Dancer Archive
Thread: Our Dancer Issues for the Devs
nvoigt wrote:
A great list and I agree 100% on most topics. However,
The ability to buff all three mind stats
Would take away the last gameplay mechanic difference between dancers and musicians. I am both and I can offer a unique service: a buff for all three stats from one person. If both professions get both buffs, I don't see why anyone would want to be both except for their own enjoyment. While my own enjoyment is the most important part of the game, I think if we have two classes with the exact same game mechanics, we could as well have a single entertainer class and drop musician and dancer alltogether, so we canhave all the fun and skillpoints left, too. I for one would like to see the elite entertainer classes seperated by game mechanics.
Also, maybe you could clarify that it would be nice if none-dancers get some dances. Maybe formal and basic. Or Formal and Popular. I think most of us would hate it if everyone would be able to dance exotic just like that
as a dancer i feel kind of dupped i can't buff secondaries and only the primary. its just not a very easy to spit three between two professions. often i notice that when i get say, just a quickness buff, i don't ahve to worry about getting action buffed for dancing. i haven't ever seen this done with my mind since i have never had a secondary stat mind buff. but, 'm sure the same thing applies. the higher focus and willpower the less likely one is to lose a single point of mindbar HAM.
i certainly would never want to take away from the musician profession. that would just not be fair or cool to them. as nvoigt here says, master dancer/musician offers a unique enterprise, and if you can afford to keep both without wanting to spent your skillpoints on another profession (eventually i felt i had to get a combat class in to keep myself sane, so i dropped master ID) maybe you should be rewarded (i dont like that word in this case but i am having trouble comingup with something adequet) with being able to buff both.
so, i am not sure whether i am aruging for or against all three stats being buffable by dancers. i certainly want to be able to, but realistically, i dont think it can be done.
'm excited!
Panthu wrote:
Performance enhancements
Most Dancers believe that this is really the heart of the profession: the Show! Whether it’s a large troupe of dancers performing at an event or the solo cantina dancer performing for the lone hunter, this is our main form of interaction with other players. This is how we realize our role in the universe… every dancer wants to put on the best show they can for others’ entertainment as well as our own.
Here are the things we think we need to be able to reach our full potential:
- certified props/costumes/sets
props, costumes, sets. 'm all for it. this also gives other classes that are heavily tied to entertainers (tailors and architects specifically) the ability to join in so we get some cross-profession interaction, more so than before. i am all for things like fans, closed fans, open fans, fans
i am a big fan of the entire culture and history behind the giesha, and anything we entertainers can get to give our avatars half the grace of those beautiful japanese entertainers, i welcome. of course, i'm all for the more risque props as well, and i know that issue has been talked to death, and there have been some nasty scabbling over it in the past, i completely appologize for bringing it. however, if something is there for us, it doesn't mean every single one of us has to use it. those who want to, can. completely a matter of choice. of course, the devs have to be concerned with keeping this a 'teen' rated game (though arguably at the age of eightTEEN we can all go out and buy porn, last time i checked) so it has to be kept somewhat clean.
costumes specific to us, sounds nice. but i wouldn't make only master level dancers able to wear it. i think, but am not sure, but having no crafting skills whatsoever, if i wanted to wear the chef's apron and hat, i probably could. so, i dont think that has the certification. i could be wrong.
i have no idea how a set would work for dancers. i start to think about it andi boggle. i think of sets as if in play sets, and i have seen some really fancy sets before that are entire houses. i mean, how would we pack up and carry awaythe sets used on say, the tv show 'friends?' i think the sets addition would come in the form of furniture and decorationscrafted by architects. would be nice for the devs to add in more than just the current art objects and paintings. more STUFF. we love stuff
) lived-inlook, the better.
this stuff gives dancers, tailors and architects love. really, i think the architects need more love, too and tailors
- /group [start, stop, changedance, colorlights]
agreed. simple as that
- /segue [forward, back, left, right] [number]
love it, love it. i would love to be able to suddenly go back, forward, to the side and add some depth to my dance, but i think i would want a certain animation for it, like a graceful little hop, skip, dance, jump forward, back, left, right etc. also, i would think this would not be able to be done in the middle of a flourish. it would have to wait until the flourish is done to do it. also, the number system for how many steps forward is a good idea as well. ^_^
- /mirror | /fall
mirror? as if immitate another dancer to your side, front or back to do things in the opposite direction, but do the same flourish? hey, sounds cool. ^_^ fall? falling... no, no, don't like the falling over.
