Dancer Archive
Thread: Developers, it is not my fault.
Page 1 of 5
PoetDancer
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:53 am
#1
So here we live in the aftermath of Publish 13. A publish I have nicknamed, "The Powergamer's Delight." It is a popular publish, which is why I imagine it was fast tracked like it was.
I can't say we haven't profited by it. We received a 1000 credit payraise from the terminals.
And yet, I cannot help but wonder if the developers did what they did with entertainer healing and shuttle times because of some sort of problem with the times as they were.
Because I was around for a long, long time in this game. And while the issue of starport wait times has always been an issue by some, who would ever think that starport times were something that was a backbreaking issue that had to be resolved? I can certainly think of more pressing issues at hand, but the issues that are more pressing are also the issues that are most contraversial. Take unattendence. I can think of no more destructive, and also, contraversial issue than unattended activity.
This shuttleport issue was relatively harmless, and something that received more or less general support. Faster shuttles is a good thing and harms nobody, right? And everyone gets to where they need to go faster. Indeed, with personal starcraft, shuttleports and starports were even less of a concern.
But I do have to say dancers, I can recall on several occasions how I used to make a lot, and I mean, a major portion of my income simply dancing whilst waiting for the shuttle. I would entertain in its purest sense, with no "can u buff me," or "/invite plz." And I must have been doing something right. Because my largest tip on Bria, to this day, was made at the Moenia Starport...and it listed in the six figures.
But in order to convince a patron that I deserve to be tipped, I need time to convince them I am working, I am working hard, and I am working well. Indeed, how can I make a starport wait exiting if starports are not naturally boring? How can I make the time go by in an amusing way if there is not a great deal of time that can be boring?
And so I live with the notion that I may never again be able to capitalize on entertaining at the starports.Since the wait times are virtually nothing now, I can barely start my routine or type one word before the shuttle arrives, and we all are off to our intended destinations. An avenue to showcase my talents lost for the sake of "progress."
I cannot fault the developers for this though, as much as I can fault the developers for cutting the time needed to heal wounds and buff. Why was this done in such a way? The only thing I can think of is that for some reason, most of the cantina patrons are bored. Many patrons say they are rushed, but what is being rushed other than getting something boring out of the way for the sake of something one perceives to be more exiting?
And I have to admit. Cantinas have become boring and tedious places to be. All the spam, the discord, the mismatched outfits, spam, bots, mismatched songs, and unattended levelers make the cantinas our patrons have decided to frequent vapid holes of apathy and confusion.
But dancers, musicians, and those committed to playing this class, this isn't our fault.
We try hard to give the patrons what they want in an amusing way. In fact, I am suprised sometimes how very long some of my patrons stay with me, even when I am buffing. And we are not talking about the roleplay stormtroopers, but we are talking about some of the nastiest powergamers on Bria.
I have heard it all before. "I don't care about being entertained. I just want my BF, mind wounds, and buffs." But let me give you a little secret. Nobody goes to the cantina to socialize. How can you go to the cantina to socialize if you don't even know if there will be anyone to socialize with? So I don't really understand why anyone would go to the cantina to socialize when there are chat channels, guild channels, and all manner of tools available that assure one an interocculator. So I am under no assumption that the patronswho come to the cantina want anything else other than their BF, mind wounds, and buffs tended to. But it doesn't really matter to me if you don't want a conversation or an artistic display. You are going to get one from me, nevertheless.
Because we have the power to turn the cantina into something players don't mind, and even something that players forego their hunting to observe. We have refined our techniques, crafted our dialouge, and work hard at being so entertaining, patrons would rather see our chat bubbles than wait to not see them. I imagine every dancer and musician here can say the same. It does not take much to make a patron forget about their BF level, but it has to be something different. Not something predictable.
And yet, for some reason, the developers have concluded that the patrons by in large are spending too much time in the cantinas. And if I were a player these days, I'd agree. Most of what they see every day are characters that really don't do much but spam, do the same program, and do an auto-invite. And the few that are making an attempt to be amusing are simply drowned out in the sea where the patrons congregate. So it makes perfect sense, at least in terms of general sentiment, to reduce the time patrons need to be in there.
But dancers, musicians, and those committed to playing this class, this is not our fault.
And it certainly looks good to the fellow that says, "I don't care about being entertained. I just want my BF, mind wounds, and buffs." But when hasbeing entertainedever prevented you from getting the things you come to the cantina to get? It never has, is not the case now, and hopefully never will interfere with what you come to the cantina to get. And it doesn't even matter if you want to be entertained. I will attempt to entertain you nevertheless.
But I cannot help you if you think that the cantinas are boring, this class is boring, and you don't care about how you get the mind buff. That is not my fault things are that way. It is not the fault of dancers, musicians, and those committed to this class.
