Dancer Archive
Thread: Combat Balance Issues for Dancer: Ent Healing, Bards, and our Future in the Game
morphemet wrote:
I can see some show-stopping problems with adding a general fatigue (gf) system:
2) the fact that player houses and cantinas can heal battle fatigue (bf). If bf is auto-healed in houses (does anyone know if this is a fact?) and cantinas, the fatigue rate for artisans would have to be fairly high and that might not balance well with combat rates.
I don't believe it auto-heals. But you can watch an entertainer and get your fatigue/wounds healed in a player house, cantina, city hall, etc. Something that does not happen in a starport, for instance. An entertainer is still required. (Can sitting in an empty NPC cantina slowly heal BF, like sitting in a med center slowly heals wounds? I've never heard of this.)
3) do dancers get gf too? It would seem unfair to task other classes with gf without it applying to our class too. The question then becomes, do dancers get to heal our own gf? If the answer is yes, then dancers basically get something for nothing. (I’m hearing whine machines again.)
Well I don't know...I mean we can heal our own mind wounds and battle fatigue now. If we take up novice medic we can heal our own action bar. It's kind of like that Image Designer situation - players will have to go to one to get a stat migration. But ID's can do their own stat migrations. The mechanics of doing it otherwise just don't make sense.
I'm more and more interested in just what the devs intend for the combat balance. Maybe they're already planning a different/expanded role for battle fatigue. Who knows? Panthu...?
I assumed GF would be slower for crafters/entertainers. Combat is stressful, after your life is on the line in combat, so it's natural for combat to be the fastest way of generating GF.
As for entertainers yes we should get GF too if it was implemented.
What I've been doing lately is watching. Taking a step back and seeing the whole system. I'm just now starting to see the effect of some of the things that happened when I became a corr. That was in the middle of January. That should give you an idea of how fast things operate. And that is for the faster stuff.
In the end there are two things I have seen that get the most attention. The first is a large group of players complaining loudly. As the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. These tend to evoke a hasty response, which is not always as beneficial as it may seem. Some exploits fall into this category, even if players aren't making noise about them directly. The 15 second pause is a good example of this. While it gives the instant gratification players want, it is hollow gratification. Typically the issues need to be revisited at best, or are left that way at worse.
I can assure you that is not the sort of response we are looking for. Nor do I think we could be heard over all the people screaming because they can't beat everyone up. Then there comes the other thing that is heard. It is slow, silent, and big. That is an entire community rallying behind a concept... Something grand, not just a little change here and there. And more importantly, something that fits in with the game well. The recent work on droids is a very good example. I can see there are a lot of new faces here... So for those who were here, pardon the history lesson. Last year, Droid Engineer was considered a joke. People kept the profession in hopes that something good would come of it. They started coming up with what that good would be. That got the eyes of the devs, just as we have done here. In the end, they presented what they wanted. In the end the devs have the final say in what the game is, but the idea was planted by the players. Without the players there backing the idea, the correspondent to present it, and the whole system that is in place, droids could still be mostly useless.
Unfortunately, it seems the ideas in this thread stopped around page 3 or 4. The last page was getting down to personal attacks. I'm not pointing any fingers here. Right now that is not what is needed. If the discussions always break down then nothing will be done. While the devs do read quite a bit, they need to spend time working too, and when a thread devolves into attacks, they will often tune it out.
You may or may not agree with what Panthu is saying. And that is fine. I don't agree with everything Panthu says or does, but that just makes the system healthier to have different viewpoints. What she is doing here, and what all the corrs are trying to do, is understand the community. The system doesn't always grant the leasure to have a long drawn out discussion and beat on things for a few weeks. I'm sure it will disappoint some people to hear it, but there are even times when snap decisions need to be made. An answer given, or an opportunity to push the community ideas. There is a wrong answer. If an idea is presented that warrants attention, TH will try and understand it, and he will know if it is something the community supports. Discussions like these, then, serve double purpose. It gives the corrs a pulse on the community, and when the time is right, it gives the devs the same thing.
There are a lot of strong opinions without anything to really draw on for guidance. There is room here for everyone's opinions and ideas. I've seen a lot of interesting ideas already here. The discussion has started to focus on one thing, but don't so easily discount other ideas. Help Panthu to help you, the dancers.
I have more to say.. But another post for that, as it is more in line with the thread.
"Along with everything that TH cited, the Entertainer was, at its heart, meant to appeal to the socializers in the game. Our goal was to provide a profession that allowed them to enjoy their preferred gameplay style while still providing a valuable role to the other players. Basically, we wanted to make them feel like they were contributing to the online community even while just hanging out and chatting. To that end, we made them part of the healing cycle. I do think we achieved our goal here; most of the Entertainers I know were drawn to the profession because of its very social nature and they enjoy meeting all the other players who must come to them for BF healing." - Haden Blackman (AKA Shug_Ninx), LucasArts Producer for Starwars Galaxies.
The system of battle fatigue was given to entertainers so they would be a part of the overall game, and to draw people to the cantinas. It certainly does both those.