Leveling process
Dancers are craving interaction with their leveling process. They would like to see some kind of performance based increase in XP for some activities that could be worked into our current system. These are some of the things that have been suggested as a way to make the process more hands on:
- puzzles
- dance games
- crafting
- "spy" missions
i'm not all that concerned about changing the leveling process. granted, i didn't macro my way through it, i spent months dancing properly, never macroing overnight to get through it. so, it would just put a cramp in the style of those who did it my way and be a small inconveniece for the afk macroers and grinders. same idea why we can alt-tab out of the game. BIG inconvenience to multitaskers, small inconvenience to hackers that they can easily get around.
Also, our healing XP gain potential is in practice greatly out balanced with our dancing XP. We would like to see this lowered for an improved unbiased leveling experience.
fair enough ^_^ i was kind of shocked to walk into a static cantina and see so many people not getting healing exp. i had no problem back in the day at the beginning of launch with this, but so many things have changed.
Buff System
We need:
- An application monitor displaying both amount and duration dynamically. It does not have to be a real time sync with the player being buffed, but we do need some solid indication of what is being effected by our actions.
- The ability to buff ourselves
- A more interactive process. Perhaps pop-up messages calling for dance routine changes
- A legit speed buffing option
- The ability to buff all three mind stats
Other suggestions: Increase full duration to three hours, have buff set and activate with /setperform and /endperform rather than the person receiving the buff use /watch and /stopwatch
/endperform i like. a little timer to tell us when the user should be buffed is a good idea too ^_^ just in case we mis-count he minutes. i suppose that's just pure laziness on my part and i should be more careful.
Fix the lyrical/formal base dance
(old issue)The flourishes with these dances are very nice. We would like to see these base dances fixed so that we can use them with out a work around of straight flourishing. They are still broken animations.
yes please!
Alternate Income
More and more often dancers are finding it hard to meet the financial demands of their PC Cantinas, wardrobe, travel costs, and other various class associated expenses.
Suggestions:
- crafting “Performance/Show” items (props, costume enhancements, set and stage items)
love it, love it, but not for costumes or sets. only props and during performance-only items for us dancers. i want to give tailors and the architects some love ^_^
- "holo recordings" of performances to sell (decorative or healing/buffing items)
as a decorative item, maybe,not as for something to heal or buff. then we would never see a face in a cantina, least i would fear.
- undercover informant "spy" missions
i like it.
- mission cumulative bonus for individual skill level and groupmates
- combat support features
- cantina salary (another spin on this idea is an option to have gambling machines in PC cantinas where the “house” could make a profit)
sounds like a good idea for player cantinas. craft a gambling machine, all money lost automatically goes into the cantina maintainance.
Who is watching me?
Need a system message when /watched and a "whois" /listwatch command that lists all players currently watching.
Also suggested: /listwatch wounded and /listwatch fatigued – we can’t use /diag while dancing and it would help us know when it was safe to stop dancing with out ruining immersion.
i like the idea to get a list of whois watching.
Dancing Experience Modifier
Base XP earned on the Dance Knowledge skill bonus instead of the dance performed
Denial of Service Enhancements
Passive healing creates some unique problems for factioned, guilded, or griefed Dancers. We need some way to control who will be allowed to receive this service. The current system allows the patron an excessive amount of control over Dance healing and the Dancer very little.