And yet, we have to live with cut healing times, and cut buff times. Andthe onlyreason for these changesis that players, I imagine,complained the cantinas are a tedious and boring place to be for any amount of time.
But who's fault is that, friends? Not mine. Not the dancers, musicians, and those committed to playing this class. You can't blame us for your boring time sinks. They were never seen as boring, nor time sinks when we were in charge of how the cantinas operated back in 2003.
So Thunderheart, SOE-Tyrant, Tiggs, and you redtags. I am sorry that the cantinas are so tedious and boring that you had to reduce healing and buffing times to satisfy your subscriber base. Me and players like me who breathe life into the characters are going to feel the effects, as now a buffbot can now buff upwards of 14,982 patrons in a days active play, instead of the previous 7491. And players are going to find that they only have to put up with the boredom and tedium of the cantina they have helped create and foster only one fourth as long as previous.
But don't blame me, Developers, or these good people here that your subscribers think the cantinas are boring. I try every time I step foot in the cantina to make it not boring. And I find that I can succeed, if given the chance. But as the Bob Fosse musical says, "I simply cannot do it alone."
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-23-2005 10:58 AM
Else-Whira
Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:23 pm
#2
I am sorry but I completely disagree with your view on this.
People that enjoy role play, interacting with other players in ways aside from concrete game goals DO NOT CARE how long it takes to get their BF healed. They often come to the cantina without wounds or BF just because they know they will find other like mind set players there. They don't need a game mechanic to attract them to these places. They would find some place much like it no matter what. The game mechanic gives us players who enjoy hanging out a REASON to be somewhere specific to create those pockets of social content. Instead of having to be on a sever for a while to track down the role play group or social hangout spot the idea is that you head to the busy cantina and find them.
People that enjoy role play, interacting with other players in ways aside from concrete game goals DO NOT CARE how long it takes to get their BF healed. They often come to the cantina without wounds or BF just because they know they will find other like mind set players there. They don't need a game mechanic to attract them to these places. They would find some place much like it no matter what. The game mechanic gives us players who enjoy hanging out a REASON to be somewhere specific to create those pockets of social content. Instead of having to be on a sever for a while to track down the role play group or social hangout spot the idea is that you head to the busy cantina and find them.
Maisland
Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:46 pm
#3
Else-Whira wrote:
I am sorry but I completely disagree with your view on this.
People that enjoy role play, interacting with other players in ways aside from concrete game goals DO NOT CARE how long it takes to get their BF healed. They often come to the cantina without wounds or BF just because they know they will find other like mind set players there. They don't need a game mechanic to attract them to these places. They would find some place much like it no matter what. The game mechanic gives us players who enjoy hanging out a REASON to be somewhere specific to create those pockets of social content. Instead of having to be on a sever for a while to track down the role play group or social hangout spot the idea is that you head to the busy cantina and find them.
True... I know that I have made several friends on Intrepid... many of whom come to the Coronet Cantina just to be entertained by me. It doesn't matter to them how long it takes... I am in the habit of "singing" as I dance or play music and have actually gotten requests for specific songs from some patrons... and they "listen" to the entire song (and since I use a /pause 30 between lines this takes a LONG time even for the shorter songs). Some do this even if they just came to the cantina to get buffed up and healed before going out hunting... and not all of them are even Role-Players!
PoetDancer
Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:56 pm
#4
Maisland wrote:
... and not all of them are even Role-Players!
I think this is a point that bears repeating. I don't try and judge a player who walks into the cantina as to whether or not they are seeking a conversation, or a song, or being entertained. Most tend to go to the cantina to get the mechanics. But they'll get a show from me, regardless of why they go there. I simply do not understand how being amused prevents them from getting the sort of things they go to the cantina to get. Getting mechanics and being immersive are not mutually exclusive. Both can be done.
You mention Coronet, Maisland. One of my best patrons in Coronet on Intrepid was CharPrime Maverik. And this was a player who played to win. Many would consider him a powergamer, and therefore beyond the reach of what we do. And yet, Mr. Maverik was always polite. Always up for being amused. And always a fine tipper to boot.
Maisland
Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:15 pm
#5
PoetDancer wrote:
You mention Coronet, Maisland. One of my best patrons in Coronet on Intrepid was CharPrime Maverik. And this was a player who played to win. Many would consider him a powergamer, and therefore beyond the reach of what we do. And yet, Mr. Maverik was always polite. Always up for being amused. And always a fine tipper to boot.
