Dancer Archive
Thread: Make dancers like Politicians...
captainme wrote:
(Theyonly claimedit was a social profession to ease the tension. Entertainer was never really a social profession, it was a support profession. However, that's been taken away)
I understand the claim, but I personally was never successful making this claim for support, healer, or anything else as a part of Dancer and as justification for the requests I passed on during my term. It's not like I didn't try, they just always said no. As far as I know, they always told all the other Ent corrs no on this claim too.
That's what I'm saying I don't think you get. Now, if you are saying you don't care what the Devs say, you personally feel like we should have been considered support - that's fine, plenty of people feel that way. That's never a design any Dev has admitted to though and in fact it was actively shot down over and over again - preCU and postCU.
I personally feel like any amount of function or activity could be added to Dancer and the other Ent profs and they would still be "Social" professions because the very nature of changing avs' looks, dance animations, playing songs and instruments, light show fx, and props all serve a Social Goal no matter what else you attach to them or stick in the boxes where they are granted.
I am balking at the idea that the Devs supported this claim before the CU and then did a fast switch post CU "stripping" us of our worth. I'm not meaning to be cross with you, I just think you have confused Dev intended design with player perception. It would be wonderful if they were always the same, but in this case, it has been painfully clear for a very long time that has not been so.
Panthu wrote:
captainme wrote:
(Theyonly claimedit was a social profession to ease the tension. Entertainer was never really a social profession, it was a support profession. However, that's been taken away)
What I meant by this, is that the devs called entertainer a social profession only to justify the things they did to it. However, everyone knew there was more to it than that. There was healing and buffing. May not have been the major focus of entertainer, but the role was there and was only denied by SOE.
I understand the claim, but I personally was never successful making this claim for support, healer, or anything else as a part of Dancer and as justification for the requests I passed on during my term. It's not like I didn't try, they just always said no. As far as I know, they always told all the other Ent corrs no on this claim too.
That's what I'm saying I don't think you get. Now, if you are saying you don't care what the Devs say, you personally feel like we should have been considered support - that's fine, plenty of people feel that way. That's never a design any Dev has admitted to though and in fact it was actively shot down over and over again - preCU and postCU.
I personally feel like any amount of function or activity could be added to Dancer and the other Ent profs and they would still be "Social" professions because the very nature of changing avs' looks, dance animations, playing songs and instruments, light show fx, and props all serve a Social Goal no matter what else you attach to them or stick in the boxes where they are granted.
I am balking at the idea that the Devs supported this claim before the CU and then did a fast switch post CU "stripping" us of our worth. I'm not meaning to be cross with you, I just think you have confused Dev intended design with player perception. It would be wonderful if they were always the same, but in this case, it has been painfully clear for a very long time that has not been so.
Message Edited by captainme on 09-11-2005 11:58 AM
captainme wrote:
I love being an entertainer, I just don't like being useless.
Message Edited by captainme on 09-11-2005 11:58 AM
Excuse me? As an avid ID, I really don't think I'm "useless" just because I can't perform stat migrates--which didn't make sense for IDs to have in the first place.
How many avatars do you see running around that look exactly as they did at creation? Saying IDs--or even entertainers in general--are useless because they don't offer a "forced" or "required" service is like saying tailors are useless because you don't have to buy their clothes unless you want to. How many avatars do you see running around wearing the newbie outfits? I'd say right about zero.
If the services are available, people will still use them--thus, no matter what they do to us, entertainers will never be useless.
Metricula wrote:
captainme wrote:
I love being an entertainer, I just don't like being useless.
Message Edited by captainme on 09-11-2005 11:58 AM
Excuse me? As an avid ID, I really don't think I'm "useless" just because I can't perform stat migrates--which didn't make sense for IDs to have in the first place.
How many avatars do you see running around that look exactly as they did at creation? Saying IDs--or even entertainers in general--are useless because they don't offer a "forced" or "required" service is like saying tailors are useless because you don't have to buy their clothes unless you want to. How many avatars do you see running around wearing the newbie outfits? I'd say right about zero.
If the services are available, people will still use them--thus, no matter what they do to us, entertainers will never be useless.
