Dancer Archive

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Chessack wrote:


Wherever he is, whatever he is doing, I would bet you serious money that Holocron is crying over what has happened to this game he helped design. But it's not just SWG, it's the industry in general. These games started out as MMORPGs. What they have mostly become is MMOGs... and the difference may seem subtle to some but if you understand it, it's rather a sad transition. And no, I am not talking about whether people "roleplay" but a difference in fundamental game design philosophy.... Ah well... it's getting off topic.

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There are so many issues in this thread I can't even keep them all straight. But, to address what Chessack said above...

Despite my anger at certain things, I always end up feeling guilty afterwards for bashing the devs. I mean, they are human too and I know it would depress the hell out of me to read forums where everybody was criticizing me. Having said that...I think what Chessack said is true. I like the vision at launch more than I like the vision now. Even though entertaining is more enjoyable now than it has been the past year for me, I think the original vision was better, the way it was implented (AAAFFFFFFFFFFFKKKKKKKKKKK) ruined it. But, despite all the issues I've had, especially with the CU and the level system, I keep on playing SWG. Why? First, of course, is, it's comfortable and I have a lot of friends here. But, second is, despite the travesty of the CU, and despite the fact that entertaining, crafting and combat has become less complex, SWG still maintains the #1 spot when it comes to complexity and diversity. There's no other game that really comes close. There is no other game where you have entertainers.

SWG still stands out for me, and I believe it does so because of the original devs' vision. If we had the people in charge making the decisions that were made about the CU, I bet there'd be no entertainer professions at all, there wouldn't be such complexity and diversity. And, really, we probably wouldn't even have a profession system, it probably would have all been based on levels from the very beginning. I'm glad that at least we have the legacy of what was put in originally that allows this game to maintain its individuality in this particular market. I don't know if it'll last forever. But, until it is, I guess I will keep playing because, simply put, nothing better has come along. And, if the game did turn out that way at the beginning...levels, no entertaining, no complexity, etc., I probably would have stopped playing after a couple of months. The current people in charge owe a multitude of thanks to those original devs who set up the game this way, because it is the only reason a lot of us are still here. There's simply nothing better yet.

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Chessack wrote:
Sorry for a 2nd post but I just noticed this little tidbit...

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I have no problem with people being worried about this

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You certainly act like you DO have a problem with people being worried. In fact, every time anyone dares to make an eloquent post saying just how worried she (or he) is about the changes on the TC and what impact those will have on the profession, you say, in effect, "Shh! If the devs hear you we might get all the changes shelved!"

That doesn't sound like someone who "has no problem" with people being "worried about this." If you really had no problem with it, you wouldn't try to shut them up.

C

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Dude, screw this. I don't post here to get caught up in flame fests. Yes, I do get worried when there is too much of what I think of as "dev bashing" - which is totally different than being nervous about change.

I've always been a bit of a cheerleader and I don't know why that's surprising anyone now. I am generally perky and hopeful, I would have most likely been supportive of any positive changes the devs tried to bring us.

I've said it enough as to why dev bashing makes me nervous, if you decide not to care about the consequences, fine. I'll not be made out to be a villain here when I've only tried to help this community get to its goals. If you honestly think I have been unfair or malicious with anyone, then you have grossly misread my actions and I am sorry I have not come across well.

That's it, I'm out of this thread. Bash me all you want. *shrug*

Message Edited by Panthu on 07-08-2005 03:03 PM

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Panthu wrote:

The term came from us in here, it's not a Dev spin. Please get over it.

I swear to gawd, I've never been a dev fan girl and this constant dev bashing is getting on my nerves. The devs aren't the end all be all, but they also aren't stupid/mean/evil.

They're just some dudes trying to make a fun game for everyone. This is something we asked for and they are trying to see if they can make it work for us.

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Ok, first off I feel pretty responsible for setting you off. Sorry. It was before I'd had my morning coffee, and allI wanted to do was to bring up the contradictions in the theory behind removing BF. That being:

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You can't make any kind of enhancement without forcing people into interacting with us.

If you make it so it's not really needed, most folks will find it worthless, and we'll have empty cantinas. If you make it too mandatory, people will despise us and be filled with spite, like we've had for a long time now. You can't win, because the Devs have very, very rarely ever found the true middle ground in doing anything - it's usually to extremes.