However, it is in that utility that the profession is divided. You have the people who are in it for the social aspects, and you have the people who are in it for the utility aspects. The former wouldn't care if dancing did anything useful at all, and the latter wouldn't care if the healing/buffing involved standing in one spot and drooling for 5 minutes. Admittedly those are the extremes. Most people are somewhere inbetween, some even sitting on the party line. But there is definitely a bi-partisan representation of players. That, unfortunately severely limits the ideas that will get community support. There is also a secondary divide in entertainers, between the elite professions. This whole thread is relevant to musicians as much as dancers, and to an extent even image designers. Yet how many are posting here?
The other effect of the utility given the profession has already been mentioned. Battle fatigue is negative reinforcement. Note the use of negative there. That isn't just a term. Some players see it as a negative. How many people do you hear saying "Man I wish I had more battle fatigue so I could spend more time in the cantina." Players try and find the quickest way to get rid of it so they can get onto other things.
The idea of the general fatigue is interesting. It would certainly add more depth to things. However it would also add more negative reinforcement. The idea of buffs to more than just stats is also an interesting idea. But... At the heart, aren't they the same idea? In one case, you are entertained, your abilities are at a normal level, then they decrease until you are entertained again. In the other case, you are entertained, your abilities are at an increased level, then they decrease to normal until you are entertained again. The overall effect is the same. Yet the perception there is worlds of difference.
How do you think players would react to a change that as they went out and did things, their mind would be cut in half, then by watching a dancer, it could be restored to full again? They would probably resent it, and be upset about being forced to go see an entertainer. Yet that is, effectively, what we already do with mind buffs.
In the end, positive ideas and negative ideas are the same, it's just the spin you put on it that makes the difference. People keep saying how when you work all day on something, it is numbing and you need to take a break to relax. But, couldn't it also be said that having a great performance fresh in your mind will make the day seem brighter and the work easier?
Good luck with me, then...I'm both.
Panthu wrote:
I like happy dancers... not confused ones.
First, I'd like to start by saying I don't think moving to a General Mind Fatigue system would increase the negative feelings against us, but rather reduce them. Keep in mind that we don't live and perform in a real world--we exist is a shared cybernectic hallucination. We have outside demands on our time, so anything that adversely affects our play time is irritating.
As it stands now, BF *only* affects combat types, and the only way for those people who choose to engage in combat to get rid of the BF is to visit an entertainer in a cantina (or theater, or player house--we all know this, I'll just say cantina and everyone realise I am referring to any appropriate place). So if you want to spend your precious 3 hours of play time hunting Rancors or fighting PvP, you have to waste some of it with those pesky entertainers! Does a Tailor or Chef or Weaponsmith or Architect? No! Do the Entertainers? No! It's unfair! If you want to fight, you have to do something no one else does!
Now, if *everyone* had to "relax" in a cantina, no one would be singled out. Even the Entertainers would have to do it. It becomes a part of the game that applies to everyone so there is no reason to see it as a negative. Sure, lots of people (particularly the crafters that are not subject to it now) will complain mightily when it first comes out. But in 2 weeks everyone will accept it as part of the game, so there will be no negative aspect to it that can then be transferred to us Entertainers who are just trying to help, through 'healing', the players.
On the other hand, it will make visiting Entertainers important to everyone, which increases our worth. If we as Entertainers do our job, then visiting us becomes enjoyable and fun as well as important mechanically.
Ugh! ...my kingdon for an edit button...
I'd just like to say that a FULLY realise that this does not address the AFK/ATK issues and debate. Please try not to get carried away saying it only makes it worse. AFK/ATK is a problem no matter what the game mechanics of entertaining are, so let's address it separately.
[For the record, I don't think macros should be allowed to invoke macros at all, ever, for any profession. If you can't loop macros, the whole AFK issue just goes away.]
Oooooh, that's kinda cool! A little scary, but very cool!
Sultrina wrote:
Ok here is a wild idea. Lot's of folks think entertainers should be able to play the spy so here is how to do it. When a dancer/musician does /setp they choose weather to aply the buff or expose a covert. The patron wont knwo wich they are trying to do. The dancer must wait at least 2min and may wait up to 8min before they /expose the longer its runing the better chance of switching the victim to overt status.
Wow, after two pages of board-flame silliness, I'm glad to see this thread get back to a useful discussion of the game. Thanks to everyone in the last few posts who helped accomplish that.
In my no-doubt-too-long post above, I talked a lot about replacing "Battle" Fatigue with a more general Fatigue that is accrued for all types of activities. I want to clarify that I meant that General Fatigue should REPLACE Battle Fatigue in the game...BF would GO AWAY, along with the admittedly inconsequential penalty to healability and buffability that I believe were tacked on in an attempt to make BF mean something. So, under the system I propose, no type of fatigue would interfere with a medical professional's ability to heal a patient. Accruing General Fatigue would, instead, reduce your effectiveness using your skills. Furthermore, entertainer's ability to heal the blue bar in any way would GO AWAY, but NO ONE else would be able to restore Fatigue loss--which would be incurred by everyone, not just combatants. (Thanks, Cassie, for pointing out that at the moment, ONLY combatants need us as anything but customers; artisans, healers, and other performers have no need of our services, which does not support the interdependence underlying the game vision, nor does it reflect real life.)