/denyService faction:[Rebel|Imperial] and /denyService guild:[NAME]
Also suggested: A toggle to /denyall with a Dancer Friends list, /denygroup, a Deny interface with editable fields and dropdown boxes
put it in the game as is suggested here. i like this idea. i dont know how much abuse could come from it though.
Falling
We need no hindrance in our ability to perform. Falls ruin choreographed routines at events and large shows. In cantina performances, dancers are often embarrassed and teased for falling. This is too high of a cost for a failure mechanic and is simply not fun for the majority of the community.
- Some dancers do however see falls as a roleplaying opportunity and would like to have the ability to stage a fall.
- Allow non-entertainers to do Dancer dances, but give them the fall rolls and no healing modifiers. There are many RP situations were it would be nice to have the patrons be able to dance. The falls could become the visible distinction between a trained and untrained dancer, while healing/buffing would remain the mechanical difference.
i took up dancing originally so i could dance. i like the /dance emote for non-dancers, put perhapsif this were to have any potential,make a kind of /dance 1 /dance 2 (asilly dance, a fun dance, a more formal dance)
- Make a /fall [on/off] command like the current /bandflo [on/off] command. Then the dancer could decide if they thought this was a fun part of their dancing gameplay.
Notes: Musicians have no failure mechanic, the large majority of the community skips the falls entirely by equipping one of the various weapons that eliminate falls – they would rather look silly with a weapon equipped than fall!
i dispise the falling. especially at master level.
Correct and Expand Cantina Registration
- Tie the registration option to all BF entertainer healing zones (including all small cantinas and remote Out Posts)
- Graphical indicator outside cantina (like a lit marquee sign)
- Empty PC cantinas currently default to manned at server reset
Faction Points
For Dancing while overt and/or healing overts
sure
Collision Detection
On all Cantina Furniture
again, sure, but i dont want to be stopped when i am dancing and have to go back and start dancing again. maybe make it so you can't get within 3 steps of a piece of furniture while dancing only, so it only applies to dancing.
Technique Abilities
Need to give XP bonus/reduced action cost
We're very excited about our new dances and "social dungeon"! Thank you!
Message Edited by Panthu on 04-13-2004 07:11 PM
The bug that doesnt allow you to get both Musician and Dancer buffs at the same time is the biggest issue facing entertainers right now.
It takes 20 minutes to buff up a group now. (Kinda funny if you think about it. They took out a five minute wait on the shuttle, and added a 10 minute wait for buffing)
I agree....Keep them seperate..you changed almost ALL combat classes to prevent dabbling..keep these independant please on buffs. Dancer = Mind Musician = Lower 2
Thank You
Glenda
The start Stop band thing is the most aggrivating thing in game....
but we must remember that it is usually AFK people that complain about this.
I like the idea of crafted items and having to be at the keys to make more xp...afk xp bites...
your suggestion of Spy Missions are good but if they pay like artisan missions I will pass...
I do not think dancers should buff themselves..blue owns in pvp..it is the weak stat....CMs cannot heal their mind bar..same should go for buffing.
Falling at master is dumb..only way I can put it.
Keep faction points out of it..I am already drooling on the exploits for faction point mining with poision and a guild afk....nuff said
Need to give XP bonus/reduced action cost...no way...2 BE fizzes and you do not use any action..if anything you need to increase action costs so as to not stagnate the demand for BE food and the economy.
I like all the messages and such you are suggesting.
I would just caution you on the faction point thing....that should be a smuggler skill only...free faction when covert healing overts is too bif of an exploitable item in remote cities. Thank you for listening
love
Glenda
Fobik wrote:
The start Stop band thing is the most aggrivating thing in game....
but we must remember that it is usually AFK people that complain about this.
...
Falling at master is dumb..only way I can put it.
Message Edited by Anjh on 05-20-2004 10:27 AM
Anjh wrote:
Fobik wrote:
The start Stop band thing is the most aggrivating thing in game....
but we must remember that it is usually AFK people that complain about this.
...
Falling at master is dumb..only way I can put it.