I don't think thta I have ever seen him. Among the friends that I have made on Intrepid are Ullyses (a Bounty Hunter), Drade (a Jedi), Draid(Drade's alt), Sinraith (a Combat Medic), Kay (a fellow Master Dancer who I once teamed up with to give one customer a dual buff), Linkus (a Rodian male who loves my Intrepid character)... and others whose names I can't call to mind right now (including the Guild I belong to on Intrepid). The shortened times for healing and buffing (etc) have not had any adverse effect on any of these friendships... and I find that I have much the same enjoyment from performing no matter which of the servers I log into. Even my Masque character was fun to play (and get to Novice Dancer).
ChiiTWINS
Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:12 pm
#6
Sirii,
Beautifully worded.
It's ridiculously late, so I don't want to get into agree/disagree at this point, but regardless of all that, definitely a very well-written post.
Beautifully worded.
It's ridiculously late, so I don't want to get into agree/disagree at this point, but regardless of all that, definitely a very well-written post.
Warenth
Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:03 am
#7
I agree with you. I played back in 2003 and just started again. I was surprised to see how many people are afk. I also have several on ignore cause of the afk spam. I wont even get in to how i feel about buff bots. I do try to make everyone that enters the cantina welcome, But sometimes you might as well be afk for the response you get. Its like no one talks anymore. Even when you start a conversation with someone there is no response. They may do it so they dont have to tip. Im not even concerned with that, I would rather have a good conversation than a tip. I came back to SWG cause EQ2 didnt have the social community that SWG had, sadly SWG lacks social content as well now. I enjoy my career and will continue to entertain and socialize with people whether they talk back or not. I do have a few people that come to the cantina now to chat with me caus ethey know i will be there. Some dont even have BF. I think that this attitude was caused by AFK dancers and buffbots. I have danced afk before but its not a habit of mine and i really dont like to do it. I really think that once the buff bots can no longer do what they do, some of the social aspect will be restored. At this point dancers are treated like buff bots. I think a little bit at a time we can restore some of the old cantina ways. The new dancers dont know what it was like but us old ones remember, and it is missed.
Anari
Naritus
Posting on my BF highjacked account
Drygo
Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:22 am
#8
I don't always agree with Sirii, but I definitely agree with this post. It seems like I'm one of the few people who welcomed the shuttle waits, and the healing time the way it was before. Buffs are a different story, though. I think it makes a difference if people are in a rush to get out, which they are, if they're buffing up. Even I am. But, at the same time, it seems to me that most people really used to enjoy the Cantina down time. In fact, even in Theed, which is the most live of any Cantinas on Kettemoor, there are people that come in, who aren't even roleplayers, that stay there for a good amount of time socializing and interacting with each other and the entertainers. I, too, like Sirii, used to take the opportunity to dance or play music in starports as I was waiting for the shuttles. I noticed a good percentage of people who started clapping, who were obviously watching me dance or listening to me play. I would get /tells that would thank me for making the starport time go by quickly. And, yes, I would get tips too. It seems like I got more tips working the starport than I did the Cantinas. I don't think the downtimes were a bad thing. And, it seemed to me like it was just a minority of people who really complained about it. And, like Sirii also says, I think time would've been better spent working on other things than catering to the "now" crowd. I wasn't bored dancing or playing music. And, it seemed like most other people weren't either. And, in some instances, such as the starports, welcomed the entertainment with open arms.
Vorpaks
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:34 am
#9
I didn't mind the 5 minute wait at star ports myself. However, keep in mind the new TEF changes - 5 minutes to switch from combatant to special forces after performing an attack on a special forces. I can imagine that would lead to a pretty stressful starport wait for a SF who had just missed the shuttle and was surrounded by enemy combatants. It would be a race to see if she could click on the droid and jump out before the combatants switched to SF and murderized her. 
I personally would find the stress part of the fun, but not everyone likes being sent to the cloner in an unfair fight. Actually not even me come to think of it.
I personally would find the stress part of the fun, but not everyone likes being sent to the cloner in an unfair fight. Actually not even me come to think of it.
LyteFoot
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:36 am
#10
Else-Whira wrote:
I am sorry but I completely disagree with your view on this.
People that enjoy role play, interacting with other players in ways aside from concrete game goals DO NOT CARE how long it takes to get their BF healed. They often come to the cantina without wounds or BF just because they know they will find other like mind set players there. They don't need a game mechanic to attract them to these places. They would find some place much like it no matter what. The game mechanic gives us players who enjoy hanging out a REASON to be somewhere specific to create those pockets of social content. Instead of having to be on a sever for a while to track down the role play group or social hangout spot the idea is that you head to the busy cantina and find them.
