Dancer Archive
Thread: No forced interaction??
PoetDancer wrote:
Pappi wrote:
tell me about it... I was reading this thread, and the whole time thinking "panthu, why bother?" if my forum decided to give me this crap I'll just leave the threads alone. she does not deserve this type of treatment, nor does she have to put up with it.
no, people have not explicitly asked for BF removal. however, folks have expressed concern/resentment/etc towards the way combatants treat entertainers because it's necessary for them to stop their hunts and watch us, but they don't give us the respect we deserve because of the bots available. everybody have a different idea on what entertainers are, and no change the devs make can please everyone. so now the question is...
why do you think the change is a bad idea? lack of income, or that no one will watch us any more? we don't want combatants to force their playstyle on us, why should we force it on them? think about it and come up with (concise, essays are hard to read) constructive comments. no one important is going to take this seriously if it's just a thread of pointing fingers and looking for someone to blame for a decision you don't like.
We want concise comments? I don't think many on the "embrace the unknown" side of this really want that. They want a resounding "Yay! The best is yet to come." And it seems that every time one of us raises a reasonable concern, based on precedent, sound arguments, and well reasoned support for our claims, we are told, "but we don't know that."
Um, because I know some of how Pappi thinks about this sort of thing, I'm pretty sure there wasn't any hidden meaning to her point about making concise comments other than what she said: "essays are hard to read." And I imagine she said that for the sake of the correspondents, and from her experience as a former correspondent. The fact is we read a lot of posts - as the Musician correspondent, I find that I'm best informed if I read every single post made in the Musician, Entertainer, and Dancer forums, I read every Dev post using Dev tracker (and often read replies to any such posts I find pertinent or interesting), I read many posts in the correspondent forum, and then in addition any other random threads that catch my eye. If someone is able to make their point concisely, it simply makes my 'professional' life a little easier in that I get to spend less time reading and understanding the idea. Longer posts with elaboration on many ideas of course take more time to get the point across and are thus "hard to read." And I'm pretty sure that's all Pappi was talking about there.
PoetDancer wrote:
...Or is it that you have nothing of substance to justify your vision of the class?
uh, what?
post as long as you wish, it just won't be read. of course I might be mistaken that people post because they want others to read it...
So am I going to learn why buffs are good, or not?
Am I going to learn why BF is bad, or not?
If it is really that important of a change in perspective, I would think that the proponents of change here on this board would spare no words in describing specifically, and with great detail what exactly is the difference, and why dancers like me should not be concerned.
Those in this thread who think we are better off without BF have the burden of proving to us thatit was not in the interest of the game, the cantinas, and our professions. Not the other way around.
We who like the old systemhave been more than clear on how BF is not the issue, but then again,we shouldn't have to prove anything. It is those who wish to change the system that have the burden of proving to us that the systemfundamentally broken on a theoretical level, because many of us are fine with things in the manner in which they operate now.
Bluetags can stay out of it. In fact, they should stay out of it, and take notes.
I am not impressed with posts that go no further than, "Thecombat playersthink BF is forcing them into a playstyle they don't like, and therefore it must go."
I need to know specifically why thecombat playersthink this way, what is the specific thing that causes them to believe this about BF, and why specifically and with great detail itwill be different with non-combat buffs. And for me personally, it would be of great service to me, and many others who embrace the profession we know over a vauge and unproven vision of how some (and I emphasize, some) would rather have it, to start with the following points. And furthermore, I think each one of these questions is worthy of a thread devoted entirely to it:
1) We have no idea if the change from a BF draw, to a buff-only draw will promote unattended activity, or reduce it.
2)Frankly, the most vocal of developer proponents have not explained to me how BF healing is detrimental to live, playing dancers.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-09-2005 10:01 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
So am I going to learn why buffs are good, or not?
Am I going to learn why BF is bad, or not?
I have tried to explain my view on these points and it is clear to me that it's not helping you, Sirii. I truly wish I could explain my feelings and thoughts on this well enough for you to consider them, but it seems that I can't. 