I disagree that it's AFK-ers complaining about this:band performers complain about the stop delay because musicians can no longer switch instruments during a song.
But I strongly agree that falling at master is dumb. Some say it adds realism, but honestly when is the last time you went to see a professional (master) dancer and they fell? And I mean even once, let alone 3 or 4 times during a show. Falling onstage is a once-in-a-career thing in real life, it is not 'realistic' that master dancers fall, nor is it realistic that when they fall they take two stanzas of brushing off their knees and recovering their balance before they're back in the act.
Message Edited by Anjh on 05-20-2004 10:27 AM
I agree Anjh. I think that they shouldn't take masters falling out completely, because even the most professional dancers miss a step or two BUT like you said it's a very rare occurance. I think masters should fall once every like 8,000 flourishes and they should not have that silly knee rubbing emote.
Also, I think that if master dancers are going to make mistakes, then master musicians should as well. It's not fair that we never miss a note, or drop the instrument, etc.
Master dacners falling 3 or 4 times per show, is ridiculous. Sometimes we even have two falls in a row.
Also would like to say the solution to the buffs is not to combine the buff system with musician but to actually split the total buff level with chefs. Right now with semi-decent food (brandy and canape) you can continually buff with food with no downtime so as to not use mind for your specials unlees it is an extreme rifleman attack. Go try it..3 canape and 2 brandy. Now tell me why we are having problems. The split of buff of blue between chef and musician and dance is unbalanced. Overall the ammount of buff you can have in blue is outrageous. Fully buffed with dance master and music master +25 attachments and fully buffed with 2 brandy and 3 canape places one into the 4-5k range in all blue stats....... Nuff said.
Total balance issue here in the game mechanics. Without food the dance and music buffs were balanced. With food there is little to no reason for both buffs...unless you are hard core PVP (Which from all other posts I read are less than .1% of the people who play)
The crap of it is that even with all my mind stats maxed at 4kish a mind DOT posion still eats me.
BALANCE PLEASE>
Love
Glenda
Oh oh the ones higlighted and what not I totally agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you know what I mean! oh yeah!
Panthu wrote:
Performance enhancements
Most Dancers believe that this is really the heart of the profession: the Show! Whether it’s a large troupe of dancers performing at an event or the solo cantina dancer performing for the lone hunter, this is our main form of interaction with other players. This is how we realize our role in the universe… every dancer wants to put on the best show they can for others’ entertainment as well as our own.
Here are the things we think we need to be able to reach our full potential:
- certified props/costumes/sets
- /group [start, stop, changedance, colorlights]
- /segue [forward, back, left, right] [number]
- /mirror | /fall
Leveling process
Dancers are craving interaction with their leveling process. They would like to see some kind of performance based increase in XP for some activities that could be worked into our current system. These are some of the things that have been suggested as a way to make the process more hands on:
- puzzles
- dance games
- crafting
- "spy" missions
Also, our healing XP gain potential is in practice greatly out balanced with our dancing XP. We would like to see this lowered for an improved unbiased leveling experience.
Buff System
We need:
- An application monitor displaying both amount and duration dynamically. It does not have to be a real time sync with the player being buffed, but we do need some solid indication of what is being effected by our actions.
- The ability to buff ourselves
- A more interactive process. Perhaps pop-up messages calling for dance routine changes
- A legit speed buffing option
- The ability to buff all three mind stats WHY TAKE AWAY FROM MUSICIANS?????
Other suggestions: Increase full duration to three hours, have buff set and activate with /setperform and /endperform rather than the person receiving the buff use /watch and /stopwatch
Fix the lyrical/formal base dance
(old issue)The flourishes with these dances are very nice. We would like to see these base dances fixed so that we can use them with out a work around of straight flourishing. They are still broken animations.
Alternate Income
Suggestions:
More and more often dancers are finding it hard to meet the financial demands of their PC Cantinas, wardrobe, travel costs, and other various class associated expenses.
