Dancer Archive
Thread: Combat Balance Issues for Dancer: Ent Healing, Bards, and our Future in the Game
Oqua wrote:
I am glad you wish to fight for our profession. I did see the ID/stat migration fiasco (I call it this because most ID'ers are not happy campers, I being one of them). The one thing that did teach me is what I suspected all along...no matter what we vote on, propose, etc., if the devs decide our profession should head a certain way, it probably won't matter a hill of beans.
That's not completely true. The Devs and Kwee worked really hard to get feedback on this. In the end, certain things were decided by the Devs for their own reasons (they are allowed to do that for the health of the game, I'm not questioning that)... but Kwee has had their ear the whole time.
If it hasn't been clear up to this point, let me just go ahead and say it... I think our role is not 100% safe. I have tried to present the information that has led me to this belief as clearly as possible. I think a huge chunk of art dept. time beyond what we are getting in the Quests and Hutt Casino will not be happening for a while. This leaves us a window to talk about our function, something that has not ever been done really well in this forum.
Beyond whether or not anything will be changing for us actively or as a side effect, a lot of Dancers do want our functional elements to be clearer. I think they deserve a chance to talk about that with out having people scream at them "we aren't EQ bards, Holo doesn't want that!" Plenty of people have posted in this thread that are very leery of anything combat oriented. They were still able to offer other functional ideas and talk about what their concerns with combat options were with out focusing on how we aren't supposed to be bardic.
Kwee pretty much got us that new UI and our new palettes... with out her, we might only have the Holo Emotes and Stat Migration. As an ID, I'm glad my correspondent had their ear. As a Dancer, I'd like to make sure we have one too. As a correspondent, I need to know what's going to be accepted by the community. Then, after I've sorted it all out, I have to take that to the Devs and start saying "Hello! I know what they said would be ok, does this match what you are doing? If not, can we make it more like what they are saying?"...
The fear of talking about our function isn't productive. You can have the answer of "no, I think we are fine if they remove our function", "I don't want to see any new function but I want to fight for and protect what we have", "I like what we have and want it protected but also enhanced", "I think the blue healing thing is a bad idea, but I think so and so would be a good function"... or the much less helpful but perfectly your right "I think you are wrong Panthu, I think our function is clearly defined, working as intended, and completely safe from any side effects or direct changes"... and you know what? You can say the last, but I don't really have a good response for that other than what I've already said.
I'm not mad about it, but I don't think I need to stop a productive thread just because you think I'm wrong. I may be wrong, but I'd rather be ready. 
Ok, I think I've heard just about enough of "What does that have to do with us? Why are we talking about this? We aren't squad leaders....blah blah blah".
1) Mind disease is used in PVP just as often as mind poison and it is actually the preferred method to take someone out of the battle and keep them from zerging. This is one of the largest ways that entertainers can participate in and sway a battle to one side or the other. I have been at many a battle where the side with an entertainer was the winner due to this.
2) Noone in the player base currently know exactly how the ham system will change and along with that all the ways to heal/damage/wound it. Why not discuss what your possible future role in this could be? What is the harm? Panthu isn't saying that they are taking away some dances to give you battle crys. Don't mistrue her words to try to make it sound like that, it is only counter-productive.
I'm not mad about it, but I don't think I need to stop a productive thread just because you think I'm wrong. I may be wrong, but I'd rather be ready.
I dont think we ever said "I think your wrong"....I gave you a list of things I know, as well as what we *all* should know about the HAM changes that are coming....And I asked if the current functionality of dancers will be changing in regards to battle fatigue/mind wound healing....
Other then that, it sounded, at least in your original post, that you were trying to use the fear of the "unknown" to push this "new direction" along with the community....
The fact is, it sounds like from these posts, many people do not even know how the new HAM system will work....So how exactly will they be able to comment on the new role for dancers?
Not to mention, to *want* a new role you have to be saying your old role is useless and or not wanted...Because again, in the new system, even if mind were healable *nothing* changes in regards to the funtionality of dancers.....