Let me clarify HOW one would accrue Fatigue loss. You do not lose fatigue by walking, talking, standing, sitting, driving your speeder, browsing the bazaar, dancing without flourishing, etc. There is no mechanic in the game to which this could be readily attached, on a practical level, nor would it be managable for a player to keep track of. You would only "pay" Fatigue when you perform a task which already costs points from one or more of you HAM pools. Adding a Fatigue cost to these functions would be little more than a couple of lines of code...and if you made the cost a direct function of the actual HAM cost, it could be a very simple and universal couple of lines. Take a Survey, suffer a little fatigue. Execute a Flourish, suffer a little fatigue. Execute a Head Shot, suffer a little Fatigue. Toss a Heal, suffer a little fatigue. Simple. Universal. Fair. AND it makes one game mechanic (fatigue cost for activity) apply to ALL characters and activities, not just some, as the current BF singles out combatants as things stand.
The impact of loss of Fatigue is the diminishment of skill effectiveness, something which could be simply and universally implemented with a relatively small amount of code. Whenever anyone does an action which checks a skill, the game references their current Fatigue status. If they are currently at half of their "full" amount of Fatigue, their skill bonus is reduced by half. Thus, if they normally had a Rifle Aiming +30, but were at 50% Fatigue, they function as if they had Rifle Aiming +15. That would require only a few lines of code in the general skill-check routines, and would have a wide-spread AND FAIR impact on every profession, not just on combatants. And especially not on close-combat fighters over snipers, as the current BF system which is tied to injury currently plays out.
Furthermore, the gradual accrual of Fatigue (and it SHOULD be gradual...you shouldn't have to go get your Fatigue restored more than once every several hours of play), and the diminishing effectiveness of skills when Fatigue gets very high, would be a strong deterrent to AFK play. If you can't function effectively AFK, there is little point to leaving your avatar grinding all day while you are at work. (As an aside, for dancers...high fatigue reducing skill should increase the likelihood of falling--though falling shouldn't nearly as often as it currently does--AND falling should have a real penalty, not just an embarrassing animation. If you STOPPED dancing when you fall, are left sitting or prone, and couldn't start to dance again for 30 seconds or so, this would slightly inconvenience the infinitely-looping macros that AFK dancers use. It could also provide a practical reason for experienced dancers to actually DO the dances way below their level...their chance of falling should be significantly less on the more basic dances.)
At the same that Fatigue is changed from affecting only the ability of combatants to be healed and buffed, to affecting EVERYONE'S ability to perform skill-based tasks, the performer's abilities to buff should be shifted AWAY from the blue bar as well. Performers buffs shouldn't make any basic HAM stat higher, it should make the characters skills MORE effective. So, a character with a Dancer combat buff could recieve a plus to his attack-related skills (Aiming, Aiming while moving, etc.), while a Music-related combat buff could affect defensive skills (Melee Defense, Defense vs. Stun, etc.). Different dances and/or Songs would affect different skill groups...Rock/Basic might buff combat skills, while SW2/Footloose buff healing and scouting skills, or whatever. Again, this would give higher-level performers more incentive to perform the more basic dances, so that we don't all become sexy strippers at Master level...or at least not all the time.
And while Fatigue is expanded to affect everyone in the game--including us performers--entertainers GIVE UP the ability to heal or buff the blue bar in any way. We aren't brain doctors, and it is ridiculous and illogical for people to come to a gogo dancer inbar for a gunshot wound to the head, rather than seeing a surgeon in a hospital. Again, the idea that Blue Bar healing should be given to entertainers is a band-aid concieved to tie us into the combat portion of the game, a by-product of all that D&D-based thinking that we and Sony are trying to evolve past in SWG. We need to step PAST that, and look at dancers and musicians as serving a DIFFERENT function...we don't heal injury or disease, we ease stress and relieve fatigue. The two are separate in how they are incurred, and in how they are repaired.
With this system in place, EVERYONE, not just fighters, would need to hit the Cantina or a Theatre from time to time. The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that it is right, from a game play viewpoint, an inter-dependency of professions and characters viewpoint, and a reflection-of-real-life viewpoint.
Hoping, but not expecting, these changes will be made,
Khia Ka'Zrai, Master Dancer/Sniper on Bria
On the other topic in this thread, Performers in Combat, aka "The Bard Question"...
Giving performers an active role on the battle fieldis wrong-headed, old-style, D&D/EQ-style thinking, and should be dropped. You don't hear the Tailors whining that they want an ability to stitch the zippers on the enemies uniforms shut during combat. You don't hear the Chefs complaining that they can't hit the opposition in the face with cream pies while defending a faction base. Dancing and Music are flat-out non-combat professions. Like the other non-combat professions, our connection with combat is preperation (buffing) and recuperation (restoration of fatigue). Perhaps, in a very drawn out battle, there may be a role for active performance, well behind the lines, where performers get the soldiers ready to go back into battle, but this won't be the case in most smaller actions and hunts.