Dancer Archive
Thread: what a CSR said in regard to afk macroing
Kuildeous wrote:
Yes, an AFK dancer does not prevent me from receiving xp or from interacting with the good players of the game. It does, however, encourage people to not bother tipping real entertainers since they have free bots. It does, also, discourage entertainers from checking out advanced planets because they're not sure that a bot will be there, making the trip not as worthwhile.
Great post, Kuildeous. Let me add one more thing to your list of effects.
The general perception among many in the non-entertainer community is that entertainers are Carebear-Sims-AFK Zombie-bots who have no real purpose in the game. The feelings of resentment run very high simply because other professions resent the fact that THEY have to play at their keyboard and "risk death" (or would if insurance was implemented) while they see so many entertainers with that big glowy "AFK" sign over their heads - or worse yet, running macros that make it appear they're there when they really aren't.
So the end result of all this AFK Macroing has been further disrespect for a profession that had a tough time getting respect in the first place. That's one big reason I think the improved Mind Pool buffs will help - we will actually have something to offer. If I ran the programming group at SOE, I'd make it my top priority to completely remove XP from anyone who isn't at their keyboard for longer than 10 minutes (well, actually I'd insert a snippet of code so they automatically accepted /duels too, but that's just my evil side). The only way we're going to regain our lost respect is to have both of these features implemented - something to offer othersplus the knowledge that we achieved our titles the honest way. We earned them.
Sinda wrote:
So the end result of all this AFK Macroing has been further disrespect for a profession that had a tough time getting respect in the first place. That's one big reason I think the improved Mind Pool buffs will help - we will actually have something to offer. If I ran the programming group at SOE, I'd make it my top priority to completely remove XP from anyone who isn't at their keyboard for longer than 10 minutes (well, actually I'd insert a snippet of code so they automatically accepted /duels too, but that's just my evil side). The only way we're going to regain our lost respect is to have both of these features implemented - something to offer othersplus the knowledge that we achieved our titles the honest way. We earned them.
Yeah, I did omit that. That's mostly because I still get respect despite some of these people who view entertainers with disdain. I simply don't care enough about their opinions.
But there are entertainers who feel their image is tarnished by AFKers, and I do not mean to belittle their feelings just because I don't share them.
I would think that logically you might conclude that the wording is unclear and it implies third party program macros. (Having accepted you word that is indeed what the EULA says, I'm not going to be bothered to look it up. It would be illogical to assume it means all macros including those inherent in the game, as the game allows you to create macros. It would be akin to saying the game forbids allowing you to e-mail other people and then putting in a system to e-mail them in game.
But I will test the waters so to speak. here is a simple loop macro that can be done in game with the game tools provided. Create your new macro and put it in the F12 slot on your toolbar. Make the command lines of your macro read:
/flourish 8; /pause 1; /flourish 8; /pause 10; /ui action toolbarSlot11
the toolbar slotnumbers go from 00-23 where the F1 slot=00 the F12slot=11 the Shift F1slot=12 the ShiftF12slot=23.
This simple macro was created entirely in game using only the ingame tools and does not involve any third party programs.The in game macro systemactually allows for creativity in dancingor music in that you can put together combos that are visually or audibly appeasing instead of just a chaotic mix of flourishes.
right on denisa,
i have to wonder if this"comunity relation representative" on a Forum board knows anything more about the trhe in-game policys than we do - maybe she mixed up the TOS for the forums with the TOS of the game lol.
for her to state something that explosive while the EULA so obviously says different is irresponsible to say the least
Hehe, the tone of that responce tells me you are another L337 scriptkiddy, you got Pwned.
hahaha did you deduce that from my tone alone?! how apt! what was it about my tone that made you come up with that? do you know what 'tone' means?
i wonder what the tone of your 'responce' can tell me? lol.
Didn't check to see if this was posted yet, but this is what Q just said about the subject:
The designers are working on ways to make AFK entertaining less desirable. I'm not sure where they are in the process.
In the meantime, I agree with most of the posters here. Don't tip AFK entertainers. If you have a choice, watch/listen to a non-AFK entertainer instead of an AFK one. Whenever possible try to role play with Entertainers. It keeps you both engaged and is a good way to learn about local news/legends.
The true purpose of a cantina is a meeting place where you will more than likely run into other players and learn from them or start groups with them.
Kevin "Q-3PO" O'Hara
SWG Community Relations Manager
Oh and Jessica, could you request that SOE clarifies #7 of the EULA to actually say 3rd party macros instead of just macros? As a legal document it is required to be specific and it currently only states macros which allow for unattended play but does not make a distinction bewteen in game and 3rd party macro systems. If SOE truly meant 3rd party system they really need to clarify that in the EULA.