To the rest of the community, we are pretty much useless. The only major role we play is individuality of avatars. If we had more purpose, then why did they allow buffbots? Why would they take away stat migration shortly after giving it to us? Tailors were given a better role insupport of combat and still have it to this day. How many people do you see wearing the same types of clothes? I see a lot, the only difference is color. It's not because there's a mass craze for the look, but because the stats they can get on those clothes help them with combat. Like it or not, everything revolves around the combat. We are a mere novelty. We server no purpose to those that participate in combat. And if you think about it that way, you will see we are truly useless. We are the only social profession in-game. So, to get back on track with this thread, if we are truly a social profession, why shouldn't it be ok for everyone to have at no SP cost? It takes away nothing from the game, from what I can see. A lot would agree that it actually adds to it.
It seems you are not looking at what I say and taking the time to think about it. I know what you are saying, to us as the entertainer community, we are not useless. However, when it comes to the people that matter(the devs), we are a spare time project. If you feel I am attacking my own profession, you couldn't be farther away from understanding what I say. I would happily welcome change that gets the well-deserved attention from the devsthat we have patiently waited for for so long. However, I see the situation we are in now and understand that unless we play a bigger part, we will almost always be left out of the major updates.
Metricula wrote:
captainme wrote:
To the rest of the community, we are pretty much useless. The only major role we play is individuality of avatars. If we had more purpose, then why did they allow buffbots? Why would they take away stat migration shortly after giving it to us? Tailors were given a better role insupport of combat and still have it to this day. How many people do you see wearing the same types of clothes? I see a lot, the only difference is color. It's not because there's a mass craze for the look, but because the stats they can get on those clothes help them with combat. Like it or not, everything revolves around the combat. We are a mere novelty. We server no purpose to those that participate in combat. And if you think about it that way, you will see we are truly useless. We are the only social profession in-game. So, to get back on track with this thread, if we are truly a social profession, why shouldn't it be ok for everyone to have at no SP cost? It takes away nothing from the game, from what I can see. A lot would agree that it actually adds to it.
Fine. I get steady work as an ID.
And any profession can be social if you play it that way. Entertainers are not just a social class(Never said we were a social class always said social profession, read more carefully). We are a social profession. Profession, to me, indicates that we made a choice to use our time and effort (skill points) in thismanner, just like any other profession. Why don't we remove skill pointsfor artisan, too? They aren't a combat class.(They maynot be a combat class, but they have a major role in the game. Without them, the combat system would notfunction.They make the weapons, armor,foods, droids, and such that combatprofessions rely on.)They don'tneed to spend time "learning" how to craft items.
I do feel that SOE supports buffbotting. Why else would they leave the combat/faction buff as a passive mechanic?
Skill point questions aside, I don't feel the entertainer classes are useless. I don't understand why you hate entertainers so much that you see no value in us(I don't hate entertainers, since I am one myself. I have a lot of discontent towards the devs for lack of attention for our professions. This is due to the fact that we don't have any effect on their favorite system, the combat system.). Are you saying my entire playstlye is invalid, even though I make a steady living from it and enjoy it?(No, your playstyle is valid, just overlooked. You confuse me for some troll thinking I know about a profession I don't play, but you'd be wrong. 1 1/2 years of entertainer and 8 months of combat on this character. Not to mention the 1 1/2 years of my artisan on another server. Combat and artisan are the high priority professions and entertainer is seemingly so insignificant that we can't even play our part anymore.)
I was pretty neutral toward stat migrates.(Stat migration gave the ID a role in thesystem, albeit a forcednecessity if you wanted to be at least up to par in combat, but still therewas a major role.)I felt as though it was a random mechanic sort of shoved on the IDs. I didn't mind conferring them, but I got a lot more rudeness then. Now, people come to me when they want me, to spend time with me and use my services--not when they grudgingly feel they "need" me.
At any rate, I'm still confused as to how entertainers are so utterly useless that we don't deserve to be a viable profession anymore.(This has been shown to us many times by the devs. Not by what they've said, but by what they've done to us and not done for us.)
And what's wrong with being a novelty? What's wrong with not involving ourselves in combat? I don't want to be involved in combat if I don't want to be. I don't mind conferring buffs--but I wouldn't care if they were gone and all I did was dance for those who would watch. There will always be people who watch entertainers.(There will always be people that watch us, yes. However, when something doesn't function right, we'll be placed on the backburner until they see fit to change it. In other words, when the combat issues are looked into and fixed.)
So are you saying all entertainer classes--Entertainer, ID, Musician, and Dancer--go zero-skill point? (This will be a simple, yes.)
