Dancer Archive
Thread: A Reason to Perform, Not to Buff
PoetDancer wrote:
I should pay $15 to have fun presented to me by SOE, no matter what profession I choose, and no matter when I log on.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-30-2005 04:43 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
Well Goldy, being a dancer is easy when there are people who want to see us around.
The problem is, what is the point of being a dancer, when nobody is around?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-30-2005 05:16 PM
Well since entertainers are a socializers' class, the simple answer is, why would you expect there be anything to do as an entertainer when there is no one around? That would be like a combatant asking "What am I to do when there is nothing to fight?"
The answer to both these questions is -- if you want something other to do than what one profession can do, have 2 profs. When I started Dejah, she was an artisan/entertainer. Why did I do this? Because I figured, "Well, I'll craft when no one is around. Or go out surveying when the cantina is empty and come back later." (Or the like.)
I don't think any one profession can, or should, do it all. The main issue is the devs' abysmally stupid move of making all the combat profs cost way more and be near-useless if you don't dual-class. The solution to "no one is around" by the way, can't be "Group up." So LOL to that one... The whole reason I eventually had Dejah be a dancer/carbineer (then dancer/pistoleer) was to go solo missions or do other combat by myself when no one was around. If people were around I wanted to dance for them, not go hunt with them! This kind of subtle admixture of your profs seems entirely beyond the current dev team, so it is far less workable than it used to be, and that's a shame.
That said, however, I still think the solution to "What do I do when no one is around" is not to turn a social class into an achiever or explorer one, but rather, mix your classes so that you can do (successfully) both a social and some other sort of profession (dancer/tailor, dancer/BE, etc). The devs should definitely be taken to task for making such mixing and dabbling much harder and less effective now.. but I don't think they should be taken to task for not adding non-social elements to what is supposed to be a social profession.
C
SlickRiptide wrote:
The devs would answer you by saying that you don't NEED 24/7 dancer content. Not when you can spend some skill points on a bit of combat skill and go do Jabba's Palace. Not when you can take up a crafting profession and sell your wares. Not when you can (these days) buy a personal starship and explore the galaxy. They'd say that anyone who's playing as a "pure" combat or "pure" entertainer or "pure" anything is missing the point of the game system.
They'd say that, and pre-CU they'd have been right.
The problem is that they then turned around and deliberately, knowingly, purposefully (and oh-so-obviouslly so) made it so that mixing profs was no longer fully effective. Witness the poor slob who tries to mix a little combat with dancing and tailoring. Good luck. Or the person who tries to mix Ranger with, well, anything. Again, good luck. I have no dislike for these profs, but by screwing around with the combat skill costs and putting in a system where high level stuff will do things like one-shot-kill a level 1 artisan, the devs effectively PREVENT mixing of profs and have completely discouraged people from doing what they claim the system is designed to let you do.
Raph Koster was not wrong. His vision was never given a chance. They forced SWG live (the higher-ups, not Raph) with 1,001 bugs, and then they pushed him out of SWG lead-dev-ship before those bugs were finished and the game was "done." We'll never know what he would've done in terms of the hologrinders, or the various other issues that arose after Nov. 2003 or whenever it was that he left, because he was not around to deal with them. So we'll never know for sure if it would've worked or not. SOE put the game live with 1,001 bugs, and then when people screamed, they looked at how complex the design was and said, "Punt!" and retreated to known territory -- an EQ-in-space system instead of the original design. Simpler, less chance for bugs to crop up, less original of course.. and less amenable to mixing profs in the very way you are talking about.
As a result a LOT of people have switched to pure profs... pure entertainers, pure crafters, pure combatants. And thus they are only experiencing one type of content... and the devs are the ones pushing them to do this with all the dual-class combat template crap that they foisted on us.
So you are totally right that we shouldn't expect non-social content from the social classes, BUT, we should expect SOE to find some way to make it so (without spending money for another whole account) we can enjoy the different elements of the game in parallel (simultaneous mastery of different profs), rather than in series (by mastering/dropping/mastering/dropping). As the game stands now, simultaneous mastery of 2 different profs will leave you hampered in both of them, for the most part. That is SOE's fault and they need to do something about it.
The solution is to let people mix-and-match again, though... not to give all the content types to every prof. Just give all the prof types to every character and we can find the content ourselves.
C
Chessack wrote:
... and then they pushed him out of SWG lead-dev-ship before those bugs were finished and the game was "done."
Well sort of, I mean, the dude was promoted. He technically could have come down and given Tyrant heck about anything SWG anytime he wanted to (and I think he did for a while there).
Anyway, on the "Social" theme... yes, all a MUD player requires are people to talk to and a Social opportunity. That's why MUSHs and MUCKs worked for so many - virtual world to RP in, people to talk to, Socializers were set.
That's not how any of the 3D Social/non-Combat games work though. They come in two flavors: Reacting to the game while being Social (what I called "Candyland" in that other thread - TSO, ToonTown, Puzzle Pirates, AlterLife are all this type) and Acting in the game world to create content and activities (what I called "Doll House" - There, SL, and the one with a twist, Tale in the Desert fit in this type).
Outside of the realm of text, RP has not proven to be enough. So 3D Social MMOs either give players non-combat game challenge content to play with or give players powerful player content tools to make their own. Neither method rules out solo play, but it is expected that the players will want to interact because it is a Social game.
I agree with you and Eshie both about Holo's big plan - but for whatever reason, whether you say it didn't work or it was just given up on, either way, it's clearly over now. Combat levels have seen to that - the only way that old plan could be salvaged at all with Combat Levels (and to some extent, Jedi) would be to have separate skill point pools so you could still create your own ultimate playstyle in one char.