I might not be agreeing with you...However, I am being pretty good about *not* doing a one liner and saying "Nope your wrong"...I think you could show us the courtesy and tell us why exactly you think the dancers funtionality "might" change in the future...and why you think new options need to be thought of...Because as of right now, none of the problems with the dancing class stem from their role in the game...They *all* stem from content and profession macroing.....
I guess what I am really trying to say is...Do you know something we dont? Because no other corr has even tried to decipher the CB and "grab a role"...One of the beauties of the dancing profession is that the role is already defined and it should be largley unaffected by the CB...So is it just that your unhappy with your current role/fuctionality?
Message Edited by Taewyn on 05-06-2004 10:33 PM
Kwee pretty much got us that new UI and our new palettes... with out her, we might only have the Holo Emotes and Stat Migration. As an ID, I'm glad my correspondent had their ear. As a Dancer, I'd like to make sure we have one too. As a correspondent, I need to know what's going to be accepted by the community. Then, after I've sorted it all out, I have to take that to the Devs and start saying "Hello! I know what they said would be ok, does this match what you are doing? If not, can we make it more like what they are saying?"...
The fear of talking about our function isn't productive.
The crux of it is....ID's had *no* "real" in game mechanic that could be used as a functionality *and* the mechanics for their profession were soarly lacking for the social oriented job they needed to do...
Dancers *do* have a tangible game mechanic to call thier own, so out of the myriad number of issues, it is hard for me to understand *why* this particular thing was brought up.......Unless your expecting this particular mechanic to change with the CB (which, as I have said, I dont think it will)
Taewyn wrote:
I'm not mad about it, but I don't think I need to stop a productive thread just because you think I'm wrong. I may be wrong, but I'd rather be ready.
I dont think we ever said "I think your wrong"....I gave you a list of things I know, as well as what we *all* should know about the HAM changes that are coming....And I asked if the current functionality of dancers will be changing in regards to battle fatigue/mind wound healing....
Other then that, it sounded, at least in your original post, that you were trying to use the fear of the "unknown" to push this "new direction" along with the community....
The fact is, it sounds like from these posts, many people do not even know how the new HAM system will work....So how exactly will they be able to comment on the new role for dancers?
Not to mention, to *want* a new role you have to be saying your old role is useless and or not wanted...Because again, in the new system, even if mind were healable *nothing* changes in regards to the funtionality of dancers.....
I might not be agreeing with you...However, I am being pretty good about *not* doing a one liner and saying "Nope your wrong"...I think you could show us the courtesy and tell us why exactly you think the dancers funtionality "might" change in the future...and why you think new options need to be thought of...Because as of right now, none of the problems with the dancing class stem from their role in the game...They *all* stem from content and profession macroing.....
I guess what I am really trying to say is...Do you know something we dont? Because no other corr has even tried to decipher the CB and "grab a role"...One of the beauties of the dancing profession is that the role is already defined and it should be largley unaffected by the CB...So is it just that your unhappy with your current role/fuctionality?
Message Edited by Taewyn on 05-06-2004 10:33 PM
Do you have some secret website where you have read all about the HAM system changes? Give me a link I would love to read it too if your not too busy twisting Panthu's words and not responding to my post (which answered several of the things that keep asking).
Sirii, just so you know... I'm seeing this and other posts like this in this thread and counting them off just as much as the others. This is still topical...
PoetDancer wrote:
Function and interdependence is what got us into this mess we have in the profession now. Because I'll tell you one thing, I bet my income would not be affected one way or another if we add a thousand mechanics to dancers, or if we strip them all away entirely. Players don't tip me for my traditional healing functions, and are becomming less inclined to tip for buffs. If they tip at all, they tip for my artistic and social functions, which will remain regardless. However, I can guarantee that my enjoyment would go up if all mechanics were stripped from the profession altogether. Why? Simple: Unattendedness. Because the addition of functions, roles, and incentives willnot make any more or less individuals play and enjoy this classif they are able to be done in an unattended way. You will simply have the problems we have now, if not more so, with individuals purchasing accounts to distribute our functions 24/7 for free.
