Dancer Archive
Thread: Do you think it's fair to spend 400k xp out of 900k xp when you could be getting FS xp from it?
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Warryyr
Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:21 am
#40
ElayneDancer wrote:
Warryyr,
I fully agree with you that I'll be earning dancer experience anyways and could convert it, which is why I said I might possibly take some FS slots as a lark.
However, I intend to do this casually. I might dance alittle. I'll perform mind buffs for my friends. I'll definetely chat with people and socialize. But I'm not going to max my action pool, start dancing, go AFK, come back, restart dancing, etc., ad nauseum. I refuse to. I'd like to think that my game has evolved well beyond that. Therefore, I'd be very, very surprised if I earned more than 50k dance experience a day, which means it'll take me roughly 18 days to cap and convert, which would translate into months before I finish force sensitive.
To me and for my playstayle, that's fully acceptable. However, to most people who are "serious" Jedi hopefuls, the idea of taking 6 months to get Jedi would be practically an insult.
Basically, I see no reason why I shouldn't spend 400K on a new dance, seeing as I'm going to get more use out of that then say Persuasion or Luck (yah, I know, they're the "noob" lines, but those are the ones I want for IC purposes).
You're also complaining that other professions aren't having to pay for new content with XP points. Well, think about it like this. If tomorrow, Sony was to say "BTW, there is a now an Unarmed Hit 4. But it'll cost ya 400K to get it, TKM." Would you consider that to be unfair?
What would make sense to you as to what to charge dancers for a new template ability? Credits? That won't work, because it'll raise the arguement that most dancers are low income, especially if they are "only" dancers. Just give it on a quest? Well, then that raises the issue of "The Dancers got Super Dance for free, why should we pay for Unarmed Hit 4?".
A new dance is like opening up a new box on your character. Dance Knowledge V if you would. As I paid experience for Dance Knowledge 1 through 4, and paid experience for every other dance I have, I don't see anything wrong with paying experience for this one.
Well, if TKM's got something called Unarmed Hit 4, at a cost of xp, then the argument would be that TKM's and Entertainers are the only professions getting charged xp for new content. Would it insinuate the beginning of a new system of cashing in xp for post-Master content? Yes. Would it be fair to TKM's or Entertainers alone, who have to pay this cost? No. Not with the current Jedi system. Besides, if TKM's got some called Unarmed Hit 4, it would go in the Master TKM box. Without a doubt.
I think it should just be given from the quest, after the quest is complete. There's no inequity with "Dancers got Super Dance for free, why should we pay for Unarmed Hit 4?" because Unarmed Hit 4 doesn't exist. In fact, no other profession in this game has EVER had to pay xp for new content. Ever.
As to essentially gaining a new knowledge box, like Knowledge 5 - well I can see that perspective. But, technically, this new dance is only a certification. Do we actually gain a Knowledge 5 box for our 400k xp? No. We just learn something new. New weapons certifications have been put into the game many times. With no need for combat folks to spend xp to learn how to use it. Essentially, they learned a level 5 box with a new weapon certification in it. But the certification was put somewhere in their existing skillboxes. What do we get? You got it, nothing. We don't see that new dance anywhere in our skills, do we? We have no idea where it fits in. There was no definitive effort by the Devs to categorize this new dance and song.
A carbineer knows that once they obtain Nym's Slugthrower from the Nym's themepark, they need to reach a certain skill box to use the carbine - to gain the certification. Straightforward and simple.
Our quests - not so much.
We're never told outright what level of Musician/Dancer we must be to take our quest. But, sure enough it's Novice Dancer or Musician. So, once we gain our reward, where does this reward fit into our skills? Gee whiz, it doesn't. Heck it doesn't even appear on our skill sheets!
Is this post-Master content? Then why can Novice Musicians and Dancers do it?
Is this incentive to go further in the profession? Then where's the thrill for Masters? Why do Masters' xp banks get robbed, depriving some of Force Sensitive xp?