- crafting “Performance/Show” items (props, costume enhancements, set and stage items)
- "holo recordings" of performances to sell (decorative or healing/buffing items)
- undercover informant "spy" missions
- mission cumulative bonus for individual skill level and groupmates
- combat support features
- cantina salary (another spin on this idea is an option to have gambling machines in PC cantinas where the “house” could make a profit)
Who is watching me?
Need a system message when /watched and a "whois" /listwatch command that lists all players currently watching. WANT WANT WANT
Also suggested: /listwatch wounded and /listwatch fatigued – we can’t use /diag while dancing and it would help us know when it was safe to stop dancing with out ruining immersion.
Dancing Experience Modifier
Base XP earned on the Dance Knowledge skill bonus instead of the dance performed
Denial of Service Enhancements
Passive healing creates some unique problems for factioned, guilded, or griefed Dancers. We need some way to control who will be allowed to receive this service. The current system allows the patron an excessive amount of control over Dance healing and the Dancer very little.
/denyService faction:[Rebel|Imperial] and /denyService guild:[NAME] WANT WANT WANT
Also suggested: A toggle to /denyall with a Dancer Friends list, /denygroup, a Deny interface with editable fields and dropdown boxes
Falling
We need no hindrance in our ability to perform. Falls ruin choreographed routines at events and large shows. In cantina performances, dancers are often embarrassed and teased for falling. This is too high of a cost for a failure mechanic and is simply not fun for the majority of the community.
- Some dancers do however see falls as a roleplaying opportunity and would like to have the ability to stage a fall.
- Allow non-entertainers to do Dancer dances, but give them the fall rolls and no healing modifiers. There are many RP situations were it would be nice to have the patrons be able to dance. The falls could become the visible distinction between a trained and untrained dancer, while healing/buffing would remain the mechanical difference.
- Make a /fall [on/off] command like the current /bandflo [on/off] command. Then the dancer could decide if they thought this was a fun part of their dancing gameplay.
Notes: Musicians have no failure mechanic, the large majority of the community skips the falls entirely by equipping one of the various weapons that eliminate falls – they would rather look silly with a weapon equipped than fall!
Correct and Expand Cantina Registration
- Tie the registration option to all BF entertainer healing zones (including all small cantinas and remote Out Posts)
- Graphical indicator outside cantina (like a lit marquee sign)
- Empty PC cantinas currently default to manned at server reset
Faction Points
For Dancing while overt and/or healing overts WANT
Collision Detection
On all Cantina Furniture
Technique Abilities
Need to give XP bonus/reduced action cost
We're very excited about our new dances and "social dungeon"! Thank you!
Message Edited by Panthu on 04-13-2004 07:11 PM
Dancers/musicians self buffing issue
My sole reason for wanting this is to enhance the profession and make it more fun, benificial, and useful, that being said here is why I feel its needed.
The fact is doctors get to self buff all they want and heal those pools as well, no big combat unballance due to this, its SOP for a good majority of the character builds out there to get the first 6 stats buffed prior to doing anything combat related. If they are lucky or in a uber outfit then I guess they can get the other 3 too, one way or another. The majority of hard core PvP players do use the chef foods and mind buffs as it is, no point in rasing any concern here as I am sure the Devs will ballance things later as they have stated they are planing to do. Its already in the game.
I strongly feel this is an ability we should have, as it is I end up 90% of the time out with my group when they do pvp un buffed in the mind pools, and am generaly the first to go down. The only reason I have kept dancer this long after ending my hologrind is to help my PA members out. Its a small Pa and except for one or two still doing grinds I am the only one able to buff mind at all.
Searously, it is not easy to line up mind pool buffs, only once in all my time on Chilastra have I seen a Doctor/dancer/musician combo even trying to full buff people. It is difficult to get buffed, chef foods only act as a bandaid in this reguard, not a substitute. There is a shortage of dancers / musicians available to buff, not allot of those who do get to master stick with it for any real length of time, and IMO something about the Profesions does need changed to atract more people to play them and or keep them.