Since that doesn't seem to be happening though (and maybe even if it did), looking at other Social/non-Combat MMOs for our example of good solid Social gameplay I think is a very smart thing to do.
SlickRiptide wrote:
I don't completely disagree with what you're asking for, PD, I just don't see you giving any concrete examples of what it is that you want. "Keep me busy no matter when I login or how many players are around" doesn't give an entertainer Dev much to work with.
I was working on a meta-game of sorts surrounding the concept of "booking venues." Think of it as a revamp of entertainer missions. It allowed us to remain passive in our application, catered to our strengths as live performers, and allowed us to do productive, entertainment-style things, no matter when we were logged on. Here is a summary of how it went:
1) Meta Game -- We need one. I would enjoy something like this "system driven game" added to these professions very much:
a) Half hour shows every hour. The bottom half of the hour is free play. Free play continues until a band or performer "books" a venue. How?...
b) Sign up for the venue for up to two hours in advance of "showtime" in advance at the local terminals, listing every venue that has an open slot, with the band or troupe you want. Name your band, and have it on every starport terminal in the galaxy...including a listing in the scrolling marquee outside the venue.
c) Play for 30 minutes straight, and get BIG credits...on the order of 20,000 or more. Many have argued that since we do not have credit sinks, we don't deserve high pay. And if that is the reason we do not have good pay and a game to play, than I say we get some. Union cards, rentals (costumes and instruments that must be returned at a set time), and other imaginative sinks may be possible with a bit of thought.
d) Venue control is in place. No more sitting around and "existing" waiting to be needed. Performers are allowed "open stage" for the bottom half of the hour, and whenever a venue isn't booked. But when the venue is booked, and the performers begin their "shift," then everyone else stops performing until the show is done. Performers who are "unplugged" in this way can always go to the other venues to perform in the city, or to another city, or find a venue to book themselves.
e) The audience? They get DOUBLE of what we usually give in terms of a bonus (10% XP bonus becomes 20%, etc) when they see a real, booked in advanced show. This stresses the need for entertainers to be active, at the keys, and always moving and on the go to get "the big draw"...much like it is in the real entertainment business.
Sadly though, the opportunity for that type of game direction is gone.
The developers with this change want us to continue "selling /watch authorizations" as the reason we should get paid. They don't apparently want to give us a game that pays us through our own efforts. They want us to be paid exclusively by other players, for our efforts to type /inspire, and sort through a menu.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-30-2005 07:54 PM
And just to respond to the claim by the developers that we are a "social profession," and do not deserve a system game, because it is not, "social content," let me say this:
I don't see "Killer professions" denied PvE, because they have no reason to exist if they aren't PvPing. Because what does the "Killer" do if there are no PvP opportunities on? The only killer profession, Bounty Hunter, has some of the best,most rich, and most intricate"achiever," and "explorer" content available.
So if a killer profession can get exclusive content that has nothing to do with being a Bartle Killer, why does our entire game revolve around waiting for the 12 year olds to send us /tells saying "can u buff me?," because we are supposed to be Bartle Socializers?
The other professions that are suffering alongside us are the "explorer professions." Smuggler, Ranger, and Scout have no more mysteries to explore. And as such, they are wondering exactly how to keep on justifying their experience here in SWG, doing "achievement oriented" content, when their skills and in-game abilities fall far short of the mark.
SlickRiptide wrote:
Who knows, with that mindset maybe they WILL start to look at entertainer as a "character class" instead of a "profession". If that happens then we probably will see some of the "entertainer content" that PoetDancer wants. Which leads us again to "what should that content be if it's going to happen?"
Maybe.
But what a huge amount of work (inventing all that entertainer content) when they could've just left it so that hybridizing with 3 different professions was viable. A Master Artisan/Master TKA/Master Dancer wouldn't *need* solo entertainer content (there is more than enough solo artisan and TKA content to take up your soloing time)... and all they have to do is allow it (in terms of the skill points). No further work required.
Instead, they did the CU balance the cheap and easy way, and now they are stuck with a host of profs, not just ents but rangers, crafters, you name it, that were never meant to be the only thing you did in game (coupled with the fact that 99% of the content added in the last 8 months is strictly combat oriented, e.g. Kashyyyk) that have no content themselves.... and characters who can't (effectively) be hybridized to gain access to that content (yeah just try being a TKA/Dancer and doing the high level stuff on Kashyyyk... you end up a dead dancer).
So now because they did the prof balancing and skill points the cheap and easy way, they are going to have to spend a billion man-hours creating the really, REALLY hard stuff -- non-combat content. That takes hours, and is really hard to do. Whereas combat content takes a lot less time (it's just, at most, making up monsters and positioning them in an area) and is a lot less bug-prone.
You know my father used to have an expression -- "Cheap is expensive." They did the CU the cheap and easy way, and now they are going to end up having to dream up things like "entertainer content" as a result. What a mess.
C
Bless GarVa then, dear. Let's talk nice.
Because what you want, and what I need right now, do not have to be at odds.
It seems that you want to not have other, disrespectful players dictate your game to you.
Me? I want a game that doesn't base my satisfaction on pandering to disrespectful players.
You want the ability to say "no" to patrons.
I want the ability to have a game I can play when I say "no" to a patron.
So what can we come up with as dancers to give us something to do, other than dish out buffs?
Any ideas, dear?
PoetDancer wrote:
Bless GarVa then, dear. Let's talk nice.
Because what you want, and what I need right now, do not have to be at odds.
It seems that you want to not have other, disrespectful players dictate your game to you.
Me? I want a game that doesn't base my satisfaction on pandering to disrespectful players.
You want the ability to say "no" to patrons.
I want the ability to have a game I can play when I say "no" to a patron.
So what can we come up with as dancers to give us something to do, other than dish out buffs?
Any ideas, dear?