Yes people who want to role play will seek out the cantina. However there are a lot of people who go there for the mechanics and end up staying a little longer for the show. I see it daily. When we are outside on the streets, where mechanics have zero affect, it is more obvious. Just Sunday night we were on the street in front of Theed again and gathered one of our largest crowds ever. It was obviously a mix of PvP junkie, power gamer, and role player. We had people watching and interacting, we had people watching and talking leet to each other about the DWB, and we had people watching and dueling each other. What they all had in common was that our performance was appealing enough that they carried on their game in view of our dancers, no healing or buffing possible out there.
I argued against shortening healing and wait times. I'm afraid the hurry up, don't stop attitude of a few very vocal members is breaking down the social structure for the masses who may not seek it out but do enjoy it when it occurs. I like the shortened buff times, I don't care how many more people a buff bot can service this is a point in a players game where time is important. The shuttle waits and healing times need to go back up though. OK maybe 10 minutes between shuttles was too much but 5 was no hardship and gave us a chance to catch someone's attention. I've seen people miss 3 more shuttles watching us at a starport. Since the one minute timer I rarely even see them giving us a listen anymore, there simply isn't time to catch their attention.
I think the biggest reason people don't respond to an entertainers chat is because they don't see it. The cantinas are so full of heal me/invite me/tip me spam that you can't see the random greeting go past. When a person is near me so that my chat bubble will be easily visible to them I rarely see them refuse to respond with at least a "hi". They may not be chatty but they will acknowledge a pleasant greeting. On the other hand I've seen people asking if anyone is buffing and when I say in spatial "I can buff you" more often than not they never react if they are across the room. We have to remember these folks don't spend hours there, they don't have ignore lists of 80+. I tend to forget just how much garbage is in the air inside a cantina unless I go to CNet where I don't have them all on ignore.
Panthu
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 am
#11
Many changes are coming. All of them are coming fast... including changes to Entertainer. I'm pretty sure it's all going to work out best for us and the game at large in the end, but the changes will feel drastic and rapid to many of us who have been around for a long time.
It's going to happen either way though, so it's not going to be very useful to get upset about these things. As long as the core purpose and fun behind Dancer is maintained, or even better enhanced, I'm a happy Dancer. I took up this attitude long ago and it's probably best that everyone else try to as well for sanity's sake. 
I took up this attitude long ago and it's probably best that everyone else try to as well for sanity's sake. The game's changing. Luckily, I think we have the staying power to survive changing with it.
LyteFoot
Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:39 pm
#12
Well Panthu they aren't replacing a dancer's performance functionality with a juke box yet either. I'm afraid that as a contributing function entertaining is on its way out. I'm afraid we will see them split entertainer and "relaxation specialist" and you will either be a buffer that has nothing to do with performing or you will have no real value in the context of the game.
PoetDancer
Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:43 pm
#13
Tell that to the musicians. A whole lot of change is coming to them in the form of a 25,000 credit NPC generated goodie.
Just because it may look at first glance to be a good thing doesn't mean change promotes the sort of things the game needs to promote. All a change really does is change the way the game has to be played in order to satisfy the new expectations and parameters. And this can lead to impoverished gameplay a lot easier than it can lead to rich gameplay options.
The developers havesomehow concludedthat players do not like spending time in the cantinas. But they never apparently stopped to consider that it is not the class when played that makes it boring. Its the class when non played and undermined that makes it boring. So rather than take steps to get the tedium and apathy out of the cantinas, they did an "Imperial Hat" and just cut the time players need to be there.
The developers have somehow concluded that players do not like spending time at the starports and shuttleports. But they never apparently stopped to consider that an entire entertainer economy centered around entertaining the ones around the droid would be undermined.
And now, the jukebox. You think that crafters were upset that the best goodies can't be crafted, but looted? Now the goodies don't even have to be crafted, or looted. Just bought by an NPC. And now the musicians are wondering how this is going to impact those entire player generated economic systems that have grown up around functions that the jukebox will most likely nowfill.
So yes, change is coming. Change that will ultimately affect what we do and how we do it. But I have no indication that these changes will result in a game we would like to play.
I keep on hearing how the developers don't understand what role we are to fulfill, and what our game can and should entail. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how we play these professions, what the goals are for these professions, why the systems are the way that they are, and what needs to be done to fix these professions and bring it to a state of playability. If Pex, Tiggs, Thunderheart, SOE-Tyrant, and JustG have any doubt, they should come here and start reading my posts on the entertainer system, Else-Whira's, Sultrina's, Panthu's, Xydre's, Warryyr's, Tiaga's, and Tandaava's. Not the "wish lists." Not the "What if's." Not the, "wouldn't it be cool" posts. The posts that explain how the game works now, so they can get an idea of how very rich andplayer driven these professions are potentially now, so they don't end up changing the game into something that we do not and cannot play.
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