Dancer Archive

Because combat training does not teach agility. No combat skill (except perhaps that of the Teras Kasi Artist)improves a dancer's ability, whereas a dancer's agility is a bonus in combat.

You have to make a decision: Do combateers use agility, or not ? If they use agility, they can profit from more agility. But also, if they make use of it, they obviously trained it more than the next guy, which would make them a better dancer than the next guy. If they don't use and train agility, then the dancers agility is of no use to them. Either way... it always works both ways.

Exception would be a really dumb combateer, who badly needs agility, but stubbornly refuses to train because he likes to lose. Haven't met any of that sort, maybe they all flocked to your server

"You have to make a decision: Do combateers use agility, or not ? If they use agility, they can profit from more agility. But also, if they make use of it, they obviously trained it more than the next guy, which would make them a better dancer than the next guy. If they don't use and train agility, then the dancers agility is of no use to them."

Yes, I agree completely. If a combat professional gets taught agility skills, then that should make him/her a better dancer. However, that's not what was argued in the earlierpostabove.

"Either way... it always works both ways."

No. It doesn't, and that was my point inmy earlier post, and it goes to the heart of my argument. An armourer does not necessarily have the ability to focus his shots, which is why he would need high-level combat skills in order to use his advanced knowledge in combat. Without a very high degree of shooting accuracy, his advanced knowledge of armour is useless - 'cos he can't shoot accurately enough to make his knowledge work to his advantage. Thus an armourer would only be able to apply his knowledge if he had a high combat skill, commensurate with a master rifleman or similar - he could give a boost to his rifleman skills only at near the Master level. Also, if your argument had merit, a rifleman should naturally (if it works both ways)make a better armourer, but I'm hard-pressed to think of any skill that he has which would make him so.

Furthermore, adancer has muscle control that will be an advantage for defence even at relatively low levels of combat skill. A dancer who is also a combat professionalwill gain an advantage in combat due tofinely tuned reflexes and agility even if the dancer is a mere apprentice combat professional. A Teras Kasi Artist would naturally have a similar muscular control that would give him an advantage if he was to become a dancer, but a mere rifleman would not. Rifleman training does not give the same level of muscular control that dancing or TKA give, so a rifleman would not gain an advantage as a dancer.

So it does not always work both ways.

Just as a defense of Sinda here at least, she is not a proponent of battling dancers. She is quite happy with her additives at master level and uses them for her own sideprofessions. She was just clarifying some situational comparisons for people and saying that the "additional non-combat" training in reflexes can add over and above to someone with combat skills. But she sounds happy with what she has.

Beery does not, she is disconcerted that a non athletic entertainer also gets combat mods thus dissing the physical athleticism of dancing. Beery either wants an appreicable increase in combat modifiers to underline the physical fitness of dancers in combat or wants the modifiers removed from the musicians that are identical.

Personally I disagree with a lot Beery says, we have diametrically opposed views of the profession 9 times out of 10. I do not think dancers need any more show of appreciation for combat skills then they get, dont think it necessarily enhances the game or the playability of the profession and am not concerned enough about it to think musicians need nerfing for it. I'd rather we have creative, active people finding ways to use the social aspect and aesthetics of the profession in more ways in the game.

That being said, I don't think her/his posts are stupid or anyone here is trying to ruin things. A lot of different opinions and this is the place to come to voice them and maybe try tochange each other's minds aboutthings.

"...am not concerned enough about it to think musicians need nerfing for it"

Is it a 'nerf' if a musician shouldn't have got the benefit of this in the first place? I thought a 'nerf' was an unrealistic weakening of a realistic attribute. Are you saying that musicians have some kind of natural agility that I'm not aware of? If so, enlighten me.

well, if entertainers get bonuses to combat, lets jut take a look at two other non-combat classes

Weaponsmith - should get a nice fat bonus to damage and speed when using guns. After all, they made the $$ %$# thing and have a perfectly good idea of its workings and what to do to get the most out of it.

Armorsmith - anything they shoot at should, for damage purposes, have half the protection rating and the armor rating should be one class lighter. After all, they know all about how armor stops damage and how to find and exploit the weak points.

Oh, and both classes should give a group bonus since they can call out helpful advice and direction to others in the group as they fight.

FYI: Personally I don't think entertainers should get any sort of combat related skills. After all, they are use to working in a nice indoor place with air conditioning, a nice place to sit down to rest, a bar to get drinks from...you get the idea. Sure they can work while in a camp, but once again it is in CALM controlled conditions, not the frantic activities of battle. I mean, if you want to, you can stretch this whole idea of non-combat classes getting bonuses in combat and to a group. For example, a BH who is also an imagine designer gets bonus to find thier mark/target since they understnad better how each race looks and can spot disgises. Or the Imagine designer gets bonus to wounds since they can understand what is vital physical structure and what is just a fleshwound. Or maybe the droid engineer gets a bonus to all bot type creatures since they build and understand the things. Or the chef gives the group bonuses as he is constantly passing out snacks and fruit punch

Atone,

Thanks for the support on this issue. Isuspect the reason they're so quick to jump on anyone who supports this idea is that they're afraid that they'll have to get dancer XP in order to be the best in terms ofcombat. I think someof the more emotional malehomophobes and miscegynistsjust can't stand the idea of spending time "prancing about like a girl or like afairy" (as I've sometimesheard it described) in order to gain experience that will be useful in combat.