I'm not mad about it, but I don't think I need to stop a productive thread just because you think I'm wrong. I may be wrong, but I'd rather be ready.
1) Mind disease is used in PVP just as often as mind poison and it is actually the preferred method to take someone out of the battle and keep them from zerging. This is one of the largest ways that entertainers can participate in and sway a battle to one side or the other. I have been at many a battle where the side with an entertainer was the winner due to this.
And this has to do with the current funtionality changing how? Again, it looks like your dancers did a fine job of counteracting the poison/disease without becoming bards...
Noone in the player base currently know exactly how the ham system will change and along with that all the ways to heal/damage/wound it. Why not discuss what your possible future role in this could be? What is the harm? Panthu isn't saying that they are taking away some dances to give you battle crys. Don't mistrue her words to try to make it sound like that, it is only counter-productive.
But, if you did your homework, you would have an Idea of how things are going....
Also, I think its actually more counter-productive to try and find a new functionlaity in a system you know so little about, especially when the current funtionality of dancers is probably the *one* thing within the whole class that works ok....
Do you research, I am not twisting anyones words, I am mearly pointing out what we know and what at least part of the community is scared of...Just because I diseagree with you or Pan does not make me counter-productive, quite simply it adds to discussion, not once have I been rude or abrassive during this. I would hope for the same treatment, especially from somone who seemingly has very little knowledge on how exactly combat works.
Message Edited by Taewyn on 05-06-2004 11:22 PM
Oqua wrote:
Um, the only reason I brought up the bardic thing was because that was what your initial post seemed to be focusing on. When I look back at it I still see that same theme with the "blue bar healing".
Oqua, this appears to be a logical conclusion. It sure as goodness seems to be brought up everytime we talk about function. I was hoping to convey "I know blue damage healing will lead us down that bard path that we don't want, please try to talk about it anyway putting aside your feelings on EQ Bards. Here is some information I have found that might help you do that."
It was not meant to lead you to Bard as the answer... or anything else. I don't want to lead you to any one answer. The answer can be "we are fine" or "we would be better without function" even. What I keep saying I don't know how to answer is the idea that I am trying to scare you into something or falsify information. It's been said by a few people now. I still don't know what to say to that. I promise, that isn't my intention.
I don't want you to be worried about this, so if you would like to PM me... I will answer any questions you have on my motivation. I don't want to look like the Dancer Forum Dictator though, so I'm going to stop answering things like this here in the thread.
Taewyn wrote:
1) Mind disease is used in PVP just as often as mind poison and it is actually the preferred method to take someone out of the battle and keep them from zerging. This is one of the largest ways that entertainers can participate in and sway a battle to one side or the other. I have been at many a battle where the side with an entertainer was the winner due to this.
And this has to do with the current funtionality changing how? Again, it looks like your dancers did a fine job of counteracting the poison/disease without becoming bards...
Yes, I never said entertainers needed to become bards. I am simply stating that if the way HAM works changes then healing of it (damage and wounds) will change too.
Noone in the player base currently know exactly how the ham system will change and along with that all the ways to heal/damage/wound it. Why not discuss what your possible future role in this could be? What is the harm? Panthu isn't saying that they are taking away some dances to give you battle crys. Don't mistrue her words to try to make it sound like that, it is only counter-productive.
But, if you did your homework, you would have an Idea of how things are going....
Yes, I did my homework. I know all about the system that was put into place and then pulled. The key word here is "pulled". Most likely the system put into place finally will be drastically different from what was tested since it failed so horribly. So I will say again that noone knows exactly what the new system will be like and I see no problem with talking about possible ways to fit into and work with the new system and the GCW.
Also, I think its actually more counter-productive to try and find a new functionlaity in a system you know so little about, especially whent he current funtionality of dancers is probably the *one* thing within the whole class that works ok....
Why is it counter-productive to talk about what could be added to enrich a class? Noone is going to force anyone to do anything they don't want to and noone is talking about removing any of the current functionality just yet.