This whole quest was horribly slapped together, from what I've seen. Very little thought was put into how this fits into a current Entertainer's skillset.
And no Dev interaction in the Feedback thread makes me want to puke.
Oqua
Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:34 pm
#41
The only schematics I am familiar with are the ones I use while tailoring (theme park rewards).
Maybe its just me, but I think if we are doing the quest and all the requirements of it to get the dance, then what is the reasoning behind it costing us xp on top of everything?
I assume we have to do things for the new dance/song yes? Not just show up with 400K xp and get it right?
Well....
Considering I don't have to lose any tailoring xp when I "learn a new schematic" (which is what it says each time I use one of the tailoring scrolls), why would it make sense for me to lose dance/music xp to learn a dance I quested for to begin with?
I don't know...maybe its me...but if they are thinking along this line, thenwhy don't I lose xp when I "learn" a new tailoring schematic. At leastmake it the same across the board....this way seems so out of the blue and makes no sense as to "why" they would do it this way.
But what do I know, huh? I am just a dancer. 
Seclus
Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:53 pm
#42
Paying XP for a new dance or song is not improving this profession. With all the schmetics for the other professions around the comunity I don't remember artasins needing to drop 400k xp to learn the av-21 schmetic I don't recall Architects needing 400k xp to learning a painting schmetic, I can can go on with armor smiths and weapon smiths as well. I find my danceing new content at an unreasonable price at an unreasonable time. We have multipules of broken dances and lack of unique flourishes in our profession. No content or help other then providing a service without garuntee of pay untill mindbuffs were added giving us the ability to sell our performances to the power gamers who have all the in game money. I feel let down in my master profession since I am not a useful part of an going community when my professions only selling item can be bought in the form of brandy. I really want new dances I want them to work and not be simalr copies of my pervious dances that are broken or lack in visual grace and fluitity. I do not think as master entertainers dancers or muscains that we are asking much for the removal of the xp cost. I think a new song for mucians is great I think other items like dancing fans, dancing canes, other unique items that a dancer could hold instead of a weapon would have been a far greater reward then a new dance. (specialy if the dance has flaw issues) I am all for the quest I don't care if its the lamest thing in the game but I think the merefact I have a quest for my profession like all the other professions do is awsome. The xp cost is stupid and broken dance reward makes the new content usless and if the dance is a near cut out copy of lyrical or formal why bother as the dances are not pratical in the areas of crowded cantinas we goto I do not like crossing through the bodies of my fellow dancers or dancing in the middle of the table where I seem to end up using the formal or lyrical dances.
basicly I would like the xp cost removed as I see no reason to have one for a visual aid that is not going to attract any busness and be forgoten within a few months.
Esharra
Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:02 am
#43
Are the DPT's playing the good cop/bad cop game? Good to see you back, Deila..was starting to worry that we were losing you.
Xyrdre wrote:
Heyas everyone... I'm poking back around.
My latest full-length novel is now in the Focus thread for the Entertainer Quests, if anyone cares to peruse it. And yes, the DPT's seem pretty united on this XP cost point, though I tried to be a bit more cool-headed in my approach of denouncing it.
Xyrdre
Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:21 am
#44
Nah, I've just been really busy for the past several weekson secret servers that don't exist...and well, sometimes it's a good thing to take a little forum breather.
But, regarding good cop / bad cop... let's just say that the DPT's are ineffable in our methods and ways.
Esharra
Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:27 am
#45
Xyrdre wrote:
Nah, I've just been really busy for the past several weekson secret servers that don't exist...and well, sometimes it's a good thing to take a little forum breather.
But, regarding good cop / bad cop... let's just say that the DPT's are ineffable in our methods and ways.
I agree about the breather..I'm probably due for one myself, seeing how my posts have become shorter and grumpier lately.
I haven't bothered to get over to TC lately (what little extra play time I've had being applied to a server that doesn't exist), but I got the impression from your post in the focus thread that the flos for the new dance don't start and endat the samelocation/position sothat they can be strung together..true? If so, then let's just toss this new dance right out the window! The ability to string the flos is the only saving grace for formal & lyrical.
