of what our role is to be in this approximation of real life.
As far as the question of healing, or looking at us as healers is concerned, that's a topic perhaps for another post.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-04-2005 11:59 AM
LeBob
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:56 am
#26
I just want to mention a few things for now...
- The GCW revamp is separate from all this recently announced stuff.
- All professions are planned to be integrated into the GCW in the GCW revamp
- "“Mind” stat Balance - it won’t be the all-important stat in combat that it is now." [quoted from the public CU document]
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