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Now, true, I'm bashing the Devs there - but I find it easily supportable. Jedi healing was too high, now it's too low. BH's were too underpowered, then they were too overpowered, now it looks like they'll be underpowered again. Doctors pre-CU were huge money makers and could use tumblers to get xp, now they're hard-pressed to make any real income or even get xp in any easy manner (nothing outside of combat gives xp, including wound heals). There are myriad examples of professions taken to one extreme or another, but rarely adjusted "just right."

This is less bashing, more "prepare yourselves that this may not get done right the first time." Don't be surprised if we get the same spite from non-combatants as we did from combatants, because they feel we're "forcing" our playstyle on them - because the new things require us to get them and "don't cost us anything to provide." On the other hand, we could end up with nobody going into cantinas.

Don't take this personally, Panthu - just as the Devs shouldn't take it personally.

This is not a personal attack.

This is my way of saying, "We could end up right where we were, and I'm determined to NOT have that happen, and I hope the Devs are committed to that, as well."

If they're just a bunch of folks who want to make a fun game, then I'd best not end up with empty cantinas across the galaxy, or spite coming from a new group of folks. I want things to be fun again.

They may not have come up with the term, but JF used it as the justification for taking BF out of the game, which means, whether it's "spin" or not, and whether they came up with it or not, they buy the logic that interaction should not be forced, in the case of entertainers.

But not, apparently, in the case of doing various quests on Kashyyyk where you have to have a group; nor in the case various JTL content that can't be soloed; nor in the case of doctors being the only ones (again barring the special cases of TKAs) who can heal your wounds; nor in the case of crafters being the only ones who can provide other players with items they need to perform their profession properly. In all these other cases, interaction is at the least encouraged, and most people would say it is forced, and this is seen, by the devs and those who agree with their design philosophy, as a good thing (tm) because this is an MMO and player interaction should be expected in an online game with multiple players. In these cases it's OK for there to be forced, or at least very substantially rewarded and encouraged interaction (which to a gamer looking to uber himself out, amounts to entirely the same thing).

Yet in the case of BF and entertainers, interaction shouldn't be pushed on people. In that case, and ONLY in that case, it should be entirely voluntary.

It's a double standard. That the idea came from us doesn't change the fact that the devs are now using this logic as a design basis for one class and only one class -- and ironically, it's the social class they're doing it to.

C

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ZinaTheMaker wrote:

panthu,

i do not think u should bow out, your voice is very well respected and listened to. you are dedicated and extremely smart. and you are panthu

i for one appreciate the fighting and words of wisdom you have. dont let anyone ever tell you or convince you otherwise. people like you are the reason professions move in positive direction. keep it that way

*hugs*

*kisses*

*crafts panthu some hawtpants*

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tell me about it... I was reading this thread, and the whole time thinking "panthu, why bother?" if my forum decided to give me this crap I'll just leave the threads alone. she does not deserve this type of treatment, nor does she have to put up with it.

no, people have not explicitly asked for BF removal. however, folks have expressed concern/resentment/etc towards the way combatants treat entertainers because it's necessary for them to stop their hunts and watch us, but they don't give us the respect we deserve because of the bots available. everybody have a different idea on what entertainers are, and no change the devs make can please everyone. so now the question is...

why do you think the change is a bad idea? lack of income, or that no one will watch us any more? we don't want combatants to force their playstyle on us, why should we force it on them? think about it and come up with (concise, essays are hard to read) constructive comments. no one important is going to take this seriously if it's just a thread of pointing fingers and looking for someone to blame for a decision you don't like.

The fact of the matter is if you do not force people into cantinas, they never will come in the first place. Force is a nice thing...it is not forced interaction...the forcing of using buffs, removing BF, wounds, etc creates the interaction. That is all I will say. I have never heard a good alternative from anyone who suggests that they don't want these types of things because it makes the combat players 'treat them poorly.' Without a reason to come in to a cantina, no one will, hence the need to just remove the profession entirely.

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Schardour wrote:

BF was a draw to the cantina, not an interdependency. Buffs were our skill, but those proved to be ill-conceived. (Maybe well-conceived at launch, with their limited effect. )

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It's hard to make this argument given that ONLY a master could give any sort of buff at launch, and it was very limited (as you say), and given that 12 different boxes in 3 different trees (1 ent, 2 of either musician or dancer as your prof determined) were named "Healing".