Thanks!
Except that's not what happens. They take up space in the cantinas, never talk to anybody, and then usually the moment they get their Master title (which they've helped to make worthless), they surrender their skills. They are then replaced in line by yet another Macro-zombie and the cycle starts all over again. The retired MacroMaster has added exactly ZERO to the profession except to make the rest of us ashamed and angry.
DiusFidus wrote:
In response to Sinda
1. Why does someone else need to be enforced to have a wide group of friends? Its a multiplayer game with many different styles, Maybe some people choose to have a small close knit group of friends. I just dont see how your comment refutes my point that afkers still help with xp gain.
If you took my comments as a refutation of your points, you're mistaken. The AFK issue really doesn't have anything to do with XP gain - SOE could write a program to allow us to group with NPCs for XP and it would accomplish exactly the same thing as grouping with AFK Macroers. The issue is not XP gain, the issue is whether AFK macroers are adding anything to the game experience. THEY ARE NOT.
I also "grew up" with musicians and dancers and image designers who were mostly there and I mastered Entertainment, musician and Image and most of dance. I still understand and accept afk macroers, and whenever I am in a Cantina like Bestine or Theed I will gladly lend my services to all aspiring entertainers regardless of whether they are afk or not.
Well, good for you, but I think you're indirectly enabling a very destructive habit. The more of these AFKers who know how the rest of us feel (or most of us anyway), the more of them who might actually decide to stop and play the game, instead. Or quit the game altogether - no big loss.
2.Thats why I said most likely. If you are the only musican performing on Endor, tehn it doesnt really matter if you are afk or not you'll probably still get tips from people.
Again, a moot point. We've already heard the "I'm only there to help other people" argument, and it invariably ignores the fact that these AFKers are taking a job better done by someone who is actually at the keyboard --- or actually forcing the adventurers to seek out a live entertainer instead of settling for a non-interactive robot.
3. When SWG was first released, there were fewer people and the game was new.
It took roughly 2 weeks to hit 200,000 subscribers, as I recall. I think that's a pretty healthy population. Aside from that, my point stands about the benefits of grouping with people who are not AFK. The player connections are very valuable for the rest of one's game career, both professionally and personally.
After hearing SW1 played over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over surely you might admit that it gets monotonous.
Who told you aboutmy nervous twitches and mouth-foaming at the sound of SW1?
Seriously - one of the beauties of the group I played with in Theed was that they had much more variety than that. In fact, as soon as an entertainer makes Novice Musician their selection of songs becomes at least tolerable. The Theed group could play everything short of Virtuoso, and it's when I first realized that the music in SWG was remarkable for its depth, its flexibility and its variety. So, SW1 ceased to be an issue as soon as I moved away from Mos Eisley cantina.
There is just as little variety to the dances and so for a skill class that has a fixed dictaion of skill progression of course the journey is going to get boring, especially if you decide to move to another galaxy and want to still be an entertainer but dread doing the same stuff over and over again.
All I can say is, if you find Dancer boring as a Novice, it's not going to get any better at Master and you'd better quit now. I don't take my joy in the class from how many flourishes I have (though more flourishes make for a better show). I take my joy from the people I'm with and the audience I'm talking to. I take it from inventing new ways to use the limited tool set we do have - and a good imagination can come up with all kinds of interesting variations.
If you want to blame someone for Theed not being lively, then blame the wide group of friends you grew up with who evidently moved on I guess. There is no reason why you can't get them all back to Theed for nightly cantina fun is there?
So you're saying they're the only people who know how to stay at their keyboards and interact? Nobody else has ever mastered that skill?
6. Thats your perogative. I've seen often people who are masters ask for leadership of a group then start booting people who are afk without asking the group how they felt. I will leave the group everytime, when this happens and would rather perform by myself then be grouped with such puerile people.
If you want to be insulting, we can do that, just let me know. Meanwhile, I don't get the impression that it's ever dawned on you just what has happened to entertaining as a profession with the rise of the AFK macroer. There are now more AFK Macroers in the cantinas than there are live players - I think it's been weeks since I've seen a cantina that was otherwise. The initial resentment from other players (the ones who decide whether to tip us) has ballooned into near rage at the idea that WE have the ability to gain Master status without ever being at our keyboard. We can become Masters while we sleep, eat, use the toilet and go to movies. They resent us because they can't.