Some of the less mature guys - and let's face it, these guys are naturallyattracted tothe combat professions (Freud would have something to say about that I'm sure)- are just not comfortable exploring their feminine side, and for many, dancing falls into that area despite the fact that many heterosexual males have been professional dancers in all levels and in all eras. The type of player who has a prejudice against dancingrarely, if ever, plays female roles - they can't easily conceive of playing a female role even through an avatar (unless it's to fantasize about her). And playing a homosexual character would be totally inconceivable (roleplaying is almost a dirty wordin the minds ofthese players). There's not much that can be done about such thinly-veiledprejudice, except to hope that these folks will grow out of it. Sadly, many hold such prejudices well into middle age and beyond, which is why women still only get paid something like 70% of a man's salary in the exact same job.

Of course you'll now hear either a deafening silence, or a scathing rebuke from my detractors regarding this suspicion of mine. How dare I suggest such a thing? Well, I dare because it's about the only rational explanation for their wildly irrational and emotional outbursts regarding this issue.

No I'm not, I don't see any particular reason why they would get a bonus that helps in a physical situation, but I aslo don't think it matters or is important enough to arugue for its fix. Which is what I stated.

While your understanding of nerf is moreprecise I think its thrown around pretty generically these days. It would be "weakening" the profession of musician if they removed it, in that a bonus that could bebeneficial to a musician is being removed.

Whether they ever should have gotten it inthe first place is a moot point to my eyes (they have it now)and completely an unnecessary question for me on a dancer valuation level.

Isuspect the reason they're so quick to jump on anyone who supports this idea is that they're afraid that they'll have to get dancer XP in order to be the best in terms ofcombat.

Well, I can't speak for the others, but I am a dancer. And only a dancer ( +entertainer + musician + ID ) on one server. I'm a marksman on another. I think that's enough for my feminine site and enough for my testosterone macho site. What I don't want is mix the two, or rather mix the two in a way that dancers make better fighters, but fighters don't make better dancers.

You want to have a situation where a dancer/fighter is a better fighter than a nothing/fighter. Thats fine and logical. However, due to the same logic, a fighter/dancer should be a better dancer than a nothing/dancer.

Either both professions share their advantages, or they don't. It doesn't work one sided.

Do you want to have to combat to be the better dancer ? I sure don't. Entertainers don't belong to the battlefield. If you want to be both, take up a combat class. You do get a bonus for being master dancer. It would be more acurate to give these in smaller steps trough the skills, but the amount is fine. A master dancer should not get a better defense than a master markman. Dancer makes you better than nothing, but not better than a fighter.

You don't get the point do you???? How can fighting make you a better dancer??? I CAN"T IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!!!!!!!!!!.But the agility and quickness of dancing would help quickness for fighting!!!!

I do get your point, I just think it's bull. If quickness is required for fighting, don't you think fighters would train it more than the next guy ? So fighters would be better dancers than the next guy due to a better trained quickness. If this isn't a valid argument, swapping dancer and fighter in the above sentence should make no sense either.

I'm not saying I want this. It's crap. It's just what you want for dancers.

Actually fighting CAN make you a better dancer using the same argument that dancers make better fighters.

Perhaps not so much for a marksman but certainly for a brawler. For one thing, brawling develops strength and not in the way a powerbuilder inflates his muscles. Dancing requires strength and constitution, some dances require a lot of strength and constitution.

Balance, fighters, kick boxers anyone doing rolls and sweeps have great balance and a sense of where their gravity is, that always helps dancers.

Quick reflexes. A brawler has quick reflexes, quicker than a dancers I would always aruge, by necessity. Maybe not refined, maybe not trained to work with certain muscle groupsfor that arch and pose andthat pirouette, but reflexes that are trained for instant shifts would probably help a dancer.

So yes being a brawler or TKA probably would make a dancer a better dancer if you are using the argument that being a dancer helps to be a better combat person.

Should they be combined? Not for all the world in my mind. Not for Beery, not for anyone. Would I leave the game if they did? Nope. Would I stop dancing? Nope. Would I really care that much? Nope. Would just prefer a LOT more worthwhile things for the Game and the Profession then something that isalready given lip service to the increased conditioning of dancers who also do combat.

Perhaps not so much for a marksman but certainly for a brawler."

I absolutely 100% agree. I've never said anything different. A TKA Master should get the benefits in dancing the same as a Master Dancer should get in TKA. But a pistoleer should not get a benefit in dancing because pistoleers don't learn any dancing skills in pursuit of their profession. Dancers on the other hand...

Ah, #*@& it, I'm tired of making the same argument time after time. Some folks just can't see reason.