Xyrdre
Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:23 am
#46
It was really hard to tell, to be honest. Utess was showing me the dance, and with the base being twitchy ice skating again, there was no way for me to really gauge where the flos were triggering spatially.
My comments about them not seeming to go together was more stylistically speaking... whereas stringing Lyrical flos together to avoid the base animation looks like a continuous dance, these new ones... well, didn't. They looked like flos that weren't reallymeant to be done continuously - like they really needed the base dance in between them to join them into a compositional whole. Since I couldn't see the base, I asked Tess if that seemed to be the case - did the flos work when using the base dance as a buffer between them? - and she indicated it was much better that way. Again though... that does no good if no one else can see it.
I dunno... my personal feelings are still along the lines of this. I wouldn't ever spend 400k Pistols XP to get certed to use a pistol that wouldn't fire and did no damage. I'm not aware of the ModifiedRepublic Blasters costing nearly a half-million XP to get certed for, nor did the DE-10. Certainly, the DE-10 came from looted components in a scary-hard dungeon (that really was outside the capabilities of Pistoleers - I know, I tried it before switching out to rifles), but the tradeoff was that it's just a better pistol that does more damage. I don't know the XP gains that come per tick from the new dance, but I'm willing to wager that it doesn't inherently cut down buffing time or increase percentages.
If none of these other things had double requirements, especially fairly steep XP costs to even use, why would I be interested in bothering to do the new content, to spend all that XP that has another outlet (FS quests), to gain a broken dance that doesn't look good toothers, andthat isn't any better functionallythan what we already have?
Any XP cost in this case seems just... out of line. My take.
Rabenschwinge
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:03 am
#47
After all I've read and seen, demanding 400k xp is really asked a bit much. This particular dance, with its bug and the drawbacks that Xyrdre described just isn't worth it. I have seen the dance, I found it nice looking, but there isn't much continuousness in it.
But I do still think its basically a good idea to charge XP for a new dance. The reason is simple: We all gather experience and we all grow in dancing after we mastered it. With this dance those are honored, who are dedicated dnacers, who have been dancing for months at least. Dancing XP, which are supposed to reflect the experience a character has in dancing, may very well demanded for a dance that isn't known all over the galaxy, that is even beyond the school of master. For the quest itself you gain knowledge of the dance. But you need be a truely experienced dancer to actually dance it. That makes sense. And by this point of view it doesn't matter if other classes don't use the mechanism, since it is a good thing.
For those, who don't sacrifice their dancing XP to get closer to Jedi, this will put some worth to their experience which has been absolutely worthless so far; that why I actually think that 400k XP isn't asked too much, you gain it in two months of playing a dancer easily and there is no other worth to it.
Now, knowing the drawbacks of the dance, and with the assumption, that it will never be fixed considering the time that is already known that lyrical and formal are broken, my opinion is, that the cost should be lowered to 100k XP, low enough for even somebody who cannot effort the skill points to go further than novice dancer. Though it hurts to say this, 'cause it means giving up hope the dances will ever be fixed.
What I really don't understand is why the discussion about this is so heated. Yeah, some are grinding for Jedi and trade their XP for that, which puts it to an enormous value. Especially since there seems to be no other way to become Jedi for a pure entertainer as far as I understand. So what? If you don't think, the time you loose in becoming Jedi isn't worth a new dance (what, considering the problems with it, would be a wise decision) don't get it. You can get it after you became Jedi if you want to. Is being Jedi of so few worth that you cannot wait for a dance a few months to you?
But I do still think its basically a good idea to charge XP for a new dance. The reason is simple: We all gather experience and we all grow in dancing after we mastered it. With this dance those are honored, who are dedicated dnacers, who have been dancing for months at least. Dancing XP, which are supposed to reflect the experience a character has in dancing, may very well demanded for a dance that isn't known all over the galaxy, that is even beyond the school of master. For the quest itself you gain knowledge of the dance. But you need be a truely experienced dancer to actually dance it. That makes sense. And by this point of view it doesn't matter if other classes don't use the mechanism, since it is a good thing.