At launch there were 10 things that could be permanently wounded and healed -- BF and 9 stats. Of those 10, the "trump" was BF, and we were given that plus 3 of the other 9, or 40% (or more, since BF was the "trump") of the healing to be had in the game. To make the argument that "we were never meant to be healers" is just to ignore the original game design. Entertainers and Medics together were designed to be healers... with entertainers being the more "social" of the two. The game warped far, far away from that in very short order with the introduction of buffs and all, but no, we were not intended to be buffers in the original design, or the healing trees would have been called "buffing" trees and our experience would have been called entertainer "buffing" experience, rather than healing experience.

We WERE intended to be healers initially. We actually worked pretty well when the game launched. The changes to the game since Holocron, the original main designer, left (massive mind buffs, hologrinding, the CU with the removal of mind wounds, and now this) have changed our role as well, but the original intention was most definitely that we be healers.

The original intention was also inter-dependency. The game was designed with the idea that the players provide everything, including all the content. Now unfortunately, the Achilles' heel that Holocron always had (true in UO, his first effort, and then SWG, and probably will follow him wherever he goes) is that he gives players more credit for creativity than they actually display. Players proved singularly unable, or unwilling, to make their own content, and so the game had to be changed.

That also explains why I liked the old system better than the new... I was pretty darn good at making up my own content, so I was never bored.

C

I know this is completely off the wall, but go with me on this for a minute...

Let's say you're building a game where balance was a key factor. Nobody could label a single template as "the best." You have 3 HAM pools,with 2sub-pools in each. It'sa complex system where every action has a different consequence. This makes each profession absolutely unique. You think everybody's going to love it....(and they do.)

If there was no consequence to healing (limited to HAM pools, like every other profession), the game would seem unbalanced. In order to ensure Medics aren't over-powered,you don't want to allow them the ability to heal their own mind wounds. Who does that ability go to? The entertainers...who've already been assigned Battle Fatigue, another "mental" healing process. So, this social profession, which was given a rather inconsequential 'wound' to heal (BF didn't do much until people started tanking krayts),is also given a role as balancing the medic profession.

So now bots start providing the same services as the players, and the real players stop getting tipped, buffs are introduced as income potential, blah blah blah....fast forward to today.

We change the HAM system to make it less complex. (Who wants to work with that much code, anyway? 3 pools is easier than 9.) The balancing isn't necessary for the new system, so we remove the actual healing skills from the Entertainers. They're no longer needed to keep medics from being PvP Gods. They have a limited pool that keeps them in check. All that's left is BF, the draw to the cantina. It doesn't do anything positive for the game. It bores the crafter, and a Dancer doesn't give a crap about the BF of the player. That's not interdependency....that's Dependency. Dancers don't need BF to enjoy the core oftheir profession...a social/entertainer profession, not a service/crafter/combatant profession. Why not introduce a new factor that both parties can benefit from? People rarely tip healers, or appreciate their aid. But a buff....that's something a person can appreciate!

SO....we've successfully addressed the problem of removing a pointless, unnecessary dependency on a social profession, and given both parties something that might be useful to themselves AND others. All that's left is to work on the problem of unattended characters reaping the same benefits of attended characters. I think we should be working for that (using anti-afk grinding jedi arguments to support our cause), instead of b!tching at the devs for trying to do us and other players a favor...

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Schardour wrote:

I know this is completely off the wall, but go with me on this for a minute...

Let's say you're building a game where balance was a key factor. Nobody could label a single template as "the best." You have 3 HAM pools,with 2sub-pools in each. It'sa complex system where every action has a different consequence. This makes each profession absolutely unique. You think everybody's going to love it....(and they do.)

If there was no consequence to healing (limited to HAM pools, like every other profession), the game would seem unbalanced. In order to ensure Medics aren't over-powered,you don't want to allow them the ability to heal their own mind wounds. Who does that ability go to? The entertainers...who've already been assigned Battle Fatigue, another "mental" healing process. So, this social profession, which was given a rather inconsequential 'wound' to heal (BF didn't do much until people started tanking krayts),is also given a role as balancing the medic profession.

So now bots start providing the same services as the players, and the real players stop getting tipped, buffs are introduced as income potential, blah blah blah....fast forward to today.