So that's why I'm suggesting that SOE balance the field -- let everyone macro. If entertainers can reach high level without really playing, why can't Creature Handlers and Scouts and Bounty Hunters? Set up a truly comprehensive macro system so EVERYONE can macro their way up. If that's too much trouble, just eliminate players altogether and substitute NPCs. NPCs can do just as good of a job as an AFK Macroer, except they don't pay SOE $15 a month to give their character big boobs.
I find any "polls" done on the board nonfactual and unrealistic samples of the entertainment class as a whole. First, the boards are not open to everyone without having to sign up and register etc. Second only a very very very minute section of the people who are entertaienrs even bother posting.
I don't remember this being an issue in any of our discussions here, but maybe you're thinking up new things to argue about.
Fact: The best pipeline to the Devs for feedback on the game is through our correspondent, right here on Dancer Board.
Fact: AFK Macroers are just as welcome to send their ideas to Ravenmist as the rest of us are. The Devs are just as free to dismiss bad ideas (from any of us).
Fact:Most AFK Macroers don't give enough of a crap to even read the boards, much less post, so they have no idea how the rest of us feel about what they're doing. Their pattern of interaction in the game is carried over in their interactions out of game - they're non-existent. No interaction equals no say in how we go abouteliminating their chosen method of "playing" (using the term loosely).
Third by even acknowledging being an afker puts you under attack by a selected group who have appointed themselves representative of everyone, why even bother posting and getting involved with such drama.
Nobody appointed anybody (except for Ravenmist, who was appointed by SOE). You're seeing opinions, which seems to be something you're ok with having but have a hard time accepting that your opinion is in the minority.
I am sure that afk entertainers have devasted the gameplay of so many players that it warrants an immediate patch to stop such a travesty but for as long as it is allowed, any afkers will be welcome in my group when I perform. I never knew it was a competition to keep the master class elite from the riftraft.
I guess when your arguments are wearing thin, the best thing to do is invent a position for the opposition that's easier to knock down. None of us here feel that way - NONE. All we want is for unattended gameplay to be eliminated so that when someone sees our Master titles over our heads (which we earned by actually playing the game), they consider it worthy of respect and value what we can do for the game (and for them). As it is now, there are so many Macro Masters running around that I've stopped wearing my title and opt for "Teras Kasi Novice". It makes me angry to no end to realize that other people have done things that make me ashamed of one of my best accomplishments in SWG. And I want that to change.
Imyself registered for swg just to have fun, and if someone else wants to get through the monotony of the classthat is the least finaciallyrewarding (with some exceptions) just so they can be master and have fun with all the music or all the dances, then more power to them.
What I said was that in 99% of the cases forum moderators are volunteers doing it for free and as such they have absolutely no authority to tell people what they can and cannot do when it comes to official support questions or official policies and I went on to say that in Sony's case that is not so and that they should announce it somewhere so we know that forum moderators here speak for Sony.
And I called you a L337 scriptkiddy because 99.9% of people saying "You got owned" are exactly that, or ignorant, but i give you benefit of the doubt so you are the former, I think/hope.
And what Jaessa is basically doing here is telling everyone that it is OK that everyone can play this game unattended for indefinate periods of time, which is in direct contradiction to what this whole discussion is about. That one single line in the EULA...
You know why there's only one line devoted to it, right ?
No ? Let me explain in simple terms:
The EULA is designed to cover Sony's liability, for example they covered that you cannot sell your credits on Ebay for real cash, they also covered most of the other things, like sexual harrassment and macroing.
These are thought up by very clever people who are paid about 100 times what I get paid and they should be too, they think up all these legal documents and they are not thought up to just be neglected or refuted by a Sony employee, they are there for a reason, anyone with 1 year of business law school knows why they are there.
What Jeassa is saying here might just as well be a CSR saying oh if you find a duplication exploit then you are free to use it, it may be in the legal document that you agree to abide by everytime you startup the game but just go ahead and dupe that master armor or grab another million credits from that exploit, go right ahead, I don't mind if you use the exploit.
There's only 1 line devoted to the specific piece of macroíng because it is allready a very long document but it still covers everything, even this topic.
I hope I spelled it out clear enough, I hope my use of english makes sense because I am NOT a native english speaker so if it's not clear then please forgive my being born in the Netherlands.
I'm glad to hear what Q said though, maybe this whole log in / start macro / turn off monitor thing will be resolved soon.
I still don't see how a Sony employee directly contradicting their legal documents is the same as me getting owned, maybe someday I will although I very much doubt it.