I do believe Sultrina said it well on her resent visit to the forum and I know you've always respected her greatly, so please try to consider what she said here:
I don't claim to speak for her, but it seems like she sees the same potential here that I do for us. Of course, yes, we will have to see how well it is implemented after the fact. However, I see clearly what the goal of all of this is meant to be and I hope it is successful.
Sultrina wrote:
I’m really excited about these changes and don’t see nerf at all. BF used to be the hook that brought customers in and now inspiration buffs are the hook. It’s a better hook because we are giving the customers something they want rather then taking away something that was forced on them to give us purpose. I want to thank Sony from the bottom of my heart for turning an eye to making the class fun and entertaining rather then integral to the civil war
It can be very hurtful when you use quotes to snatch a key phrase out of someone'sdevotedly thought out post. Please be careful with this tactic.
5) There is a lot of talk about this "third space" theory, and it seems that most entertainers who want the cantina to be a "third space" for them are not considering we who wish the cantina to be a "second space," or a vocational space. To me, I don't go to the cantina to "hang out." If I wanted to do that, I'd be a rifleman, or Teras Kasi, and I'd be the one who is relaxing, and not working for tips.
Thanks for the support guys, my feelings did get hurt a little but that was silly of me. 
I will promptly get my dark blue butt out of this thread againthough because I really think I've tried to get any insight I might have out to my best effort already.
PoetDancer wrote:
1) We have no idea if the change from a BF draw, to a buff-only draw will promote unattended activity, or reduce it.
2)Frankly, the most vocal of developer proponents have not explained to me how BF healing is detrimental to live, playing dancers.
3)It hasn't been made clear to me how BF healing creates "forced interactions" amongst players, and "bad interactions" amongst players. I fail to see how BF healing forces us into the combat game, or BF healing forces combatants into a playstyle they do not like.
4)Those who think buffs are better draws than BF haven't explained tous exactly why buffs do not suffer from the same problems as BF healing. Be specific, detailed, and take as much space as you feel you need (I don't mind reading essays).
5) There is a lot of talk about this "third space" theory, and it seems that most entertainers who want the cantina to be a "third space" for them are not considering we who wish the cantina to be a "second space," or a vocational space. To me, I don't go to the cantina to "hang out." If I wanted to do that, I'd be a rifleman, or Teras Kasi, and I'd be the one who is relaxing, and not working for tips.
6) What should be the reasons a player is tipped in a buff-only model, and how are these reasons more in line with what this profession should be about than what we have in terms of BF?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-09-2005 10:01 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
1) We have no idea if the change from a BF draw, to a buff-only draw will promote unattended activity, or reduce it.
Thats true. But I don't see BF as being a draw for unattended play as it is, BF as far as anyone has been ableto say dose nothing post-CU, its just a nuber that the players have been conditiond to want to get rid of.
I have had guildies come in to see me with tons of BH, simply because I asked them all to hold onto it now that its dose not affect their combat. and they have not had a problem at all gettking 50-1000 BF for me to heal
2)Frankly, the most vocal of developer proponents have not explained to me how BF healing is detrimental to live, playing dancers.
It dosen't DO anything (that I know of) So if it dosen't do anything then why cause players to incure it it and have to get it healed??
3)It hasn't been made clear to me how BF healing creates "forced interactions" amongst players, and "bad interactions" amongst players. I fail to see how BF healing forces us into the combat game, or BF healing forces combatants into a playstyle they do not like.
I woud assume a "Bad interaction" is something that a player dosent want to do, and that serves no perpous to their combative end.(buying weapons and armor dosent fall under this because doing those things helps them in combat) .. no one wants to stop hunting to get wounds and BH healed.. so its "Bad interaction"
Its "Forced interaction" because BF has no affect on the players. If it had an affect on combat, or crafting or something, then Idon't think it would be "Forced interaction""
4)Those who think buffs are better draws than BF haven't explained tous exactly why buffs do not suffer from the same problems as BF healing. Be specific, detailed, and take as much space as you feel you need (I don't mind reading essays).