Nena, I have two things to say that I hope you'll consider - then I'm out of this particular debate. 
1. We have gotten increased attention. We have had our issue lists worked on. We do have at least one Devthat has taken an interest in our playstyle and tried to improve it. It's not fair to act like we are in the same state we were in last year when none of our issues would be considered because we weren't anywhere on the priority list.
2. Why do you personally insist that we should be tied to combat if you are primarily a social player? I have always been open to a combat tie, so I don't take issue with it like many in here do. Still though, I just want gameplay. I'd actually prefer Social/non-Combat Game styled content which would make the most sense for Entertainers, but I will take combat gameplay in it's absence. Why would you want combat gameplay through a Social profession over Social gameplay? That makes no sense.
Panthu wrote:
Nena, I have two things to say that I hope you'll consider - then I'm out of this particular debate.
1. We have gotten increased attention. We have had our issue lists worked on. We do have at least one Devthat has taken an interest in our playstyle and tried to improve it. It's not fair to act like we are in the same state we were in last year when none of our issues would be considered because we weren't anywhere on the priority list. (This is a relief to know that at least one is looking at what we want/need to make our gameplay better for us. I have seen changes since coming back to entertainer, but I have also seen a less important role for entertainers.)
2. Why do you personally insist that we should be tied to combat if you are primarily a social player? I have always been open to a combat tie, so I don't take issue with it like many in here do. Still though, I just want gameplay. I'd actually prefer Social/non-Combat Game styled content which would make the most sense for Entertainers, but I will take combat gameplay in it's absence. Why would you want combat gameplay through a Social profession over Social gameplay? That makes no sense. (Again you misunderstand my meaning. I am not saying I want a combat role. What I want out of our profession is more involvement in the main part of the system as a support profession and not just a social profession. I'm not sure if anybody else that has done combat as well agrees with me, but after having done all aspects of this game, I see that interdependency shows up somewhere in just about every profession. Why should entertainers be left out of the interdependency loop? Why should we be the "cheerleaders" of SWG? I guess I'd better explain what I mean by chearleaders. Not just something to look at, but a purpose other than flare. It's frustrating to see all other professions play a role that benefits the community as a whole while we are just the downtime visual/musical time filler.)
Cantinas are still empty, entertainers are still just there to please themselves.
There comes a point when entertaining yourself becomes kind of dull, chatting to the other ents in the cantinas youll hear the same. People come for a buff ask pay leave usually minimal talk if any, the old BF system was a timesink but that timesink was necessary to give the ents a chance to entertain people not just heal them or buff them.
The pace of SWG has been sped up alot since the old days, instant travel, no buffs required, fast speeders, vendor search, and ents have fallen by the wayside because combat wants to fight straight away not wait for buffs or to be healed. Youll notice wounds too have basically dissappeared, its not often you see someone with a black bar anymore.
I dont necessarily want complete sp removal for Ent professions id not be against it but id rather they looked ALOT more closely at the role of entertainers. Ents were a new thing in SWG and id say it was worthwhile but because SWG now is like other MMO's the experiment has lost its purpose, the social side of SWG has been lost along the way to improving the combat side.
captainme wrote:
To the rest of the community, we are pretty much useless. The only major role we play is individuality of avatars. If we had more purpose, then why did they allow buffbots? Why would they take away stat migration shortly after giving it to us? Tailors were given a better role insupport of combat and still have it to this day. How many people do you see wearing the same types of clothes? I see a lot, the only difference is color. It's not because there's a mass craze for the look, but because the stats they can get on those clothes help them with combat. Like it or not, everything revolves around the combat. We are a mere novelty. We server no purpose to those that participate in combat. And if you think about it that way, you will see we are truly useless. We are the only social profession in-game. So, to get back on track with this thread, if we are truly a social profession, why shouldn't it be ok for everyone to have at no SP cost? It takes away nothing from the game, from what I can see. A lot would agree that it actually adds to it.
Everyone knows how to dance, some badly some well. The skillpoints invested should reflect that. Same way any twit with a gun can pull a trigger, but to actually hit something other than yourself you need some level of skill.Obviously it would be fun for everyone to dance and the solution to that is to allow entertainers to "buff" others to dance a dance or two for a period of time. That would be something for entertainers to do.
It would support the idea of entertainment.
ID is a very viable profession that should not be zero'ed.