We change the HAM system to make it less complex. (Who wants to work with that much code, anyway? 3 pools is easier than 9.) The balancing isn't necessary for the new system, so we remove the actual healing skills from the Entertainers. They're no longer needed to keep medics from being PvP Gods. They have a limited pool that keeps them in check. All that's left is BF, the draw to the cantina. It doesn't do anything positive for the game. It bores the crafter, and a Dancer doesn't give a crap about the BF of the player. That's not interdependency....that's Dependency. Dancers don't need BF to enjoy the core oftheir profession...a social/entertainer profession, not a service/crafter/combatant profession. Why not introduce a new factor that both parties can benefit from? People rarely tip healers, or appreciate their aid. But a buff....that's something a person can appreciate!

SO....we've successfully addressed the problem of removing a pointless, unnecessary dependency on a social profession, and given both parties something that might be useful to themselves AND others. All that's left is to work on the problem of unattended characters reaping the same benefits of attended characters. I think we should be working for that (using anti-afk grinding jedi arguments to support our cause), instead of b!tching at the devs for trying to do us and other players a favor...

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That's all good and well, and a very well-written post, but as has already been pointed out multiple times in this and other threads, only the part marked in green is true, so far. The part in red isn't, and that's where your argument falls apart - for now, and until this part is made true.

We have NOT gotten our replacement yet for something they have chosen to remove from us. Now I don't doubt that we will get it, but I'm also one of those who just don't understand why they couldn't wait with the removal of BF until the new buffs were ready. Not because necessarily BF was at this moment still so useful to us, because it wasn't. It's impact was marginalized already. And for that exact reason they could just as well have kept it in for another few weeks. Because of the message removing it sends to the entertainer community, the feelings of hopelessness and of "we're getting nerfed and don't get anything in return" it causes.

The largest problem in the removal of BF for me isn't that it is no longer there for us to heal it, but the vacuum it leaves behind in our skill trees. A vacuum that has to be filled by taking stuff out of other skill boxes, diluting and nerfing our professions.

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Landlubber wrote:

Because of the message removing it sends to the entertainer community, the feelings of hopelessness and of "we're getting nerfed and don't get anything in return" it causes.

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Schardour wrote:

Ok people, really....I think your beef is with Unattended Gameplay, not passive Inspirations or passive BF healing. Whether you're providing a service before or after combat, or before or after a crafting session, it's still wellwithin the ability of a live performer to ENTERTAIN their "patron" or "guest" or "friend," making the process quick and painless. I don't give a sh!t if you think more people would visit you to heal BF than to get an Inspiration buff....the devs don't want the Fatigue in the game anyway!!!! Did you not pay attention to the freakin' CU notes? UNLEARN WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED! BF is a combat component, NOT AN ENTERTAINER COMPONENT. We're not healers! They don't want us to be healers! (I don't think they ever really planned for us to be healers.) BF was a draw to the cantina, not an interdependency. Buffs were our skill, but those proved to be ill-conceived. (Maybe well-conceived at launch, with their limited effect. )

Unattended performers reduce us to service machines. There's no personality. Nothing. The profession becomes a number-based supporter for the troops when the essence of "Entertaining" is lost in the cantinas.

Quit holding on to an out-dated vision and start looking toward the future, already. Damn...

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Pappi wrote:

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ZinaTheMaker wrote:

panthu,

i do not think u should bow out, your voice is very well respected and listened to. you are dedicated and extremely smart. and you are panthu

i for one appreciate the fighting and words of wisdom you have. dont let anyone ever tell you or convince you otherwise. people like you are the reason professions move in positive direction. keep it that way

*hugs*

*kisses*

*crafts panthu some hawtpants*

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tell me about it... I was reading this thread, and the whole time thinking "panthu, why bother?" if my forum decided to give me this crap I'll just leave the threads alone. she does not deserve this type of treatment, nor does she have to put up with it.

no, people have not explicitly asked for BF removal. however, folks have expressed concern/resentment/etc towards the way combatants treat entertainers because it's necessary for them to stop their hunts and watch us, but they don't give us the respect we deserve because of the bots available. everybody have a different idea on what entertainers are, and no change the devs make can please everyone. so now the question is...

why do you think the change is a bad idea? lack of income, or that no one will watch us any more? we don't want combatants to force their playstyle on us, why should we force it on them? think about it and come up with (concise, essays are hard to read) constructive comments. no one important is going to take this seriously if it's just a thread of pointing fingers and looking for someone to blame for a decision you don't like.

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qfe

/hugs panthu!