Again, BF dose nothing... buffs DO something for the player, its as simple as that (at least in my mind)
5) There is a lot of talk about this "third space" theory, and it seems that most entertainers who want the cantina to be a "third space" for them are not considering we who wish the cantina to be a "second space," or a vocational space. To me, I don't go to the cantina to "hang out." If I wanted to do that, I'd be a rifleman, or Teras Kasi, and I'd be the one who is relaxing, and not working for tips.
Never did understand that "third space" stuff myself
6) What should be the reasons a player is tipped in a buff-only model, and how are these reasons more in line with what this profession should be about than what we have in terms of BF?
Again, BF dose nothing... buffs DO something for the player, its as simple as that. Why tip a player to remove something that your being forced to get that has no affect?
I would be more likely to tip for buffs then for BF healing (If i were in that situation)
Just my Oppinions If you can find a dev posting about what BF dose post-cu let me know
Message Edited by --Qilue-UCW-- on 07-10-2005 01:30 AM
PoetDancer wrote:
So am I going to learn why buffs are good, or not?
Am I going to learn why BF is bad, or not?
If it is really that important of a change in perspective, I would think that the proponents of change here on this board would spare no words in describing specifically, and with great detail what exactly is the difference, and why dancers like me should not be concerned.
Those in this thread who think we are better off without BF have the burden of proving to us thatit was not in the interest of the game, the cantinas, and our professions. Not the other way around.
We who like the old systemhave been more than clear on how BF is not the issue, but then again,we shouldn't have to prove anything. It is those who wish to change the system that have the burden of proving to us that the systemfundamentally broken on a theoretical level, because many of us are fine with things in the manner in which they operate now.
Bluetags can stay out of it. In fact, they should stay out of it, and take notes.
I am not impressed with posts that go no further than, "Thecombat playersthink BF is forcing them into a playstyle they don't like, and therefore it must go."
I need to know specifically why thecombat playersthink this way, what is the specific thing that causes them to believe this about BF, and why specifically and with great detail itwill be different with non-combat buffs. And for me personally, it would be of great service to me, and many others who embrace the profession we know over a vauge and unproven vision of how some (and I emphasize, some) would rather have it, to start with the following points. And furthermore, I think each one of these questions is worthy of a thread devoted entirely to it:
1) We have no idea if the change from a BF draw, to a buff-only draw will promote unattended activity, or reduce it.
2)Frankly, the most vocal of developer proponents have not explained to me how BF healing is detrimental to live, playing dancers.
3)It hasn't been made clear to me how BF healing creates "forced interactions" amongst players, and "bad interactions" amongst players. I fail to see how BF healing forces us into the combat game, or BF healing forces combatants into a playstyle they do not like.
4)Those who think buffs are better draws than BF haven't explained tous exactly why buffs do not suffer from the same problems as BF healing. Be specific, detailed, and take as much space as you feel you need (I don't mind reading essays).
5) There is a lot of talk about this "third space" theory, and it seems that most entertainers who want the cantina to be a "third space" for them are not considering we who wish the cantina to be a "second space," or a vocational space. To me, I don't go to the cantina to "hang out." If I wanted to do that, I'd be a rifleman, or Teras Kasi, and I'd be the one who is relaxing, and not working for tips.
6) What should be the reasons a player is tipped in a buff-only model, and how are these reasons more in line with what this profession should be about than what we have in terms of BF?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-09-2005 10:01 PM
sirii it changed... live with it, there's no need to be a drama queen and when you bought and paid for this game no one said they would write you a bible indicating the intricate reasons for each change... now if you would so people know your not completely obsesive compulsive over this game, apologise to panthu
Why Panthu? That post wasn't even made in response to a Panthu post.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-11-2005 01:55 AM