This would I think be one such change, and not one that requires a ton of code and art to pull off.
Also why should I as a dancer, since I took the time and interest to do this profession not be able to benifit as others do from my own abilities?
Honestly I would like to see one real good reason that can be backed up with facts, numbers, and mechanics why we cant have this. I see no were in the game were me being able to buff my mind as a dancer/riffleman grants me anything special that some one else could not also do, and do with out having the profession at that. All I would gain is time savings and utility by this, and thats something I think it sorely needs at this point.
Onto the next point
Combining the Buff, were Dancers and musicians can both buff all the stats.
This has got to be done to balalnce the buffing system in game, it will increase the number of people seeking buffs, increase the revinue to buff capable people, and enhance the professions to a level were more actual want to play them and keep them other than a hologrind or a curiousity, wanting to see what its like.
I do not feel at all it will undermine either profession, as it is dancers got the shaft when it comes to what we can buff and how we have to go about it compared to musicians. But I am not angry about that, I just want it to be fair across the board for both, and undo what I see as a terific case of bad judgement repaird to a more usable funtion in this game. Thats the lovely thing with software, one can fix it once its made.
we are not making a living buffing, not well at any rate to where this could stand up as a sole means of income enough to suport ones character well in the world to a fun level.
The current buffing system, in theory at least, requires one to seek out 3 professions to get completely buffed. This is a real hasle, beging for streamlining.
The number of people in game who can aply one or both of these buffs at any given time to the mind pool is considerably lower, especialy when you factor in the whilingness to be available to service others, our numbers are among some of the lowest, especialy if the figures given out a while back here were acurate.
The time it takes to buff a single client or group is considerable when checked agaisnt a doctor apling buffs, there by increasing the down time and less than fun aspec of the game, the wait factor. The only plus side is if we are good at putting on a show for them it doesnt seem so bad as sitting in line with a doctor.
Ok , now then by making it so both can fully buff the mind pool stats, we increase the number of available buffers, increase the money earned for all us buffing, and lower the time it takes to service some one or a group to a comparable level with Doctors. And we would remove the hasle of locating 2 people to buff the mind pool, there by increasing the number who would seek out such buffs in the first place. I see no draw back to it, and any fear that it would screw up either of the classes should by now be dispelled, all it could do is make both better by doing this, as we both would get increased abilities from it, and more business. I think it would also enhance both enough to atract more people to both professions,and increase the usefulness and fun of playing them especialy in groups or combined with other professions.
Each profession as it is is unique enough to stand on its own, dancers and musicians could co-exist easily being able to do the same thing, we allready do when it comes to healing people just fine. it would be a matter of taste and style as to how one wanted to go about it, not about which stats one could buff vs the other.
Thats my take on it any way.
Pendragon
Frostbear wrote:
I would like to see master dancers free of the burden of having to use our highest dance to buff with as well, no reason once I am master that I should not be able to buff with what ever I want for the sake of looking good while doing it (I have several good dances I never get to use any more because I am allways buffing people, this and not everyone likes the exotic dances.) . This should be a male dancer issue near the top of thier list, as it is exotic isn't very kind to the guys, lol.
This point, at least, should not be an issue. As a master you can use whatever dance you like to perform a buff. I personally have given a full 2hr buff with Basic2 in about 5 minutes (and I probably didn't need that long). In fact Tiaga did some research on this and pretty much figured out how it all worked. There's a post on this in the Entertainer forum, I believe, with all the gory details. I think there's a link to it in here as well. I got a little lost myself going through it, but he basically concluded that while higher level dances do buff at a faster rate, the more important factor was number of flourishes. So if you do lots of flourishes in a short time, it makes little difference which dance you use to buff. I now prefer using lower level dances to buff since I can do them without an action buff myself even doing lots of flourishes. Try it on a friend sometime and see what happens.
Shi'ann
Hot Pink Twi'lek of Mystery