Do you research, I am not twisting anyones words, I am mearly pointing out what we know and what at least part of the community is scared of...Just because I diseagree with you or Pan does not make me counter-productive, quite simply it adds to discussion, not once have I been rude or abrassive during this. I would hope for the same treatment, especially from somone who seemingly has very little knowledge on how exactly combat works.
You and your wife to a lesser degree keep trying to say that "Panthu is leading you this way! Panthu is pushing for this!" Is your last name possibly McArthy in real life? She is just trying to have a good discussion here, which for the most part this thread has been great and hopefully it will not die due to this crap. As for the "very little knowledge" jab, put your money where youmouth is. Wanna take this from the forums to theserver buddy?
Yes, I did my homework. I know all about the system that was put into place and then pulled. The key word here is "pulled". Most likely the system put into place finally will be drastically different from what was tested since it failed so horribly. So I will say again that noone knows exactly what the new system will be like and I see no problem with talking about possible ways to fit into and work with the new system and the GCW.
Hmm, from your posts it sounds like you had no idea of what I was even intimating at, much less had an understanding of what was being patched in...
I also beg to differ about the HAM changes being fundamentally diffrent from how they apeared on test, I can say this with some confidence because of the devs track record with "internal testing", like the ever so famous crafting changes, which were realeased 2 months before they hit live and were pulled....(The devs did not change a thing, they simply pulled it once, then released it again 2 months later)
Now, I know some things will change, most likley the expotential formula governing regen VS HAM levels, however, in its truest form the changes will probably be the exact same....
Why is it counter-productive to talk about what could be added to enrich a class? Noone is going to force anyone to do anything they don't want to and noone is talking about removing any of the current functionality just yet.
Again, reread the original post....You will see where concern was drawn up about the combat-role direction and how it would jepordize the pure social aspect of the entertainment professions...
Other then that, I was mostly boggled by the need to change the one piece of functionality that actually works in an otherwise very under-developed class.....Macroing, Flourishes, dance move-lag-time and content are all huge problems that can be adressed now...However, even though I was a little dismayed, then only thing I adressed was the fact that the combat rebalance most likley would not change your original role...(again, unless somone knows something we do not....Which could be the case, which is all we were asking)
You and your wife to a lesser degree keep trying to say that "Panthu is leading you this way! Panthu is pushing for this!" Is your last name possibly McArthy in real life?
Mcarthy worked on fear and Ignorance, as well as stopping the dissemination of valuable information.....The information I provide is as accurate aswe currentlycan get and I am hardly using fear to push my beliefs...Infact, if I am saying anything at all, it is for people to calm down and not let *fear* of the combat balance ruin your game play or your class
You little attempt at wit, thought grand as it might have been in your mind, was a mis-nomer at best....If your going to insult, at least try to do it correctly. (You could have called me a jack-ass, at least you would not have sounded as dumb)
As for the "very little knowledge" jab, put your money where youmouth is. Wanna take this from the forums to theserver buddy?
So we can have our CM/Riflemen duel?
Knowledable about how combat works is not the same as being able to "pwn" somone with a FOTM, any monkey can grind riflemen/CM and hit the HS3/Mind poison button.....That does not make you knowledgable...
My7 year old brother can beat 6 people at once with his950 per tickmind poison+90% base/40% stun comp armor+40% synth steak+an ImpPSG +3k buffed HAM and his krayt Jawa Ion rifle (All I did was buy the game and give him the equipment)....He litteraly can not be defeated before the poison/HS shotskills somone. Yet, all he knows how to do is hit 4 buttons........I am surethough you can hitup to 5 in combination, your mom must be proud.
Knowing the equations, knowing why things affect things as they do...*That* is knowledge...Your small attempt to show me how "good" you are there-by showing me you know what your taking about, is laughable considering the extreamly broken state of the game right now....
I wont get into a who can defeat who...Because, if your powers of perception were as great as your powers intellect you would realize I am on tarq and your are on star-strider.....
Message Edited by Taewyn on 05-07-2004 12:15 AM