I hope I spelled it out clear enough, I hope my use of english makes sense because I am NOT a native english speaker so if it's not clear then please forgive my being born in the Netherlands.
yeah, ok i was out of line.
and i understand the eula line perfectly apparently. irresponsible or not... wether you like it or not... they've taken an official stance. third party programs = busted, in game macro = ok. debate all you want about the motives of this decision, but it's still there and i don't think jeassa just went off half cocked and made this stuff up. i'm sure her response was discussed. rip on their decisions and the thread will just be locked like the plethora of others on this topic.
I normally don't post on the boards, but I felt inclined to post about this topic.
I am a Master Dancer, proud to say that I learned my profession by doing every flourish, and acknowledging all who entered the cantina.
Now, regardless of whether you afk'ed your way to the top or not, the wording on that EULA statement says that macros are not allowed period (extended gameplay away from the computer). I think that is all many here were wishing to get clarified, andrightly so. There is no reason to get rude and say someone was 'owned' just because you think macros are okay to use or whatever your reason behind saying it is. We are all members of the dancing community and there are real people behind the screen, and thus should be treated with some semblence of respect.
That being said, I don't like the idea of using macros to afk my way to the top of anything. I think the reason that many here feel so strongly about it is because we invest time into playing a game, and log on to be treated with such disregard and contempt by many in the SWG community.
Those of you who come here and tell us not to get "upset over this and step out into the world and basically get a life" (yes I am paraphrasing the poster who suggested we step outside into the sun) please don't. That would be tantamount to me going to the boards and saying that anyone whining about class balancing needs to get over themselves and concentrate on something important.
I know many people who have used macros to become a master dancer. Do I think they are bad people? No. Are many my friends? Yes. Will I group with them? No. I just think it is hurting the way people see dancers in the long run, just as those dancers who seem to wish to portray themselves as cyber prostitutes (for lack of a better term) are hurting our standing in the SWG community.
When I was discussing this issue with my fiance last night he actually said, "well, its because you have chosen an 'easy' class to master is why....not many people view it the same as they do to mastering another profession since its so 'easy' to be a dancer". I then asked "so what you are saying to me is its much harder to blast at a tiny animal repeatedly to get xp and should be treated with respect then?" I reminded him of how easily I went up in my carbine skill by hunting alone and killing little squalls with no danger of getting killed. Hmmmm...I am still hitting a key repeatedly, but I am alone and don't have to interact with others. Yes, I can see where that would be considerably more "important" in the eyes of the SWG community.
I bring up my own personal experience to point out that even someone who thinks my little Lady is wonderful in all that she does and knows how hard I have worked to make her the best dancer I can, views my profession in this way. 
The only reason I can see is because of the AFK bot.....because as of now, an automated person can do what I can do with no interaction, nothing on their part. I think that view is what is spilling over on all of us in the dancing community, and sorry, but I don't deserve that.
So if you think I am attacking you because of using an afk macro that you may usefor hours on end, no I am not. I am just trying to get you all to see what so many others here have eloquently stated. Your actions are making it difficult for those of us who don't do that. Yes, you have the right to play your game the way you wish, but that means others have the right to play the way they wish as well (i.e. not grouping with you). Just try and remember that your actions are not only making a name for yourself. Sadly they are making a name for the whole dancing community.
~Oqua Alsan~
~Master Dancer, Master Tailor, Novice Carbine~
~Tarquinas~
Now, regardless of whether you afk'ed your way to the top or not, the wording on that EULA statement says that macros are not allowed period (extended gameplay away from the computer). I think that is all many here were wishing to get clarified, andrightly so. There is no reason to get rude and say someone was 'owned' just because you think macros are okay to use or whatever your reason behind saying it is. We are all members of the dancing community and there are real people behind the screen, and thus should be treated with some semblence of respect.
right, like the respect from her when she said jeanna was just a forum moderator and what she said did not mean anything? the 'owned' was in response to jeanna who replied to that and said, in fact that her response does mean something. it was more sarcastic and meant to be humerous than anything else.
yes, Miss...I didn't think she meant it to be rude or as a slight to that SOE person. No one else took it as that but you. Perhaps I am wrong, again, its my interpretation.
Just because someone is speaking out against AFK macros, I don't automatically think them polite or correct at all times. If someone is going to be rude I will call them out about it. Sorry if I didn't take it as a slight as you did. Just as I didn't take your comment as being anything humerous. I just asked for civility and respect towards one another. I think I treated you with such, even though you and I probably don't agree with much. *smile*
~ Oqua Alsan ~