For those, who don't sacrifice their dancing XP to get closer to Jedi, this will put some worth to their experience which has been absolutely worthless so far; that why I actually think that 400k XP isn't asked too much, you gain it in two months of playing a dancer easily and there is no other worth to it.
Now, knowing the drawbacks of the dance, and with the assumption, that it will never be fixed considering the time that is already known that lyrical and formal are broken, my opinion is, that the cost should be lowered to 100k XP, low enough for even somebody who cannot effort the skill points to go further than novice dancer. Though it hurts to say this, 'cause it means giving up hope the dances will ever be fixed.
What I really don't understand is why the discussion about this is so heated. Yeah, some are grinding for Jedi and trade their XP for that, which puts it to an enormous value. Especially since there seems to be no other way to become Jedi for a pure entertainer as far as I understand. So what? If you don't think, the time you loose in becoming Jedi isn't worth a new dance (what, considering the problems with it, would be a wise decision) don't get it. You can get it after you became Jedi if you want to. Is being Jedi of so few worth that you cannot wait for a dance a few months to you?
Aida
Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:59 am
#48
I agree with most of your points Rabenschwinge.
I dont think 400k xp is too much for a new dance at all.
I think that this new dance, broken or not, should be available to those that really want to invest in this skill instead of just dabbling. An alternative to the 400k xp could be to simply set the requirement to master dancer.
kirah_ashlin
Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:45 am
#49
This is the first online game I've ever played, so I haven't any reference to go by as to how other MMP games work. If the quest was more "thought out" I'd be happy to give up something for it. If the dance worked correctly and looked like something I'd like to perform, I'd be happy to surrender something for it.
I respect the opinions of people on both sides of this debate - even though the gap doesn't seem to be getting any closer . . . I know that the musicians are loving the song (not broken and sounds terrific), however we dancers have nothing to look forward to at this point. The ones on TC who got the dance and are unhappy with it had to give up 400K XP for a broken dance (which will be fixed, I am sure).
I did not find the quest fun to do. I found it repetative and unimaginative. Considering the ideas that have been brought up in all three ent forums for new quest/content, I don't really understand why the quest was set as it was. I suppose we should be thankful that it is as short and easy to complete as it is . . . . 
Now, I am no programmer(just ask Roho or Lei about my problems with macros/aliases! 
) so I can't speak to how much time and effort went into creating this quest for us. I could be wrong, butI believe it is the first true profession specific quest created, which is something in and of itself. Sure theTheme Parksare all combat geared, but just about anyone with some combat can do them (grouped with other combat players). Someone came into one of the musician threads (the poll NJ created, I believe) who is a medic and they mentioned they have no medical quests. There are no tailor quests. Even our partners, the IDs have no specific quest. So that the devs created a quest just for dancers and musicians shows that they are listening (even if they don't really "hear" us . . . ).
) so I can't speak to how much time and effort went into creating this quest for us. I could be wrong, butI believe it is the first true profession specific quest created, which is something in and of itself. Sure theTheme Parksare all combat geared, but just about anyone with some combat can do them (grouped with other combat players). Someone came into one of the musician threads (the poll NJ created, I believe) who is a medic and they mentioned they have no medical quests. There are no tailor quests. Even our partners, the IDs have no specific quest. So that the devs created a quest just for dancers and musicians shows that they are listening (even if they don't really "hear" us . . . ).We need to voice our opinions (in constructive ways) andallow our corrs to submit those opinions to the devs. Mine continues to be that I have no plans on doing the quest for this dance, even when it is fixed. Call it a personal preference, but I don't like the "look" of it at all. There are so many dance steps they could have chosen for us (including some fantastic line dance ones), but theflourishes do not go together well (changes from Western line dance style to Formal twirls),take up too much floor space,arefar toolengthyanddo notfit well with the new song - in MHO.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 09-26-2004 08:08 AM
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